Problem(s) with my brand new router table; advice, suggestions appreciated

[Daniel Hillmer]

Hi,

I have a problem with my new router table and thought I could get some advice - opinions. I mounted a porter cable 7518 router on it, using a Woodpeck router lift. The table top is either MDF or HDF with some kind of Formica as a surface. It has an extruded aluminum angle bracket which mounts to the table top, onto which mounts the two separate aluminum backed fence pieces. The fence has plastic on the front, which I guide the stock along.

The problem is, I can not get the fence squared up. So I removed the fence assembly from table, removed the fence pieces from the extruded aluminum angle mounting bracket to check it out. I put a square on the outside 90 degree bend of the bracket using my Starrett Precision Combination Square - accurate to .00001”. Down the length of the bracket, the 90 degree bend in the bracket is out of square. I measured the gap in a few places by placing a shim in the gap between the bracket and the square, and saw approximately a .015 inch gap (about one 1/64th of an inch) down most of the length of the bracket.

What I’d like to know is, is this normal for this kind of a router table? If it is, what would you experienced woodworkers do – just shim it out somehow to make it square? Or should I contact the manufacturer to see if they can repair or replace the fence assembly? What’s normal for a router table fence – is .015 out of square common? Or should it be within .002 or .005, something like that?

My stock is wobbly against the fence when I run it across the bit, and my tongue and groove joints I am trying to make with the Frued 99-036 tongue and groove router bit kit to make my kitchen cabinets are not square. Sometimes the stock get’s stuck in the router bit and I have to shut the router off quick.

Another problem is that the two fence pieces when attached to the angle bracket and butted up against each other are not flush – this is right where I come to the fence gap when I have the router bit at the gap either between the two fence pieces when I gap the fence, or when the
fence pieces are butted to gether. So when I run stock across one side of the fence, it catches on the other fence and won’t go across the fence unless I wiggle the stock a bit while milling. Also, when I look at the back of the fence-bracket assembly, I can see a gap between the back of one of the fences and the bracket in the area close to where the bit gap is – the bolts are not puling the fence flush against the bracket. Either the two fence sections are not the same thickness, or the bracket is causing them not to be flush. Maybe both. When I run a piece of stock across the fence, it sometimes gets caught on the high end of the other fence piece, and sometimes my stock dangerously shoots out fast off the router table. Again, is this normal for a router table and would you guys just shim this out? Or should I ask for a new fence?

The third problem which I am not sure is a problem, after checking the table top with a straightedge, the center of the table dips down about .022 inches. The person at the manufacturer told me today that this is normal – that all router tables are made that way, and that this is the way it’s supposed to be. Is this true? I’m just concerned that if I place a new fence on the table, will it cause problems with the new fence or bend it? I have the Porter Cable 7518 – could the router cause the center of the table to sag?

Thanks for any input.

[Jim Becker]

On your third point, a properly supported surface is not going to sag under the weight of the router. It might be helpful if you post the make and model of the router top you bought so folks with experience can comment more specifically.

[Daniel Hillmer]

It’s the Supreme Router Table package, which I purchased at the Detroit woodworking show in Novi, MI from Peachtree Woodworking.

I don't have a photograph of it yet, but I did find via search the exact same model I own in another post - there is a photo of the table in the post...

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=16151

(http://www.sawmillcreek.org/search.php?searchid=2147918)

[Jude Tuliszewski]

If it were me I would want the table top replaced, because when running stock through by hand their will be slight differences in the pressure applied. With that sag in the table it will wind up giving you inconsistent results and put you in the looney bin :eek:. JMHO

[Johnny Kleso]

The out of square fence is un-exceptable in my book...

[Mike Goetzke]

I think I would not use the RT till you have your issues solved. If you have to turn the power off in the middle of a cut something is seriously wrong.

You should shim the two fences to be almost perfectly perpendicular to the table. You should also align the two fence halves so that the are in straight alignment with each other.


