Making Radial Arm Saws Safer

[Harry Niemann]

I read so many comments regarding radial arm saws as being unsafe. I think the reason people have trouble, is due to using the wrong type of blade. The correct blade should have a negative or zero hook or rake angle. If you draw a line from the center of the mounting hole to the perimeter, the front of the tooth cutting face should be parallel to this line, or leaning slightly backward from it. A table saw blade cutting face will be leaning forward from this line. This is called a positive hook angle. Using this type of blade on a radial arm saw will cause the blade to pull toward you creating an unsafe condition. I have been using radial arm saws for over 45 years and have never had a problem.

[Joe Jensen]

Same advice I was given, and in 18 years I haven't had an issue. Having said that, I only crosscut at 90 degrees...joe

[Peter Quinn]

The instructor for my motorcycle safety class some years ago (insurance company required it) when asked what the most dangerous aspect of riding a bike was calmly stated, "The single most dangerous part on a motorcycle is the nut that connects the handle bars to the seat".

Same holds true for a RAS. Correct blade, accurate set up, careful focused use and proper placement of hands is a must. My saw is a 14" Dewalt GR with a 24" cross cut...it never ceases to capture the users undivided attention.

I wonder how many wood workers who would never rip on a table saw with the fence toed into the blade a bit would consider operating an RAS with the blade healed out in a dangerous manner? And running the wrong blade on any tool is just stupid.

[Jeff Duncan]

Agree with Peter on this one, if you have the right blade and technique the RAS is fine. Even with the wrong blade, if your hand isn't in the path of the blade you can't get hurt, kind of a no brainer right?
Anything with a blade spinning at several thousand RPM's is going to be dangerous, it's the person using it that makes the difference.
JeffD

[Randal Stevenson]

Agree with Peter on this one, if you have the right blade and technique the RAS is fine. Even with the wrong blade, if your hand isn't in the path of the blade you can't get hurt, kind of a no brainer right?

JeffD


I am gonna say wrong on that one. Even with a radial arm saw, cutting down towards the table, wrong blade, bad alignment, and you could get a piece kicked up , which means airborne wood and watch for ricochets.

Now there is no reason one couldn't use clamps, SME's, or some other hold downs with a RAS to help improve it. But NO TOOL is completely safe, when the operator themselves could the the problem!

[Tom Walz]

Excellent comment, Mr. Niemann.

I would add that there are several really good reasons that thin kerf saws are generally not recommended for use on radial arm saws.

One of the problems in the industry is that almost no one is running the right blade.

Maybe half the sawmills and about 90% of the cabinet shops in the country could be running better saw blades.

The hobbyist, who can only afford one blade, is pretty well served with a choice of several General Purpose blades. However, this could be seen as having a really good Crescent wrench instead of a set of combination wrenches.

[Thomas Pender]

Insuance companies nickname RAS thumb amptuators. They know, or their actuaries do, that people make mistakes and RAS are easy to make mistakes with. In addition, has anyone ever noticed that while Grizzly sells almost every power tool known to man, they do not sell a RAS? Makes me wonder why - could be the market is not there or could be they do not want the headache of selling them and having product liability suits(although I think the statistics are table saws are more dangerous). (I would enjoy Steve (Papa Grizz's comment on that.)

That being said, blade manufacturers sell blades specifically made for RAS. These blades are engineered to to make it less likely the blade will jerk the wood away from you or otherwise send it flying (a truly frightening experience). Also, while I once had a RAS I found it was not important enough to me to take up space in my shop. I have friends with similar experience and opinions, although I know many Creekers use RAS with success.

I gave up on them because I know I make mistakes and this kind of saw would reveal, eventually, what they were.:o

[Dennis Lopeman]

Interesting thing for those of you who want - I discovered it.

A friend gave me his old Craftsmen RAS. Its table was in dire shape. I started doing research on building a new table for it... and came across a RECALL.

This RECALL had been long standing and it was easy to go to the website (some 3rd party was handling the recall - not a very robust web page if I remember right) and input my model/serial number... and then told me what package I would get!!

I didn't believe the website - so I called. I talked to a very nice lady who assured me everything was correct. Just gave me address (no credit card or anything like that) -

In like a week I got the upgrade AND A NEW TABLE with it!! And it's pretty cool...

I'm going to do a quick google search and see if I can find the URL... I'll post it if I do.

HERE IT IS: http://rasrecall.com/ (http://rasrecall.com/)

[Paul Simmel]

Primarily used as a cross cut station, I’ve been using a RAS for over 30 years and have never experienced any of the described issues here. I have never had a “proper” blade either and don’t plan on it.

I’d like to know just how a piece can be “picked up” and “kicked” on a RAS?

[Dennis Lopeman]

how about if you don't have a fence? the one I inherited didn't at first and I just started cutting on it one day... the saw RAN through the wood and ripped it outa my hand!!! ouch... and then I started researching a proper tabletop!!!! lesson learned.

with the new setup, no problems yet

[Bob Slater]

ANyone have a part number for a general purpose RAS blade of good (not the best) quality?

