LV blade won't fit Stanley #4

[Tim Reagan]

Replace my blade to a thicker LV blade, but no matter how I adjust the frog the blade is to far forward to fit through the mouth. Is there other options besides widening the mouth? Which side to widen, front or back? At this point I can't even get my file through the mouth! Thanks for any suggestions.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Nope, no other options but to file the front of the mouth if you want the thicker blade to fit in this case. Does the blade need to be replaced? Did you try the plane with the stock blade before you replaced it? It may not need replacing at all.

[Jim Koepke]

Replace my blade to a thicker LV blade, but no matter how I adjust the frog the blade is to far forward to fit through the mouth. Is there other options besides widening the mouth? Which side to widen, front or back? At this point I can't even get my file through the mouth! Thanks for any suggestions.

A picture here may be of great help. Unless the blade is quite a bit thicker than the normal blades LV sells, you are likely encountering some other problem.

Before being able to construct a procedure to help, it would be best if I knew what type (date) of No. 4 we are working on. Mostly it depends on whether or not there is a screw adjustment for the frog.

Do you have a way to measure the thickness of the blade to make sure it is not thicker than the 3/32" advertised?

Depending on your file, it may be too big to fit the mouth. I would advise against trying to make the mouth wider until all other options have been given a chance.

There is most likely some other unseen event taking place like the cam wheel for the lateral adjuster not being seated.

jim

[Mike Henderson]

Some of the Stanley Bailey planes had a rib in the center of the frog mount (see pixs of a type 11 plane). The problem with the rib is that when you pull the frog back to get more room for the thicker iron, the iron is then supported on the rib and doesn't lay flat against the frog - and doesn't fit into the mouth.

If you have one of these Bailey planes, the only thing you can do is open the mouth - unless you want to try to grind back the rib.

Mike

[Joel Goodman]

I'm in a similar boat. I bought a thicker iron for a #7 but smarty pants me I wanted to see how thick I could go so I tested an ECE blade from another plane which I believed was .115 to .120 and it fit (although it was less than 2" wide.) So I purchased a Ray Iles carbon blade (TWW) which is supposed to be .115 and of course it's just a hair to thick to fit. Naturally I was so certain that I lapped the back and sharpened it up before I tested it . By the way it lapped really quickly and took a great edge. Now I guess I'll have to open the mouth a titch. Any reccomendations for type of file to use or tips for filing? I don't want to widen the mouth or screw it up. I think I'm talking about only 1/64th or so that I need to open it up. I'm too stubborn to just go back to the stock blade -- although it's tempting! Help.

[Charles Shenk]

I just ordered a LN replacement blade for a #7 and was told that the blade will be about .09 which hopefully will work through the stock mouth.

[Jim Koepke]

Now I guess I'll have to open the mouth a titch. Any reccomendations for type of file to use or tips for filing? I don't want to widen the mouth or screw it up. I think I'm talking about only 1/64th or so that I need to open it up. I'm too stubborn to just go back to the stock blade -- although it's tempting! Help.

I bought a Nicholson mill file for this, about 6", this one was chosen because it is thin enough to fit in the mouth. It takes a little care, because at an angle it is easy to hit both sides of the mouth and this is not what one wants to do. Before buying this, an auger safety file was used. Those are good because they have smooth sides so as to not cut into the sides of the work. Lie Nielsen carries them.

My use is mostly to put a little bevel on the front of the mouth. Not sure if it was a post here by Bob Smalser or if it was at Rexmill.com that explained about this. The plane is usually marked with a pencil on the sides with a bevel at 15° (degrees) so that it can be lined up level in a bench vice, then the mouth is checked for square. if it is not square, it is scribed. Then very carefully, the file is held level and being careful to keep the work even across the width, a bevel of about 15° is put on the front of the mouth.

One thought that comes to mind on this is the chip breaker should be backed up from the edge of the blade. It may be in the way. I would also loosen the frog and try the blade without the chip breaker to see where things fit together before doing much to alter the mouth.

jim

[Tim Reagan]

I may have found something. How close should the chipbreaker be to the blade edge? It was 1/32, but opened it to 3/32 and allowed the blade barely able to squeek by. My plane does not have a screw adjustment to move the frog. I will try to get a pic. Thanks for all the responses.

