What's that Saw Nib Really For?

[James Owen]

Recently, there have been a number of threads on various woodworking forums, speculating on what the nib on the toe end of some hand saws is really for.

Here's an answer I haven't seen before:

"Sometimes a nib was provided near the end of the blade to retain the string of a sheath made by cutting a slit in a piece of wood."

In other words, it's to help hold the toe end of a blade guard on; the string on the heel end could go through the handle.

(Quote from Country Tools and How to Use Them, Percy W. Blandford, Dover Publication, 2006, page 79.)

[Stephen Shepherd]

James,

There are many theories, Henry Disston didn't know what they were for. As far as holding a 'tooth guard' on the front end, where is the one for the back end?

I have a several wooden saw tooth guards for many of my saws and they stay on just fine without any strings.

As for decoration, the average nib is not that decorative. There are some that are quite attractive, but their purpose is for starting a saw kerf.

It is a nicker nib. Simply turn the saw over, place your thumb in the proper location and either pull or push the saw over the edge and it will make a nick (kerf starter) where you can begin your cut.

Stephen

[Bob Strawn]

I suspect you are correct here, and it actually makes a certain amount of sense.

The cut starting theory never made sense to me, since all you have to do is start with a push stroke, The sighting theory never seemed to make sense either. The decoration theory is also lame.

Almost a year ago a pretty good discussion of this was done, Here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=58972)
on Sawmill Creek. It also had the theory that it was an indicator for nearing the end of a saw sweep. Also a reasonable theory, but I like the tooth guard theory the best.

And yes I have been lurking quietly here for a long time.

Bob

[Frank Drew]

It's only recently that I've seen these nibs; I certainly haven't seen every old saw in the world, but none I've seen had a nib. If they were really common I guess I missed them.

[Stephen Shepherd]

Here are a couple of my saws, both have nicker nibs, one is quite decorative and works well.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii105/shepherd1857/Dovetailsaws.jpg

As for the indication of the saw comming out of the kerf, the human body and its natural movement when sawing takes care of that. When I am sawing I am never watching if the saw will come out of the kerf, I can tell that by my stance and stroke.

And those tooth guards don't need no strings.

Stephen

[Bob Strawn]

Nice Nib! Does the nib actually make a better start than pushing the saw forward first?
I find that a short reverse stroke tends to make a very nice, and clean start. No flipping over the blade either. I may want to guide it with my thumb tip if I am cutting an angle, but it seems to do great. With a ryobi, it is just push and then pull. No need for a sharpened nib.

Bob

[Stephen Shepherd]

Bob,

Whether it is an Eastern or Western saw, using it backwards to start the saw kerf is a bad idea as it tends to dull the teeth.

When I was learning the trade, I was never allowed to use a tool backwards, e.g. pulling the saw backwards to start the stroke, keeping my plane flat on the reverse stroke or not lifting the rasp or file on the back stroke. I even lift the saw on the back stroke to preserve the teeth.

I spend time sharpening the teeth and other tools, I don't want to do anything to dull them before their time.

Stephen

[Bob Strawn]

With a nice Japanese saw it is a crime to not lift on the back stroke, it makes it easy to bind and damage the thin blade. However the backstroke is normally a waste of time, even though it dulls almost as much as the forward stroke. Still a short backstroke with the last few teeth of the saw does a great job of starting the cut, and it is the traditional Japanese method, at least according to the books and guides that I have read.

Bob

[James Owen]

James,

There are many theories, Henry Disston didn't know what they were for. As far as holding a 'tooth guard' on the front end, where is the one for the back end?

I have a several wooden saw tooth guards for many of my saws and they stay on just fine without any strings.

As for decoration, the average nib is not that decorative. There are some that are quite attractive, but their purpose is for starting a saw kerf.

It is a nicker nib. Simply turn the saw over, place your thumb in the proper location and either pull or push the saw over the edge and it will make a nick (kerf starter) where you can begin your cut.

Stephen

Stephen,

I'm not convinced that the explanation that the nib is for helping to hold a blade guard in place is the "right" answer, but I did want to share an explanation that I had never seen before.

I won't dispute that the nib can be used to start a kerf, but that technique seems rather inefficient to me, especially when you can use a light forward cut or two (with a Western saw) to establish the initial kerf line and then continue the cut in the normal fashion from there, thus avoiding having the turn the saw over twice.




Whether it is an Eastern or Western saw, using it backwards to start the saw kerf is a bad idea as it tends to dull the teeth....

I spend time sharpening the teeth and other tools, I don't want to do anything to dull them before their time.