Mike

[Daniel Hillmer]

The way she explained it to me on the phone, was that router tables are supposed to be dipped in the middle like mine, because the Rousseu plate and many other router plates are domed and that there is supposed to be a dip in the table to accommodate the domed router plate.

I should say that the table came with the Rousseau plate, but I purchased separately from Woodpeckers and installed the woodpecker router lift instead and did not use the Rousseau. I did call them before I did it because I had to slightly modify the flange – lip where the Woodpecker lift rests on, and shave off a bit of wood so that the woodpecker would fit flush to the table (it’s thicker than the Rousseau plate). They said this was ok, that lots of folks install lifts in their tables.

[Peter Quinn]

Doesn't sound right to me. When I tighten down the knobs on my Jessum fence its perpendicular to the table and runs in a straight line along its length. My fence is an anodized aluminum angle design with aluminum face plates to which I mount a variety of shop made mdf face plates. I have checked the table flatness and fence with a 36" machinists straight edge accurate to within .003" over its length, and you can barely slip a .002" or .003" feeler gauge anywhere over 30". I have checked the perpendicular relationship of the fence and table with a precise machinist square and its nearly perfect at any point over its length. I have made my own fences that usually require a shim here or a tweak there, but I think the whole point of buying a good fence made in a machine shop is to avoid that hassle.

That whole bit about the plates with a crown and tables with dips sounds like whooy! Sounds more like the construction details for the floor at the carnival fun house than a good idea for a precision wood working station. What you need is a flat rigid plate hanging from a flat rigid table top. I'd guess the wood pecker's lift plate is flat and rigid based on the items I have bought from them being precise and built like tanks.

Relative to wood catching on the leading edge of the out feed fence it doesn't take much variation in either fence alignment or stock flatness to snag the leading edge of the stock and cause chatter or create feeding problems. For split fence set ups on the router or shaper I typically put a slight chamfer or radius on the out feed fences leading edge to eliminate any problems with minor misalignment. This wont solve gross issues with fence flatness but it will stop minor alignment issues from becoming a problem while spinning a live cutter and feeding stock.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Yes the more I use and look at this table, the more disappointed I am with it and am beginning to think I got ripped off. Because all along, I thought I was doing something wrong when feeding stock into the bit, because about every other part either get’s shot off the top of the table like a rocket, or it get's jammed between the bit and the fence. Now I find I’m doing everything right and I got a lemon. When she told me that the dip in the table is supposed to be there, her explanation did not sound right to me either, but I thought I should first give her the benefit of the doubt and check here first, to make sure I was not missing something.

I paid them $380.00 for this router table, and for that much money, for just an MDF - Formica tabletop with an extruded aluminum (not machined) fence, I thought they would at least inspect these items for squareness before selling them. I mean it’s not like this is a cast iron table – it’s MDF and aluminum, and the material cost is obviously low compared to a steel table, there is so much profit in it, so the least they could include is some decent inspection.

I know my stock is square, because I have a Grizzly 8 inch jointer and I can get my rails and stiles almost perfectly square according to my Starrett – very happy with the Grizzly tools that’s for sure. My Woodpeckers router lift plate is perfectly flat by the way – I just checked that.

By the way, do you think $380.00 is excessive for an MDF router table? Did I get hornswoggled here? Or is this about the going rate these days for an MDF router table?

[Jeff Bratt]

I second all the above opinions. Stock wobbling and hanging up on the fence signs of potentially serious trouble.

The reason the router plates are slightly domed is that a slight dome is better than a slight sag. Router tables do NOT sag to compensate for a domed router plate. And the amounts we are talking about are less than .005". You should get a new table (or make your own)...

... Unless you can shim things to level the table and to square the fence. (Seems like you shouldn't have to do this though.) I used teflon tape under my router fence to square it to the table top. (Link to Shop page (http://home.san.rr.com/jeffnann/WoodWorking/Shop/Shop.html) - scroll down to Router Table.)

MDF covered with a laminate is fine for a router table top (if it's thick enough) but it should be flat. If your stock wobbles when sliding along the fence, are your fence faces flat and aligned with each other?