[Johnny Kleso]

I have a Toturial on my website how to back bevel the mouth for all blades..
https://home.comcast.net/~rexmill/planes101/tuneup/tuneup.htm

I open the front for my blades and very the back as you need crazy skills to file an exact 45* angle to match the frog..

Also use a straight edge to match your frog to the mouth back for max support of blade..

If your worried about opening the mouth dont be..
Unless you have a Type 1,2 or 3 all the other Stanley bench planes are very common....
Just check eBay you can find what you already have in a month or two I would bet..








Hoorar! to my friend Freddy Williams KIA Vietnam
http://stanleytools.home.comcast.net/hunter.jpg
The Same Old Grind

[Joel Goodman]

Didn't mean to hijack the thread but...

I tried the suggestion of putting the blade in without the chipbreaker to make sure it wasn't that and the blade is hitting the front of the mouth -- approx 1/64th inch above the sole of the plane (estimated) so if I file the mouth I guess I'll be taking off someplace a bit more than a 1/64th. I guess there's a reason why LN, LV and Hock make em 3/32nds!!

Thanks for the advice about the auger bit.

[Johnny Kleso]

Stanley blades are .060 and the LN (Stanley) is .093
The mouth of a Stanley is about .125 total and the LN (LN) blade is .140

So you have to open the mouth about .015 (1/64) for it to fit tight

For a fine smoother mouth you want about a .008 opening, for a heavy smoother abouth .015 and for a Jack .015 plus

Best way is to scribe a line on the bottom about .020 back so when you come to .015 you still have a witness mark to see..

Also
Mike H.

You cant just grind the rib..
The blade will hit the bottom of the mouth......

You can do a test I learned a few years back...
I was told to set frogs even with mouth back for better support..
I thought the blade would never touch because of bevel..
But since frog is at 45* the blade does rest on the mouth back..

Test:
Set blade to working depth..
Remove frog and set blade on frog and look how much of blade shows past bevel..

[Jim Koepke]

I have extra blades and will put one in bevel up without a chip breaker or with the chip breaker set way back from the edge. With the frog screws loosened enough to allow movement of the frog, set the blade so it sticks out the bottom. If this can not be done, then file the mouth.

just my 2¢,

jim

[Jake Helmboldt]

Lie-Nielsen makes blades (irons) in two different thicknesses; one for their planes which are a full 1/8" thick, and a thinner iron intended as a replacement for Stanley planes that is .095" thick (still thicker than stock).

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=512#note

Replacement blades for Bench Planes must be thinner to fit the original Stanley, Record or other makers' Bench Planes. If the blade is too thick, the yoke on your plane will not properly engage the slot in the Chipbreaker, The Chipbreaker Screw may not be long enough to install the Chipbreaker at all, but most important the mouth opening may not be large enough to allow the blade, or a shaving, to pass.
Therefore, Bench Plane blades ordered from the list above, identified by width, will be .095" thick, which will work fine on most Bench Planes. Blades of the same width, ordered as replacement blades for our own planes, identified by the tool number (e.g., BL-4) will be thicker (.125" for the 4 and 5, .140" for the 4-1/2 and .175" for the No. 8.)

I used the thicker 1/8" iron in my Stanley #4 and had to open the mouth and it cuts silky thin shavings. I did not have a problem with the yoke engaging.

[Johnny Kleso]

Thanks for the info Jake,
Looks like LN has made minor changes to blade sizes as I had a phone conversation with them about 5 years ago and was told they where all .140 execpt the no.8 that was 3/16 (.187)

I wonder if they will still grind custom blades sizes for free :)

[Tim Reagan]

Here is some pics of the #4. Unsure what year it is. Is 1/16-3/32 blade exposed to much? Again I'm requiring that much blade exposure to allow the blade to get through the mouth.
thanks

[Jim Koepke]

Here is some pics of the #4. Unsure what year it is. Is 1/16-3/32 blade exposed to much? Again I'm requiring that much blade exposure to allow the blade to get through the mouth.
thanks

Shouldn't be too much. Your plane was made between 1902 and approx 1908, it looks to be a type 9. The patent date on the lateral lever means it was likely in the early part of this time period.

