Kitchen cabinet installation question

[Rob Blaustein]

I'm installing some base cabinets in a kitchen and have a few questions. The cabinets are the kind where the sides go down to the floor and are notched to accept a toekick. So they don't sit on a base, and the bottom shelf is around 3 1/2 inches from the floor. The cabinet that is at the left end of the run is only 12" wide (all are 24" deep) and immediately to its right is a dishwasher. I can hit one stud in the back so will throw some screws in there (the back is 5/8" thick). But there is nothing to attach the cabinet to on either side and I'm concerned that those screws in the back won't be enough to keep it in place and prevent it from rotating a bit. The only thing I can think of is putting some pocket hole screws on the right side at the bottom and screwing it down to the floor. It won't be visible since it will be covered by the dishwasher. Is that what people would do? Any other suggestions? In general, when installing these types of cabinets, do people attach them to the floor or only to the back wall?
--Rob

[tom holton]

My guys in the field will sometimes toe-screw into the subfloor thru the front of the toekick to keep it from twisting. This will be covered with your toekick mouldings, so no big deal. Once the countertops are in place, it wont budge.

TOm

[David DeCristoforo]

http://www.ameribestfasteners.com/SPRING.gif

[Jim Becker]

You could also use wall anchors if you feel you need additional support for that solitary cabinet. To make it simple you can drill a hole in the "nailer" that is biger than your anchor, put it in the wall and then use a fender washer to hold the cabinet securely to the wall with the screw. This is fine for base cabinets since they have a lot of other support.

I have a "single" like that to the left of the range. Fortunately, I was able to hit more than one stud, but would have used the above technique if necessary.

[Dave Sabo]

What's to the left of the cabinet at "the left end of the run" ?

[Dave Sabo]

Where is the stud behind the 12" cab? Left, center , right? What brand of dishwasher are you using? How deep is it? Why not switch the DW position?

[Joe Mioux]

You could also use wall anchors if you feel you need additional support for that solitary cabinet. To make it simple you can drill a hole in the "nailer" that is biger than your anchor, put it in the wall and then use a fender washer to hold the cabinet securely to the wall with the screw. This is fine for base cabinets since they have a lot of other support.

I have a "single" like that to the left of the range. Fortunately, I was able to hit more than one stud, but would have used the above technique if necessary.

HA!

Even though you photoshopped your AV, we know you are still wearing a tie!

[Paul Girouard]

Set the cabinet on the floor exactly where it is to be set , mark a line across the front of the toe kick , remove cabinet , deduct the thickness of the toe kick front , screw down a 2x4 block to the floor ( UNLESS YOU HAVE RADIENT IN FLOOR HEAT) . Then place cabinet back in place , screw to wall thru the back / screw cleat into that one stud. Screw thru front of toe kick into your backing / 2x4.

You could mark the side of the toe kick as well and cut the block exactly to width , but the screw you put thru the T/S ( Toe Space) front will hold it just as well , with the added strength the sub top will provide.

BTW is that REALLY Jim Becker? Or another snagged off the net avatar? His last one sure looked like Johnny Carson to me, although it could be Mister Becker in both photos :confused:

[Jim O'Dell]

Paul beat me to it. I'd use a combination of what has been said, but I'd use a 2X4 block behind the toe kick to secure the bottom. Jim.

[Matt Ocel]

Rob -

What Tom Said and/or what Paul said will work just fine.

[Rob Blaustein]

There is no toekick there yet, I was planning to install it later. So there's nothing to screw into, there's just space under the bottom shelf. Sounds like wall anchors or my pocket screw idea might be the best bets.

Dave-just to the left of that cab is a few inches of space, and then a door, but I can't hit the stud that frames the door. The stud I can hit is to the right of center, closer to the right end of the cab. I think it would be awkward putting the dishwasher there and its placement has already generated considerable discussion since it is separated from the sink cab by another cabinet (meaning we will have to run the plumbing through that intervening cabinet). But my wife insisted, so it's staying there.

Paul's idea is interesting--something my wife actually suggested but we thought pocket screws through the side wall would be easier. But it raises another question: I've built a few bases for cabinets in the past and I've always used plywood rather than 2x4s because of the issue of dimensional stability and moisture changes. Is it ok to use 2x4s on edge as a base? My sense was that you could have appreciable changes in width with swings in humidity (up to 1/16th to an 1/8th of an inch) and that movement could have bad effects on a stone countertop that is caulked to the back wall.

[Paul Girouard]

So there's no toe space FRONT ? You said the side go to the floor , GENERALLY there is at least a flimsy front piece??

The 2x4 will be fine , how wet is this piece going to get on the floor behind the base , or what ever you finish that T/S with?

You could rip it down a 1/8" thinner than the toe space height.

But My idea was block on the floor behind the EXISTING T/S front and cut short of either end. But still even if you cut it tight it should never get wet enough to become a issue.