[Daniel Hillmer]

The table itself is 1.5 inches thick and the lip which is the inset for the lift is an inch thick - is that thick enough to prevent warpage, or should they have made it thicker?

No, the fences do not line up as described in original post above. I did not check the fence faces flatness, but thought the point is moot since it’s impossible to get them lined up unless I put somewhere between a .010 to .020 shim on the back of one fence piece. I feel I should not have to be shimming out a newly purchased $380.00 table - it’s not right.

I since have spoken with the retailer, they said to go ahead and ship the fence and the out-of-square fence angle mounting bracket back and they will probably replace it. I just now shipped them back.

What I’m more worried about, is that they say it’s OK if the table dips .022 inches in center and that once I get a new fence all will be well. Does this sound like a reasonable offer? Or do you think I should ship them the table top back to them as well? I'm thinking if I have a new square fence, what good is it on a warped table? I'm afraid the new fence will get bent over time if it's bolted to the top of a warped table.

[glenn bradley]

The way she explained it to me on the phone, was that router tables are supposed to be dipped in the middle like mine, because the Rousseu plate and many other router plates are domed and that there is supposed to be a dip in the table to accommodate the domed router plate.

Not! JMHO but it really bugs me when this whole "dips and domes . . oh, its supposed to be that way" fairytale gets used. The distance from the router cutting edge must be constant in height and depth to supply a proper cut. Meandering past the bit over hills and dales will not work out.

Of the tables in this price range, Eagle America, MLCS, Peachtree, Rockler, etc., I ended up with Rockler. These are inexpensive tables so they will not be fabulous but they can be solid dependable workers. The Rockler has been abused for 3 years and seems as good as day one; fence 90 to the table, fence faces even depth, table flat (after some reinforcement underneath), and so on. If Peachtree can't make you happy, return it. I wouldn't want to spend hours and hours of my time trying to make a $200 table, fence and plate do what it should and I don't even do this for a living.

Oh . . . rant over. I hope they do right by you and that dips and domes story is bunk!

[glenn bradley]

(Link to Shop page (http://home.san.rr.com/jeffnann/WoodWorking/Shop/Shop.html) - scroll down to Router Table.)

Pasted from your page: Paraphrase - Clamping a stop block in each slot allows me to easily set a reference position for the fence.

What a cool idea. I can't belive I have used my slotted table for three years and never thought of that. Excellent tip!

[pat warner]

Your problems normal?
In my view: Within normal limits.
Unacceptable? Yes.

The place to discover this is at the point of purchase. A pity, but not strange at all.

[Daniel Hillmer]

As far as properly supporting the middle of the table or adding re enforcement is concerned, I don’t think that’s possible with the stand that came with the table, unless I either build myself a new stand or buy a heavier duty stand.

Because the stand that came with the table – the legs are made of 3/64” 90 degree angle metal (which I think is about 18 gauge) and the table top sits on and is supported on all four sides but not in the center. The only way I see I can add a couple of more supports is to go out and buy some more angle metal, start drilling holes in the table supports to bolt the new metal to, then add shims between table and new metal to bring the table level. In time I would not be surprised that this would cause the frame to start buckling because the metal does not seem to be thick enough to take on the added pressure of the shims. One would think that if the table needed support they would have added extra metal.

I guess I’m going to have to call them again tomorrow and see if they will help me with getting a new (flat) table. I hope I’m not going to take a bath on this, with shipping I now have over $400.00 into this table and have no functional table.

I’m really bummed too because I have 35 board feet of maple and am ready and eager to start building kitchen cabinets, planned on doing a lot of work over the holiday weekend, and now I’m going to have to tell the lady who has been waiting for a new kitchen for months – honey, there will be another week or two delay…

Oh boy that sure will go over good with her, maybe I’ll have to take her out to dinner to soften the blow.

Just curious - does Peachtree make their own router tables? If not, does anyone know who makes them?

[Jeff Bratt]

It's thick enough - but it's really up to the supporting framework to keep the table top flat over time. If you can't shim the table flat, it won't work very well... a .022" dip is unacceptable.