It sounds like you are saying that the chip breaker is hitting the edge of the mouth. How much room is there between the blade and the mouth when just the frog and the blade are on the plane?

When in use, very little of the blade needs to stick below the surface, only a few thousands.

A set of feeler gauges comes in handy to check this clearance.

jim

[Tim Reagan]

I checked with a feeler, and I can't get the .002 in with the blade through the mouth without the breaker. The blade gets slightly hung up, then will go through the mouth. Should I just take a hair off the front of the mouth?

[Jim Koepke]

I checked with a feeler, and I can't get the .002 in with the blade through the mouth without the breaker. The blade gets slightly hung up, then will go through the mouth. Should I just take a hair off the front of the mouth?

With less than .002", some metal does need to be removed. As someone else suggested, you may want to check the front of the mouth with a square. I think they also mentioned scribing a witness line. You may also want to put a slight bevel on the inside of the front "lip" of the mouth.

Looking at the pictures you have posted, it looks like there may be some paint on the surface were the frog should be seating at the back of the mouth.

This area should be carefully checked to make sure the frog is seating correctly. If there is a build up of the japanning in this area, it could be changing the angle enough to cause a problem. The frog should seat without any rocking without the screws installed.

I have only found a few planes with a mouth as small as yours seems to be. If it is a duplicate plane size in my shop, it would be left as is and used for the times a delicate smoothing is needed. The thicker blade would go into one of the others with a bigger mouth for when hogging off a bit more wood is the objective.

I think Johnny Kleso said he sets his at about .008". I find this a little too tight for all but taking the thin wisps everyone loves. The problems is sometimes a bit thicker cut needs to be taken. I have my tightest mouth set for about .012". It will choke if the blade gets a little dull or if there is some tear out. With a tight mouth, thicker shavings will also clog.

My experience with a mouth at about .012", a sharp blade and taking shavings as thin as can be, grain reversal is not as much of a problem and tear out is avoided. This is with a Stanley No. 4 on some knotty red cedar. The blade in this plane is a type 11, the plane is a type 6.

Do you have the original blade and what kind of shape is that in?

jim

[Jim Koepke]

Probably will have more later...

When opening the mouth with a file, go slow. More can always be taken off later. If you take too much, it cannot be put back on.

jim

[Alex Yeilding]

Does the blade need to be replaced? Did you try the plane with the stock blade before you replaced it? It may not need replacing at all.
Tim, one addendum to Robert's note: If the reason for going to the thicker iron is stiffness and mass, you can achieve that with an after-market chipbreaker. I have been very pleased with the result of adding a Hock chipbreaker to an old, thin, but good iron.

[Tim Reagan]

The original blade seems fine, but didn't sharpen it. I just purchased a thicker LV blade at the last woodshow, because of what I read. I original does look like it has a fair amount to wire wheel work to make it look "pretty" from the person I bought it from. Maybe i should look at a chipbreaker, but now have the nicer blade. I actually was getting some nice shavings that were able to get through with the lv blade.

[Tim Reagan]

I will check the area behind the mouth. That brings up another question, when the frog is adjusted back, isn't the blade resting at the top of the frog and the mouth, but unsupported in th middle? Someone may need to correct my logic.

[Charles Shenk]

I will check the area behind the mouth. That brings up another question, when the frog is adjusted back, isn't the blade resting at the top of the frog and the mouth, but unsupported in th middle? Someone may need to correct my logic.

That may be true if the frog is positioned extremely "back" but since the blade has a bevel on it, the frog can be positioned slightly back and the blade will still sit flush since the bevel clears the mouth.

[Jim Koepke]

I will check the area behind the mouth. That brings up another question, when the frog is adjusted back, isn't the blade resting at the top of the frog and the mouth, but unsupported in th middle? Someone may need to correct my logic.

If light can be seen between the blade and the frog, something may be wrong. I have had this happen with chip breakers that have too much "action" or they have been bent. If the opening of the mouth is in front of the surface of the frog, then the frog is likely too far back.