Can you post a photo of this cabinet ? There has to be some clearer way to explain what you want to do.

IF there is no front on ANY of these cabinet you maybe should be installing something , what did they provide some 1/4 " or thinner door skin to finish the T/S fronts with?

[Paul Girouard]

And yes normally toe spaces are made of plywood 3/4" a LOT of architects draw 2x4 T/S in details , BUT few IF any ( none I've worked with) really expect a cabinet shop to use 2x4's front ,back and stretcher cleats , in the construction of there T/S's.


I was talking about one block as a screw cleat to ENTIRE T/S's built out of 2x4's.

[Rob Blaustein]

Paul-these are cabinets that we are re-cycyling from a friend's kitchen renovation--they are only a few years old and are in good shape. Several of the toe kicks were removed when their contractor removed the cabs. My plan is to rip some 3/4 ply, paint to match and install later.

For toe kicks on cabinets like these--do people generally put one on each cab, or put one long continuous piece spanning a run of cabinets?

Sorry for lack of photos--I'm not at the place we're doing this right now but will be back this weekend and will try to snap a few to post if necessary.

[Matt Ocel]

Rob -

"Box" cabinets typically come with 1/4 x 8' lengths of toe kick.

[Greg Sznajdruk]

You can buy Toe Kick at the BORG prefinished in 8 foot length. Depends on your cabinets they are white, black or woodgrain.

Try to span as many cabinets as you can with the toe kick.

[Mike Goetzke]

Rob - I've never installed kitchen cabinets, but, on one of the home improvement shows I saw a neat trick. They used it for upper cabinets but it should work for you too. At the height that you are going to apply your fasteners they cut the drywall out (to expose the studs) in a long horizontal strip the length of all the cabinets and attached a 1/2" x 4" board. This way they could apply fasteners anywhere and not have to worry about hitting a stud.

Mike

[Mike Gabbay]

Rob - since the cabinet is covering the drywall in the back, I'd cut out the dry wall and install a horizontal nailer between studs. Then you can put screws in on both sides of the cabinet to the wall.

A good framing carpenter will put nailers in the kitchen and bathrooms for this very reason. Since the cabinets cover up the dry wall you only need to patch and tape/mud it. Nothing fancy.

[Mike Goetzke]

Rob - since the cabinet is covering the drywall in the back, I'd cut out the dry wall and install a horizontal nailer between studs. Then you can put screws in on both sides of the cabinet to the wall.

A good framing carpenter will put nailers in the kitchen and bathrooms for this very reason. Since the cabinets cover up the dry wall you only need to patch and tape/mud it. Nothing fancy.

Isn't this what I just said???:D

[Rob Blaustein]

Mike and Mike, Yes, I know about that trick. To install the blocking between 2 studs we would have to take out a strip of drywall that extents to beyond the cabinet (all the way to the stud framing the door). In principle that's not too hard to do--we've been doing lots of drywall work in there already and can do it, but we're getting tired of it and it would be more work than some of the other suggestions at this point. But thanks for throwing it out there. Rob

[Rob Blaustein]

You can buy Toe Kick at the BORG prefinished in 8 foot length. Depends on your cabinets they are white, black or woodgrain.

Try to span as many cabinets as you can with the toe kick.

My wife thought that too. That may be a time saver. The cabs are white though with a bit of tint but the difference might not be noticeable down there. Any idea how much they cost? It would certainly save us the trouble of priming and painting more strips of ply.

[Greg Sznajdruk]

Installing a nailer is a good idea if it on an interior wall. If wall is exterior then dealing with the insulation and vapour barrier can be a royal pain. Espcially re-sealing the vapour barrier.

Greg

[Rob Blaustein]

Installing a nailer is a good idea if it on an interior wall. If wall is exterior then dealing with the insulation and vapour barrier can be a royal pain. Espcially re-sealing the vapour barrier.

Greg

One of the reasons I didn't want to mess with that option. It is an exterior wall and we had to repair drywall on another exterior wall and deal with exactly the issues you mentioned (in our case there is ridgid foam insulation and vapor barrier). It's doable, but a little more tedious than I'd like given all the other carpentry things I have to do in that kitchen (while juggling a 2 yr old and 6 month old...).

[David DeCristoforo]

"...I didn't want to mess with that option....It's doable, but a little more tedious..."

Rob, you could just apply the 1/2" "nailer" right over the drywall. The only thing that would be affected would be the "net depth" of the bases which would now be 24.5". All other things being equal, you probably would not notice the diff. May not work depending on the cabinet layout but might be worth a thought....

[Steve Clardy]

Well on the right lower side of the cabinet, you could drill at an angle into the cab side/leg and put in a 3" screw into the lower wall plate. [From within the area for the dishwasher]

This, along with the one attaching point you have on the back of the cabinet, will keep it in place.
After the counter top is installed, that cabinet isn't going anywhere.

[David DeCristoforo]

"After the counter top is installed, that cabinet isn't going anywhere."