[Jeff Bratt]

Thanks Glen. I've found many similar tips from people willing to share their experiences with others. That's one of the really good parts of SMC (and related forums).

[Mike Goetzke]

Daniel -if you have no luck getting the table replaced you may want to try to re-inforce it on the bottom. I took a stock Biese TS side table and made a RT in my saw wing out of it. I reinforced it around the opening. I used wood - some use angle iron. My table was still not flat so I shimmed it from below, but, in my case I had smoething to react the load against. Good news is it hasn't moved in 1-1/2 years:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Unisaw%20Cabinet/IMG_0677_1_1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Unisaw%20Cabinet/IMG_0679_3_1.jpg



Mike

[Daniel Hillmer]

That's great thanks for the info Mike (and everyone BTW thanks for all your helpful comments).

In my case I don't think it would work though because there is nothing that the table can react against when I shim it out. Unless I start drilling through the top of the table and sink some screws or bolts into plywood re inforcement around the edges of the table. If I do that I'll end up not using the router stand the table came with and use plywood instead.

You think the plywood could bring a .022 warped table flat again?

[Ted Jay]

.... maybe I’ll have to take her out to dinner to soften the blow.


Don't tell her until the end of the evening. No sense ruining a perfectly good dinner.;)

Ted

[Daniel Hillmer]

Well, I called them again this morning, and they said go ahead and ship the table back too, and they will take a look at it and let me know what my options are. Just shipped it out this morning, am now out about 40 bucks to ship fence and table top back to them.

I did ask – is it necessary to add any additional support under this table to prevent it from sagging, and she said no absolutely not, the table is strong enough to hold the router without any sagging problems. So I hope it’s just that I got some bad MDF or something and am hoping for a new table that won’t sag – I don’t see how they could fix my table. They did say that the reason why some woodworkers add additional supports under their tables, is because they like perfection and want to make their table tops as flat as can be to mill to close tolerances.

Ah well, have to wait a week or longer to work on my cabinets.

[Mike Goetzke]

Well, I called them again this morning, and they said go ahead and ship the table back too, and they will take a look at it and let me know what my options are. Just shipped it out this morning, am now out about 40 bucks to ship fence and table top back to them.

I did ask – is it necessary to add any additional support under this table to prevent it from sagging, and she said no absolutely not, the table is strong enough to hold the router without any sagging problems. So I hope it’s just that I got some bad MDF or something and am hoping for a new table that won’t sag – I don’t see how they could fix my table. They did say that the reason why some woodworkers add additional supports under their tables, is because they like perfection and want to make their table tops as flat as can be to mill to close tolerances.

Ah well, have to wait a week or longer to work on my cabinets.

Wow - isn't this true for all of us?

[Randal Stevenson]

Wow - isn't this true for all of us?


Bandsaw boxes and hollow forms aren't flat!:p

Maybe that is the type of customer they are shooting for. LOL

[Daniel Hillmer]

I just weighed my PC 7518 and Woodpeckers router lift combo - 23.5 lbs.

Is this weight considered above average for a 24 x 32 router table made out of MDF? I found the table I've got at their site, it's this is the one - http://www.ptreeusa.com/routerTables.htm

[pat warner]

Tops deflect. How much? Depends not only on weight of the top, the load hanging from it, just where & what section all the sticks are that support said top but also on the work load and how hard you press down on it.
So, and in my view, the thing should be stressed for at least 100 pounds with very little deflection. If the thing bends to .007" or so at the centerline you may not be able to do precision joinery. Ordinary and decorative cuttings are more tolerant of deflection but it ain't nice no matter.


Would very much like to know the out come here.

[Daniel Hillmer]

OK will let you know. They have received the table and the fence, just waiting to hear from them about what they will do.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Well, I promised to post again when I got the table back to let you know what the result was in my router table saga, so here goes.

