Paper back veneer experiences

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Hi, I've used all wood veneers using a vacuum pump and veneer glue with good success. But I'm doing a 30" wide table top and don't want any seams. With most veneer widths I figure I'd have at least 3 seams.

So I was looking at paper backed veneers and they come in 4'x8' sheets. But is this stuff any good for a table top? What glue would you use? Should I just stick with all wood veneers? Thanks.

[john bateman]

They are typically very thin veneers with a heavy paper backing. You can also get them with a wood backer, or even phenolic. These two make it a bit more durable. Usually they are applied like a laminate, using contact cement.
I have a commercially manufactured table that appears to have this type veneer on it.

I wouldn't use it myself for making a dining table surface. At least not if you wanted it to last a long time.

[Mike Henderson]

Like John said, the veneer is VERY thin on paper backed veneer. That's not terrible, because with veneer you only need a very thin layer of the wood to show the effect.

The problems come in when you build it. If you edge the table, you have to be extremely careful when taking the edging down to the level of the veneer. One slip, or a bit too much sanding and you'll show the paper backing and have to start over again.

Also, the paper backed veneer has "seams" meaning that the veneer is pieced together before applying to the paper backing. It's done very well so there's no gaps but it's still a seam.

Having said all that, I have made a dining table with paper backed veneer and it came out okay. If you decide to go that way, I'd recommend gluing it with regular veneer glue (titebond, urea, etc) and not contact cement. Just put it in your vacuum press just like you'd do non-backed veneer.

Personally, I'd prefer to lay non-backed veneer. You didn't say why you don't want any seams - it could be because you don't like the look of them (but you'll probably have them with on paper backed veneer), or if you're afraid of seam gaps, or if you're afraid the veneer will lift at the seams.

If you're afraid of gaps, the primary reason is difficulty in cutting long straight cuts. The way to avoid that is to overlap the two sheets and cut through both at the same time. Even if you wander, the edges will match (some people wander for effect). After that, it's all in good taping and gluing.

If you're afraid of the veneer coming loose years later, use a good urea glue and MAKE SURE you don't have any veneer tape on the glue face, especially on the seam. Then put a good finish on it. The urea glues are so good it's unlikely you'll have any delamination.

Mike

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Thanks guys. Mike, the reason I'm trying to avoid seams is because I usually don't like the grain mismatch. Maybe I'm not matching it well enough and I could improve on that. But I can get a good tight seam with a jig I made. I just put the two veneers in the jig and go over the edges with a router. This removes about 1/32" and leaves a beautiful edge on the veneers. I've had better luck with this that with a knife.

[Mike Henderson]

Alan, I don't know what pattern you planned to lay on the table top - based on your consideration of paper back veneer, I sort of assumed that you were planning to lay it in a linear patten (straight from one side to the other). Have you considered laying it in a four way match? That is, laying it in the four quadrants of the table and matching at the seams, with the grain pointing in towards the center.

That would give an interesting look.

Or if you want to lay it straight, how about a bookmatch at the seams? It won't look like a one big continuous piece of veneer but it's one way to deal with smaller veneer on a bigger table.

If I recall, you're pretty experienced in working with veneer so these ideas may duplicate things you've already thought of.

Good idea on the router. I've seen that done by others.

Mike

[Brad Shipton]

What type of Veneer? I just finished with some Sapele and the raw sheets were 18" wide and I had some cherry sheets that were 16" wide (both 10' long). The veneer came from Certainly wood. I am no veneer expert, but at 30" wide, I would stick with the solid veneer, book match or the four way is really nice as suggested by Mike. Use a mirror to preview the fourway match. I totally agree with you that the router works better than a knife. For cross cutting I built a jig that clamps the veneer on both sides of the cut so I do not have any chipping. It has a guide on one side and my cordless saw works great with a good blade.

Brad

[David DeCristoforo]

II have to go with the trend here. Paper backed veneers are a poor choice for a table top. The veneer itself is just too thin, more of a "suggestion" of wood. Even if you avoid all of the pitfalls (sanding through the tissue thin veneer, etc.) over the long run, it will not be very durable and completely "un-repairable" if the day should ever come....