[Scott Vigder]

This is my fifth year as a woodworking hobbyist. I am fortunate in that I was able to outfit a complete shop in a relatively short time.

After one year I traded in my trusty Craftsman RAS for a sliding compound miter saw (note- no brand mentioned :eek:) .

I find the scms to be much safer and easier to operate, which gives me a high degree of confidence when using the tool.

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

The Freud LU83R008 (8") and LU83R010 (10") are good, inexpensive all-around blades for the RAS.

In addition to an appropriate blade, and an operator knowledgable in safe RAS techniques, the safety of the RAS is dependent on proper alignment. Because they can be used in so many orientations, there are many more adjustments to be made than for a TS. I think a lot of RAS owners are unaware of what these adjustments are, and some saws aren't even designed with adjustments for every axis. A rigidly constructed saw, that can be aligned, and will hold its alignment, is a pleasure to use.

[Shawn Honeychurch]

The best way to ensure safety on a RAS (or any tool for that matter) is real the manual, and do a little research to learn how to use it properly. My grandfather who was a life long woodworker told me that if you learned to use the machine correctly, maintained it carefully and showed it the proper amount of respect you were more likely to get hit by a meteor than get injured by your tools. I don't know if he was right or not, but he did woodworking using all manner of tools for almost 60 years and never once got injured by his tools.

[Basil Rathbone]

The Dewalt RAS forum gurus have done a fair amount of research and recommend two blades. One, the Forrest WW1 TCP available only by phoning Forrest and asking for Charles. It is the expensive blade. The second one is the Freud LU83R008 (for 8" blades) and it is available at Amazon.com. Last time I bought one they were in the mid $30 range.

I have them both and like them both, but they are different blades.

[Jeff Duncan]

I am gonna say wrong on that one. Even with a radial arm saw, cutting down towards the table, wrong blade, bad alignment, and you could get a piece kicked up , which means airborne wood and watch for ricochets.

Now there is no reason one couldn't use clamps, SME's, or some other hold downs with a RAS to help improve it. But NO TOOL is completely safe, when the operator themselves could the the problem!

Randall, I don't know how you could get a piece of wood to kick up in the air, but I guess anythings possible???
In well over a decade of using a RAS I've never seen or come across that happening, and to be honest can't really get my head around how you could do that. And believe me my saws alignment hasn't been accurate since I first bought it back in the early 90's. I've jambed it, stalled it, and done all sorts of things on it I wouldn't recommend to anyone, but in all my use never got a piece kicked up. I am curious though....is this something you've witnessed or just something you think could happen???
JeffD

[Randal Stevenson]

Randall, I don't know how you could get a piece of wood to kick up in the air, but I guess anythings possible???
In well over a decade of using a RAS I've never seen or come across that happening, and to be honest can't really get my head around how you could do that. And believe me my saws alignment hasn't been accurate since I first bought it back in the early 90's. I've jambed it, stalled it, and done all sorts of things on it I wouldn't recommend to anyone, but in all my use never got a piece kicked up. I am curious though....is this something you've witnessed or just something you think could happen???
JeffD

A friend received a deceased relatives saw. He hadn't used one in a LONG time and tossed a CHEAP, table saw blade on it (20 degree hook angle). The fence was chewed up (should have been replaced) and NO checking of alignment or anything before use. He thought he could get by (sitting on stand, hadn't been screwed back to the legs), making a quick trim cut (circular saw elsewhere) and started it and the blade/motor carriage was unlocked and started into a bevel position while cutting.
Through the comedy of errors, the small cutoff piece was projected (not far) but enough, he didn't use the saw until he locked it down. It was a poor one that wouldn't hold its alignment, and after frustration (consuming space, not doing the job it was meant to do), he dumped it.

I wasn't there for it, but was told this when I found my old DeWalt saw (he was trying to get me to not by it). He was smart enough to admit fault, but that did scare him out of them.

[Jeff Bratt]

Either of these are good choices:
http://www.infinitytools.com/products.asp?dept=1197
http://www.infinitytools.com/products.asp?dept=1201

The significant factor is a low or negative tooth hook angle as mentioned in earlier posts.

[Jacob Reverb]

I found a way to make the radial arm saw absolutely safe:

I banished it from my shop.

I've always hated the RAS. I think I could hire a one-armed drunken orangutan to cut boards to length and he could get them more square blindfolded than I ever could with a RAS...and he wouldn't always be trying to punch me in the nose or cut my arm off! :p

Then again, YMMV. ;)

I'll never forget the time my Rocket Scientist brother tried to use a dado set to cut a groove lengthwise in a board with his RAS ... and ended up feeding the board from the wrong side of the saw!

[Terry Browne]

When ripping on the RAS the blade is rotating up into the work from the bottom of the work piece and the tendency is to lift the work piece. If the work isn't held down securely to the table it can easily be launched from the table with tremendous force. If your hand or hands are in the wrong place you can be severely injured. The shorter the work piece - the harder it is to hold the piece down. I had this happen to me a long while ago and it tore the blade guard off of the saw and broke the metal casting on the blade guard when it hit the wall. That event left the blade running totally exposed. I bought a table saw the following week and I've never ripped on the RAS since.