First of all, to Peachtree’s credit, everyone I spoke with on the phone was friendly, and they did provide me an exchange in a timely manner of the router fence angle bracket (not the fence itself) because they said it was bowed and out of their factory spec’s. Also – the parts shooting off the table problem seems to have gone away, possibly due to a combination of the massive amount of shimming I did on the new angle bracket using masking tape and the fact that I now have an angle bracket that is not bowed. The fence is now square to the table. I was also running the parts over the bit incorrectly after viewing Somerfield’s video a few times – running stock between the bit and fence instead of making the bearing of the tongue and groove bit flush with the fence using a straightedge and running the stock in front.

However, Peachpit did not make good on my biggest complaint – the problem with the router table. Also, although I got a new angle bracket, even though it is not bowed down the length of the bracket, it is more out of square than the one I sent them. I also had to pay for shipping both to and from Peachtree, about 40 bucks total – they would not cover it.

Here’s what happened. After they inspected the table, I spoke with David who claimed he was the owner of the company, he claimed that he himself observed a maximum dip of .008 inches and that .008 is within their manufacturing specs. I spoke with a different guy a day earlier who claimed he had been an engineer in the metals industry for many years, and he pretty much told me the same thing and staked his reputation on it

I measured a dip in the table of .022 inches using my Pinnacle precision T square and feeler gauges both before shipping and after receiving back the table. .008 may be within his specs, however, the table has a dip almost three times greater than Peachtree claims, and I just checked it this morning again, and my .022 feeler stock easily slided between the t square straightedge and the table top at center.

Also, despite getting a new extruded aluminum fence angle bracket, in the new bracket I can easily measure an out of square gap of .019” – a feeler gauge of this thickness easily slides between my Starrett precision combination square straightedge and the outside corner of the bracket. It was actually worse then the one I sent back to them. David did claim that for the brackets – and I believe this to be true, that they do not guarantee any squareness of the bracket because it is an extruded product (and I know this to be true because I also worked in the metals industry as a sales engineer selling machine tools to tool and die shops for 15 years to the automotive industry in Detroit area), and they provide instructions as to how to shim it out so that the fence is square to the bracket and the table. So I spent a whole afternoon adding layers and layers of masking tape to the bracket to shim it out, and I now have a fence that is square to the table. I don’t mind doing this as long as I can correct the problem.

Lastly, I also specifically asked them several times if a 23 pound router/router lift combo would be enough weight to bow that table down, and everyone there told me absolutely not.

He also said that even if the table was defective (which it is), that he could not take it back because it was modified for the woodpeck router lift (I slightly decreased the thickness of the step flange the router plate fits onto so that the woodpeck plate would be flush - when I bought the table at the show, the sales guy said this would not void the warranty). And I told him that point was moot because modified or not, it did not matter – if the table is that defective then it should not be resold anyway. HE agreed on that, and then later he said that on occasion they do sell defective merchandise at lower prices, but that a defective router table top would only go for maybe 40 bucks. So I can only assume that he did not want to give me an exchange on the table because he felt he could not sell it as defective and make 40 bucks. I assume he would not be able to get back 40 bucks to help cover the loss of returned defective merchandise. Sad, because I was planning on purchasing a raised panel router bit set from them and some other stuff. I won’t be now, so they will end up losing more than 40 bucks in sales from me. He also said that they never sell defective merchandise at the trade shows, only in GA. But with my experience with them I find that hard to believe.

So – kind of a better sweet ending. At least for now, after a massive amount of shimming and fiddling and learning, I am now able to get acceptable tongue and groove joints for my kitchen cabinets. The joints I am getting may have been better had I bought a different table –I have no way of knowing that now, but at least for now it seems that most of the problems are solved after the shimming and hopefully that .022 dip won’t be causing me problems in the future.

The thing I am really upset about though, is getting told that my table only has a .008 dip in the top, whereas I can easily observe a dip almost three times that amount. I don’t really appreciate being assumed an idiot, especially after giving them 500 bucks of my hard earned money. He claimed that he was an engineer and that he would stake his reputation on it, well, I studied engineering at U of M for several years, and I also know a few things about measuring instruments.