I agree with you completely here: actions that unnecessarily dull the teeth (or cutting edge) cause unnecessary sharpening and reduce the working life of the saw/tool, and increase the time you spend away from woodworking.

__________

As an aside, a couple of days ago, I started your Compleat Early Nineteenth Century Woodworker. Fascinating book, compact explanations, with lots of useful and interesting information. Good reading so far. Thanks for taking the time to put all of that information together in one place!!

[Tom Veatch]

... using it backwards to start the saw kerf is a bad idea as it tends to dull the teeth.

When I was learning the trade, I was never allowed to use a tool backwards, e.g. pulling the saw backwards to start the stroke...

Something I'm totally missing here and I wish someone would explain in terms that even I could understand.

Speaking in terms of Western saws that cut on the push stroke, what is the difference between (a) "pulling the saw backwards to start the stroke" which reportedly dulls the teeth and (b) pulling the saw backwards to position it for the next forward stroke after the cut is established?

In my experience and observations, (b) is the normal mode of operation which I've not seen reported as damaging to the blade or dulling to the teeth. But how does the saw know the difference between operation (a) and operation (b)?

I don't remember ever seeing anyone lift the saw out of the kerf to position it for the next push stroke which is the only way I see to avoid pulling the saw backward through the kerf.

I confess that I always use a short backward stroke to start the cut in the manner I was taught about 50 years ago by my father - a carpenter by trade for most of his adult life.

[Ray Gardiner]

It's a worthwhile question, because there are so many theories.

Tool manufacturers tend to copy earlier designs, we see this happening
today with Lie Nielson, and many others. But as with anything that is
copied over and over again, small discrepancies and changes creep in, so
that the size, shape and placement of the nib may have changed over time.

I notice the front of the LN dovetail saw has a sharp small diameter hook
where your index finger "could" go. I don't see this on earlier saws. This
change has evolved is over a relatively short period. The top one is the
LN independance, The middle one is a Hearnshaw from about 1879-1884, The
bottom one is an Alexander (don't know the date).

This is an simple example of how tools evolve over time. And are continuing to evolve as we watch.


Henry Disston's reported view was the title of this post. If asked why then
are you still putting nibs on saws, I suspect his answer might have been
because we want them to look like old english saws. Lie Nielson might give the
same answer.

So, my answer is clear. It was marketting spin!. :rolleyes:

[Stephen Shepherd]

As an aside, a couple of days ago, I started your Compleat Early Nineteenth Century Woodworker. Fascinating book, compact explanations, with lots of useful and interesting information. Good reading so far. Thanks for taking the time to put all of that information together in one place!!

Thanks James,

Just disregard what I said about saw nibs in my book. That came out 27 years ago and I have changed my mind ;-}


Stephen

[Mike K Wenzloff]

...I notice the front of the LN dovetail saw has a sharp small diameter hook where your index finger "could" go. I don't see this on earlier saws. This change has evolved is over a relatively short period. The top one is the LN independance, The middle one is a Hearnshaw from about 1879-1884, The bottom one is an Alexander (don't know the date).

This is an simple example of how tools evolve over time. And are continuing to evolve as we watch...
Hi Ray,

Actually, the English saw which the Independence saws are styled after represent a fairly common shape that are at least as old as the Alexander saw you have.

The pronounced beak--what you call the hook--on the LN saw is a design going back into the 1700s. However, so is the more relaxed examples like the ones you compare it to. Basically, the beak shape means little to nothing as regards age.

Ah. Stephen and the nicker-nib. Hey Stephen, how's it going? Missed you last night. We talked about milk paint and epoxy...

Here's the deal on starting cuts using the nib. They can and do break off. Here's the deal on drawing back to start a cut. It works fine. For the life of the saw (i.e., until the saw has been sharpened to within an inch of its life).

When one draws back a saw to start a cut, it is generally over a relatively short distance in relation to the whole length. But even if not, even if it were over the full length, a couple strokes back will not hasten the dulling of the saw teeth. Simply won't do it.

For every few strokes backwards, just how many forward strokes using more force are usually given to actually cut a board? The act of sawing--once the kerf is started--dulls a saw far, far more. By the time any "dulling" occurs on the back-side of the teeth from dragging a saw back to start a cut, the main of the blade already needs attention with a triangular file (sharpened).

Sources are mixed about whether to do so or not. That is, older texts. I believe this issue is akin to setting planes on their sides, chisel blades on scrap wood, etc. Do it, don't do it. Doesn't matter.