There are a few ways of setting the frog all the way back. One is just sighting down the surface of the frog. Others involve using a plane blade with the frog screws just loose enough to allow for some movement, not much more than a half turn. This requires care handling the blade. If you can find an old blade, dull the edge a bit. With the bevel up, place the blade on the frog and slide it through the mouth. With a little trial and error, you should be able to slide the frog back and fourth and see when the frog surface is lined up as straight as possible with the mouth edge. At this point, carefully remove the blade and tighten the frog screws. Turn one a little, then the other. Keep alternating until both screws are tight. Set the blade on the frog again with the bevel up. Slide it down the frog. it should slide through the mouth without catching on the lip of the mouth. Repeat the process as needed.

For a little advanced adjustment, with a blade that is known to be ground perfectly square, set the blade to just before it cuts. The blade should be on the frog, centered and the lateral adjuster should be centered. While pushing the plane along a piece of wood, slowly lower the blade until it just starts to cut.
If it is cutting evenly across the blade, that is fantastic. If it is cutting along just one side, give the lateral adjuster a little tweak toward the side that is cutting. (Note: this is for a Stanley plane. Other makers may have the pivot point of the lateral adjuster different.)
Keep working with this until the blade is cutting even shavings across the width at its thinest setting.

If you are only getting shavings at the center, your blade may be slightly convex or you may want to put a straight edge across the width of your plane's sole.

Look how much adjustment to the lateral lever had to be made. If it is just a little, then life is good. If it took a lot, then look at the blade from the bottom of the plane. If it looks like it is square to the mouth, then the frog may need a little rotation. If it looks angled to the edge of the mouth, check the mouth for square.

These trial and errors is how one learns to fettle a plane.

It seems like a lot, but when you learn it, your planes will get into shape a lot faster.

If you really catch the bug, you will be carrying a small scrap of wood and a 6" straight edge along with a pocket screwdriver, tape measure and magnifying glass to the swap meets.

jim

[Tim Reagan]

Good point, Charles. It may scratch the bevel slightly.
thanks for the tutorial for fine tuning the frog Jim.

[Joel Goodman]

First thanks to all the experts who share so frequently on this forum. It's a fantastic resource.
I wrote in earlier about the #7 with the too thick replacement blade but...
but very careful positioning the frog even with the bevel on the back of the mouth opening and testing with the trick (learned here) of sliding the blade bevel up along the frog through the mouth opening(that way you don't trash the blade if it doesn't fit) I've got the blade working. The mouth opening is a tiny sliver of light and the blade must be exactly square. But the plane works for fine shavings. It appears as if there is some paint or japanning or poss just corrosion on the beveled back of the mouth opening. I would like to clean this up and hopefully this will open the mouth just enough. I was thinking of clamping a 45 degree guide block on the sole to keep the file at 45 degrees. I am afraid that if I use the frog as a guide the lateral adjustment will get in the way. What do those who know say? Also what is the best amount of mouth opening to aim for in a jointer? This weekend I'll get a new set of feeler gauges -- mine have vanished.

Thanks again.

[Jim Koepke]

I was thinking of clamping a 45 degree guide block on the sole to keep the file at 45 degrees. I am afraid that if I use the frog as a guide the lateral adjustment will get in the way. What do those who know say? Also what is the best amount of mouth opening to aim for in a jointer? This weekend I'll get a new set of feeler gauges -- mine have vanished.

If possible, have some junk parts around. With a pin punch and a few blocks of wood for support, it is fairly easy to remove the lateral adjuster.

Having a frog salvaged from a piece of junk means you do not have to worry. Use the junk frog as a guide. Putting a couple of layers of duct tape on a good frog will offer some protection from an errant file.

Best amount of opening is a moving target. As I said in a previous post, if you take off too little, then you can take off a little more. Once it is off, it will not go back on.

My guess for a joiner would be about .015" for a minimum starting point.

One really is not taking delicate shavings with a joiner. An opening of .015" would likely clog a bit if it is being used after a scrub plane.

Though today found me working some small rough cut pieces with a No. 4 with an opening of about .012" and it did fine. These pieces were less than 4" long. There was also a plane with a much wider mouth opening used on the pieces when needed.

For my shop, there are a few No. 4 size planes and two No. 5 size planes. There is usually one with the mouth set tight for fine work and one with the mouth set open for rough work.

With a tight mouth, one will want to sharpen the blade more often to avoid clogging.

Gosh, this thread about mouth adjustments is getting to be the length of a small book. My wife usually only has two words on mouth adjustments...


Shut It!!!

jim