I guess the moral of the story is, if you plan on buying a router table and are picky, make sure to bring with you to a store or a woodworking show a precision straight edge, some feeler gauges and a precision combination square, and measure the table for flatness when a router is installed in table, and also measure the fence for squareness, and if you are not happy with the product, then don’t buy it. Also, if you buy mail order, make sure you measure your equipment asap and if there are any problems squeal about it immediately. I think the best thing to do, is to purchase your heavy equipment from a dealer that is close to your home, so that if there are any problems you can deal with them directly with a short drive instead of having to get assistance half way across the country from businesses who don’t care if a customer outside of their state is unhappy.

It’s buyer beware in the tool world.

[pat warner]

For your safety, appreciate:
That a table with .022 cup, bow, twist or whatever can be a safety problem. For those cutters that are trapped in the stock, (glue-joint, slotters, cope/stickers, beading bits, et al) there is risk of self-feed, kick back or a destruction of the profile.
What? Yes,especially if the stock is mishapen too. As you feed the stock, pressing down bends the stock into the table error as well as the stock itself. Now, when & if you relax your down feed force, the cutter imediately cuts into new stock (above and below), widens the cut and it may self feed. If it was mine I'd scrap it.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Hi Pat,

Thanks for the concern and comments really appreciate it from you and everyone else the past month. My one saving grace, is the fact that I have a woodpecker router lift. To overcome that defective dip in the table I'm jacking it up above the table surface just a hair and hopefully I'll be able to compensate for the dip. The folks at peachpit and a few other folks elsewhere suggested this. I only apply pressure on the piece when it's on the plate, and the plate is aluminum, so I think I’ll be pretty safe there as far as flexing goes. Had I been using the peachtree provided Rousseau made plastic plate, I’d be out of luck I think. On scrapping the table, unfortunately I paid over 300 bucks for that table and stand, so I guess I'm kind of stuck with it for a few years since Peachpit won't help me. I'll probably use it for a while and then just throw the thing out, make my own or buy a new one. Would not want anyone else to have it even if I gave it away.

Interestingly I listened to a phone message again that one of the folks over at peachtree left me last month; first he said that the router table was dipped .007” and about a half minute later in the same message he said it was dipped .009” (I measured .022), and that he would stake his reputation as an engineer on the measurements he made with Starrett and Brown and Sharp tools haha.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/progress.gif

[Joel Goodman]

If Pat Warner says it's not OK I'd follow his advise -- he's the router expert!

[glenn bradley]

Pat speaks true. My original table sagged slowly over time. I noticed when it launched a stile across the shop. New table flat. Me happy and SAFE.

[Harley Reasons]

I had them on my short list at one time to order a top from. Now FOR SURE they have been put on the NO NO list (No Lookie, No Buyie).
Another future dissatisfied customer adverted.
Thanks for your post.

[Daniel Hillmer]

If it was mine I'd scrap it.OK so let's say I decide to bite the bullet, scrap the table and buy a new one. Any suggestions for a high quality router table/stand combo that is flat and known to be dimensionally stable over time for around the same price I paid (around 360 bucks)?

[Daniel Hillmer]

Or would I be better off building my own if I'm concerned about the table being flat and stable over time?

[Mike Goetzke]

OK so let's say I decide to bite the bullet, scrap the table and buy a new one. Any suggestions for a high quality router table/stand combo that is flat and known to be dimensionally stable over time for around the same price I paid (around 360 bucks)?

I would suggest a phenolic top. Do a google search "phenolic router table" and you will get many hits. Jointech seems to have fair prices?

Mike

[Douglas Brummett]

Wow, this is quite an ordeal. It is no fun when the person on the other end of the line feeds you bs and treats you like you really don't know what is up. Sounds like you are about out of grace with Peachtree, so the next thing to do is fix it yourself or pass the buck. I would probably off it. I have a particular distaste for tools that have been patched to work the way they should have from the start. Doubly so if I paid good money for said item.

Without pictures of the stand I can't give much suggestion for fixing the problem. What I would envision would be adding a couple of cross members and then threading them so that they could push up in various locations (kind of like a screw press). This is relatively cheap and just might do the trick.