There it is... At least not unless there is a really big storm. You don't live in tornado country do you. Because if you do that cabinet, being secured "only" by the countertop and one screw could get sucked right out of the house.....

[Rob Blaustein]

Well on the right lower side of the cabinet, you could drill at an angle into the cab side/leg and put in a 3" screw into the lower wall plate. [From within the area for the dishwasher]

This, along with the one attaching point you have on the back of the cabinet, will keep it in place.
After the counter top is installed, that cabinet isn't going anywhere.

Come to think of it, I might also be able to attach to that lower wall plate through the back of the cabinet from under the bottom shelf, by reaching through the kick space. I've used that wall plate (is that the sill plate?) for attaching bases, so why not here. Or just do what you suggest. I have the portable Kreg pocket hole gizmo (rocket?) that came with the kit and it has been handy for this sort of thing. I have some 2 1/2" Kreg pocket screws too.

No tornadoes, but the occasional wolf (and you know how they can huff, and puff, and...)

Thanks for all the replies!

[Steve Clardy]

Come to think of it, I might also be able to attach to that lower wall plate through the back of the cabinet from under the bottom shelf, by reaching through the kick space. I've used that wall plate (is that the sill plate?) for attaching bases, so why not here. Or just do what you suggest. I have the portable Kreg pocket hole gizmo (rocket?) that came with the kit and it has been handy for this sort of thing. I have some 2 1/2" Kreg pocket screws too.

No tornadoes, but the occasional wolf (and you know how they can huff, and puff, and...)

Thanks for all the replies!


Yes. Sill plate. I wuz brain dead at that moment. :rolleyes:

I've done framing, but I'm not a framer. Takes me a while to remember those names. :)

[Paul Girouard]

lower wall plate through the back of the cabinet from under the bottom shelf, by reaching through the kick space. I've used that wall plate (is that the sill plate?)



That's closer to the "right" name , than sill plate.

The Sill plate is the one in contact with the concrete foundation , generally under the box sill or rim joist.

On a wall , whether that wall is on a wood sub floor OR a concrete slab , the "lower plate " is generally called the "bottom plate" , the most upper plate is called the "Top Plate" , the other plate at the top of the wall is the "Sub Plate" or "Sub-Top Plate".

I hope you've got those cabinet bases set , or your fired :eek: :eek: , we coulda framed half of a small house in the time it's taken to flesh this out :D

Plus "set" a large kitchen cabinet job! Maybe even built a end table or some such. Ain't the Internet grand !

[Rob Blaustein]

I hope you've got those cabinet bases set , or your fired :eek: :eek: , we coulda framed half of a small house in the time it's taken to flesh this out :D

Plus "set" a large kitchen cabinet job! Maybe even built a end table or some such. Ain't the Internet grand !

Funny that you mention that. Every time I have to do even a small thing, like build a simple plywood base and level it, it takes me a long time, and we joke that a real carpenter would have finished the job in the time it takes me to set everything up. We are pretty much learning carpentry as we go. And it doesn't help that the house we're fixing up is 2 hrs from where we live. With the price of gas these days, and all the trips back and forth, I could have hired someone local to do it all and saved money. But where's the fun in that...

[Paul Girouard]

Funny that you mention that. Every time I have to do even a small thing, like build a simple plywood base and level it, it takes me a long time, and we joke that a real carpenter would have finished the job in the time it takes me to set everything up. We are pretty much learning carpentry as we go. And it doesn't help that the house we're fixing up is 2 hrs from where we live. With the price of gas these days, and all the trips back and forth, I could have hired someone local to do it all and saved money. But where's the fun in that...



That's the "Can do" spirit, are you a ex-Seabee? :D

Good luck.

[Gary Lange]

I have been reading this thread with interest and thinking about what I would do to solve this problem. I would first replace all the toe kicks in the base of the cabinets and get them ready for installation. This will later be covered with a continuous piece that you can get at any of the Lowe's or Home Depots in your area. Now for the backs of the cabinets. I would mark a level line along the wall where the cabinets are going to be installed. This is done to make sure they are installed level. Now the creative part of my thinking. Since you are having trouble being able to hit the studs while mounting the cabinets I would drop another level line down one inch from the first and another two inches below this line. Cut this two inch section out staying about one inch in the each end and replace it with a two inch strip of 1/2" plywood screwed to the studs. You now have a solid strip to attach your cabinets to and your installation with go in level as you follow the line you made earlier. This can also be done on the top cabinets where two strips one top and on bottom installed to screw to. Be sure not to put the strip across the stove opening as that cabinet is a little short to cover it. This is just what I think I would do to make it a clean neat installation that isn't going to twist or come loose later.

[Dave Sabo]

OK, I'm suprised no one has mentioned the "cheap, fast & easy way"

You could just get a tube of liquid nail, apply it to the back of the nailer and back edge of the left sidewall, install it as normal and after it sets up it's going to be difficult to move.