Oh, and the real purpose of the nib? No one knows. Disston is the oldest secondary source I have ever seen. No primary sources. His theory is as good as anyone elses. None of us in lieu of a primary source will ever be able to say for certain. And I even have my own theory. It is of course the correct one...

Take care, Mike
hitting the forums for PMs...

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi Ray,

Actually, the English saw which the Independence saws are styled after represent a fairly common shape that are at least as old as the Alexander saw you have.

The pronounced beak--what you call the hook--on the LN saw is a design going back into the 1700s. However, so is the more relaxed examples like the ones you compare it to. Basically, the beak shape means little to nothing as regards age.



I thought that the independence was based on the Richard Groves & Sons dovetail saw that Patrick Leach
and Peter Taran used as the basis the the Independence, that later sold out to LN.

Here is a picture of a Richard Groves and Sons Dovetail Saw. Notice the "beak" is vertical. Compare this with the LN "beak"

I notice, that your's have a fairly "open" beak more like the earlier ones.

Can you point me towards a 1700's design that look like the LN beak.


I should attribute the sources here:-
The picture below is from toolexchange.
The Independence info comes from http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Premium+Backsaws+A+History+Lesson.aspx

[Larry Williams]

...It is a nicker nib. Simply turn the saw over, place your thumb in the proper location and either pull or push the saw over the edge and it will make a nick (kerf starter) where you can begin your cut.



This has never made sense to me. A saw kerf has width, the width of the set of the teeth plus the plate. A nib, because of the lack of set and the ground taper of the saw plate is quite thin compared to the width of the kerf. So does one nick the left side of the kerf with the nib? The right side? Both, by some guess as to the width of the kerf? A normal 26" hand saw can seem more than a little floppy and inaccurate when held by the handle and trying to place an accurate "nick" to start a cut. If I were to design a tool to make a starting nick for a cut, it'd be back by the handle where it could be easily controlled. It would also make a mark that would house the width of the kerf -- if the teeth of the saw can't fit in your starting nick it's hard for me to see any advantage to wrestling with a kind of scribe that's a couple feet from where a controlled grip is possible.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hi Ray,

Yes, the Independence followed the path to existance you mentioned. However, Groves made more than one style of beak.

One only needs to look at the 'keys" or early catalogues as far as documentation for "tighter" beaks. As well, on the Kenyon saws we reproduce, patterned after those from the later 1700s made by John Kenyon and found to be in the Seaton chest, also have tighter beaks than the ones you show.

Here is a relatively early saw with a very relaxed beak. Probably from the early 1800s.

http://wenzloffandsons.com/saws/images/smith_0003.jpg

If I am correct in stating this saw is from the early 1800s (and or the very end of the 1700s), it was made in a concurrent time frame as the Kenyon saws with a tighter beak. It is a Smith & Sons. Marked German Steel.

While the handle could be a replacement, it also may be original. If a replacement, I suspect the maker followed the original in general form as I have seen other saws by the same maker that had a very relaxed beak.

I don't have a dog in this "fight." The evidence is out there for tighter beaks and looser ones. Which came first? I dunno.

Take care, Mike

[kevin loftus]

I thought the nib was for sharpening your pencil. :D

[Ray Gardiner]

Here is a link to a posting on the oldtools archive, where Peter Taran mentions
the inspiration for the Independence handle design.

http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=13560

Either way, with the IT and LN you can no longer crook your index finger at right angles
you have to point down the side.

Yours on the other hand, look to be open enough that they could be gripped that way.

Anyway, my original point was that designs evolve over time. That may be
the real reason we no longer know what the nib was for.

Thanks for your comments.

[Bob Strawn]

Speaking in terms of Western saws that cut on the push stroke, what is the difference between (a) "pulling the saw backwards to start the stroke" which reportedly dulls the teeth and (b) pulling the saw backwards to position it for the next forward stroke after the cut is established?

In my experience and observations, (b) is the normal mode of operation which I've not seen reported as damaging to the blade or dulling to the teeth. But how does the saw know the difference between operation (a) and operation (b)?


Any time you run metal across wood, you are wearing the metal down in some portion relative to the wood. Because there is less resistance to the non cutting drag, the wear is lower than when you are cutting. Most experienced folk release pressure or slightly lift when drawing back. If you just barely lift it, you also tend to pull sawdust out of the cut, improving your speed of cutting quite a bit on a fine toothed saw.

When you run the blade, with pressure, in the not cutting direction, pull for Western, push for Japanese, you are wearing the blade in much higher portion relative to the amount of wood removed. The blade does not dull twice as fast, but it does dull quite a bit faster than if you lift it.