This is exactly the opposite action of a table saw where the blade is rotating down into the piece forcing it down onto the table surface. Kick backs can/will occur on the table saw but the event won't throw the table off of the saw and leave the blade completely exposed. It may be partially exposed but you won't see a 10 or 12 inch blade running 100 percent exposed as on the RAS.

I have seen other posts on this site where RAS users stated they broke the blade guard casting in the same manner. So this isn't something that only happened to me.

Newer, better blades may make the RAS safer but I don't think you're going to see them popular again.

[Peter Quinn]

I found a way to make the radial arm saw absolutely safe:

I banished it from my shop.

I've always hated the RAS. I think I could hire a one-armed drunken orangutan to cut boards to length and he could get them more square blindfolded than I ever could with a RAS...and he wouldn't always be trying to punch me in the nose or cut my arm off! :p



I'm guessing two things may be true here:

1) You have worked with different orangoutangs than I, as the few I've met were feisty when sober ("Right turn Clyde".)

2) We are using a different RAS. My neighbor's Northfield is adjustable to within fractions of a minute and holds its settings like a monkey holds a banana. My Dewalt GR is a bit less accurate, but not much. Once you go through the tedious 11 step alignment process 4 or 5 times (first three to under stand what you are doing) it holds its settings well, and the only further adjustment necessary is to adjust for wear over a lifetime.

I don't think there is a tool in my shop that isn't at least as dangerous or capable of removing extremities my RAS. And I am never even tempted to fall asleep when using that beast. It has never turned itself on, jerked forward and cut off a hand to my knowledge with out the help of an untrained user.

My Dad offered me his Craftsman RAS a while back before I got the Dewalt going, and I offered to help him carry that POS to the curb where it belongs, politely of course, cause he's my Dad. I love him very much, but not enough to put a tool like that into service in my shop.

[Bill Wyko]

I think the safest thing you can do with a radial arm saw is unplug it.:D If any of you are in Tucson, I have one I'll give you.

[Jeff Duncan]

Randall, sounds like the type of guy who should not be allowed to use anything that plugs into a wall, nevermind a machine with a blade on it!!! Anyway I guess where there's enough stupid mistakes compounded, anything truly can happen.
Terry, I almost forgot guys are silly enough to try and rip on the RAS. That is a situation where the RAS is truly dangerous. I'm reminded that there are those who use them to rip, and as routers, sanders, drills and the other dozen or more operations certain companies advertised them as being capable of. It is my opinion that the RAS is a good machine for making crosscuts in stock. It does some of the other operations fairly well, but not nearly as well as dedicated machines. As far as ripping that's something I would never encourage anyone to try. I know there are guys that swear by it, and have done it for years, but it really is not a logical choice for that operation. It's not practical, ergonomic, efficient, safe or easy, and really should be avoided by those who practice safe work habits.
but then again that's just my opinion for what it's worth,
JeffD

[Bruce Benjamin]

I found a way to make the radial arm saw absolutely safe:

I banished it from my shop.

I've always hated the RAS. I think I could hire a one-armed drunken orangutan to cut boards to length and he could get them more square blindfolded than I ever could with a RAS...and he wouldn't always be trying to punch me in the nose or cut my arm off! :p

Then again, YMMV. ;)

I'll never forget the time my Rocket Scientist brother tried to use a dado set to cut a groove lengthwise in a board with his RAS ... and ended up feeding the board from the wrong side of the saw!

My mileage does vary because I know how to adjust my RAS and I don't put my hand or arm in front of the blade. How may RAS's have you used or seen? Mine is one of the infamous Craftsman saws and it holds it's alignment and makes perfect crosscuts and crosscut dados. People who can't get square cuts or feel like they are in constant danger with their RAS probably haven't read and followed the directions in the manual that came with the saw.

Bruce

[Paul Simmel]

My mileage does vary because I know how to adjust my RAS and I don't put my hand or arm in front of the blade. How may RAS's have you used or seen? Mine is one of the infamous Craftsman saws and it holds it's alignment and makes perfect crosscuts and crosscut dados. People who can't get square cuts or feel like they are in constant danger with their RAS probably haven't read and followed the directions in the manual that came with the saw.

Bruce

This is exactly right. I've had my Craftsman RAS since the 70's. So if I ever get a Darwin-Award, it wont be for that. It's been in three shops, and in the last two it was a dedicated cross-cut machine and/or tenon machine when set up with a dado stack. It cuts perfectly square and the tenons have always been within a few thousands holding the pieces by hand.

I've always used regular cross-cut blades with it. The 10" Diablo 60 tooth is a great blade. If one reads the Manual, it states clearly to position yourself with a slightly straight-armed stance because the cut will want to walk toward you slightly. One can feel this and control/compensate very easily. It becomes second-nature.

Forty-fives are cut using a template clamped to the fence.

When this one pukes out it will need to be immediately replaced. It's that integral. l couldn't even imagine using my CMS for shop use.

The only time anything has gone flying... it's a very small cut-off that got caught and flung away from me. Maybe three times in 30 years.