Files on the other hand, seem to dull at least twice as fast when pulled and pushed instead of being pushed only. I do not understand the reason for this, but it does seem to be the case. Since I have started using files correctly, they seem to last forever.

Bob

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hi Ray--while the beak isn't really there to hook a finger into per se, do what is best for you. Kinda like Mr. S and the nicker-nib...it really does work despite the mention by Larry about the different plate thickness. At least in softwoods and softer hardwoods (like Poplar and Cherry).

And I do agree saw handle shapes evolved. In many instances, makers strove to differentiate themselves from their contemporaries in sometimes small and other times more obvious ways.

Heck, when it comes down to it, Roman saws were not too different. But different nonetheless.

Take care, Mike
back to emails and PMs...

[Brian Kent]

I thought the nib was for sharpening your pencil. :D

Kevin, you are getting very close to a little known truth.

In addition to sharpening a pencil it was also used by very hardy carpenters to clean ear wax, before truck keys were invented. That's why carpenters never loaned out their best saws.

In the days when more people smoked in their shops, the nib was a place to skewer your lit butt so you wouldn't accidentally put a burn mark in your bench.

Ray Gardner's Disston quote also makes sense as a safety issue, because putting "Tots on a bull" is dangerous for the tots and it irritates the bull.

The first nib was invented when an otherwise fine carpenter dropped a brick on his saw. The next guy who copied his otherwise great design thought it was on purpose. From then on everybody else thought the old carpenters knew best.

Same thing happened a long way back when one of the first monks mis-spelled "celebrate" as "celebate" and monks have been faithfully copying the mis-spelling ever since.

[Ray Gardiner]

All good, well reasoned answers.

I can now reveal the real reason for the nib. It is a safety device.

It was originally to hold a riving knife, to stop kickback from over energetic
sawyers. :rolleyes:

[Stephen Shepherd]

"...Mr. S and the nicker-nib...it really does work despite the mention by Larry about the different plate thickness.

Take care, Mike"


Thanks Mike

Stephen

[David DeCristoforo]

"...It was originally to hold a riving knife..."

Wrong. The nib was used to assist in getting knots out of boot laces at the end of the work day. The reason this was on the end of a hand saw was so that the carpenter did not have to bend over to get the knots out since, by the end of the day his back was too sore to stay bent over that long. Therefore, many carpenters went to bed with their boots still on which pissed off their wives and caused much domestic strife. It was actually one such wife who came up with the idea of the nib in the first place. Once again, you guys need to study your history.

[kevin loftus]

[quote=Brian Kent;861181]Kevin, you are getting very close to a little known truth.

In addition to sharpening a pencil it was also used by very hardy carpenters to clean ear wax, before truck keys were invented. That's why carpenters never loaned out their best saws.

And a "Master Carpenter" could do both at the same time if the pencil was behind his ear. :D

[Don C Peterson]

There are some serious smart alecks hanging out at SMC! Is nothing sacred? I mean if you can't take saw nibs seriously, nothing will get through to you!!!;)

Keep it up, we all need a good chuckle now and then...

[James Mittlefehldt]

Just watched Roy Underhill from last season and his take is that the saw nib must remain a mystery. He said "those who answer do not know, and those who know do not answer."

[Mike Patrick]

Taken from Vintage saws website:

While there is much debate about the purpose of the "nib", Disston claimed that it was merely decorative.

[Stephen Shepherd]

I have heard that Henry Disston claimed he didn't know why there was a nib.

Stephen

[Ray Gardiner]

Just watched Roy Underhill from last season and his take is that the saw nib must remain a mystery. He said "those who answer do not know, and those who know do not answer."

Nice one, he is misquoting the Tao, (by Lao Tzu) an old chinese saying.

"Those who know do not speak, those who speak, do not know"

In the case of saw nibs, it's a good way of closing the book. Like all
unanswerable questions, there is merit in discussing the possibilities..

I just never suspected the saw nib was a chinese innovation...

[James Mittlefehldt]

Nice one, he is misquoting the Tao, (by Lao Tzu) an old chinese saying.

"Those who know do not speak, those who speak, do not know"

In the case of saw nibs, it's a good way of closing the book. Like all
unanswerable questions, there is merit in discussing the possibilities..

I just never suspected the saw nib was a chinese innovation...





Actually I suspect he was paraphrasing as the program was called the zen of woodworking, and he quoted quite a few people. Also alluded to various things that get discussed in woodworking forums a very thoughtful show.

It is a very thoughtful show what he says about sharpening is quite astute.