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Thanks again guys. I'm looking for an "exotic" veneer, just something that looks different, really nice, and eye poping. Sapelle would probably be one I'd consider. Any suggestions of veneer and solid wood edging much appreciated. I usually use a one inch solid wood edging with a routed profile to it.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

This is a bubinga veneer/solid maple edging with profile table. I did this awhile back but I think my veneer sheets were too short so I used the maple cross pieces to break up the length so I could attach them together. I'd love to see any pics you have of your work.

[Frank Drew]

Alan,

In addition to the problems others have mentioned with paper backed veneer, I'd think you'd have a vastly wider choice of high quality material with regular veneer.

[Brent Smith]

Hi Alan,

The only times I've used paperbacked was in F&P constuction where the edge is hidden. I wouldn't use it on anything that will be a wear surface, like a tabletop, nor on anything where the edge would be exposed. It's just too thin to get a proper edge next to a border.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

I'm definitely looking at wood veneers without paper backing. My problem is the table is going to be 30" x 44" . How would you lay up veneers on that since most seem to be 8" wide or so. So I"m going to need to have at least 3 seams. Is there any way to "cover" these seams?

[Thomas Pender]

Alan,

How about a really big sheet?

I have bought non-paper backed veneers as large as 48" x 96" from Northland Forest Products in Manassas, Va (they have other locations) and they are right thick. (I can measure their thickness on a micrometer if you send me a message to and get back to you later this evening.) I use the spray adhesive (both surfaces) and they look really fine. They seem to be able to get some real good stuff - various levels of quality for various kinds of wood, e.g., I just bought a beautiful quarter sawn white oak sheet that is as pretty as anything I have ever seen. I figure you know they come in rolls and the boxes are, as you may expect, not heavy - just 49" high by 8" square.

Alternatively, Warren Bickley (the Manassas Manager) can get me 48x96 plywood for almost any wood you can name, but he has convinced me to use veneer as being much less expensive when applied to baltic birch smooth plywood (in particular).

BTW - I buy almost all my wood from them and they treat me with great respect and courtesy and boy do they have lots of stuff.

Hope this is of assistance.

Tom Pender

[David DeCristoforo]

" Is there any way to "cover" these seams?

I think the "best" way to look at this is to see the "seams" not as a "problem" but as an opportunity to feature the figure in the material. Bookmatched veneers can be quite striking. For example, you could use four pieces of veneer with three bookmatched seams. Or you could create a diamond pattern or... well the possibilities are endless. And remember, you are not likely to find paper backed sheets that do not have seams. So you are going to have the same "issue" either way. Another possibility is to find some "rotary cut" veneer. Many woods are rotary cut simply to yield wider pieces. But some figured woods are rotary cut because it's the best way to get the best figure. And these pieces tend to be much wider that flat, quartered or rift cut pieces. So you might find some nicely figured pieces that are wide enough to do your top in tow pieces with only one seam.

[Brad Shipton]

Here is a pic of my last project. Couple of drawer fronts for a bathroom vanity. Sapele infill panels and cherry trim boards. There are some other wood species in the cabinet so I was trying to blend the overall look a bit with stain.



http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/DSC01524-sm.jpg

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/DSC01528-sm.jpg



Brad

[Jerome Hanby]

What a great idea, and a beautiful piece!


This is a bubinga veneer/solid maple edging with profile table. I did this awhile back but I think my veneer sheets were too short so I used the maple cross pieces to break up the length so I could attach them together. I'd love to see any pics you have of your work.

[J.R. Rutter]

I bought some tiger maple paper backed sheets from Oakwood Veneer. I just mic'd a sample at .026" total thickness. The wood itself is about .019". They were a pleasure to deal with and the product was good quality. I used Unibond and a vacuum press.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Alan,

How about a really big sheet?

I have bought non-paper backed veneers as large as 48" x 96" from Northland Forest Products in Manassas, Va (they have other locations) and they are right thick. (I can measure their thickness on a micrometer if you send me a message to and get back to you later this evening.) I use the spray adhesive (both surfaces) and they look really fine. They seem to be able to get some real good stuff - various levels of quality for various kinds of wood, e.g., I just bought a beautiful quarter sawn white oak sheet that is as pretty as anything I have ever seen. I figure you know they come in rolls and the boxes are, as you may expect, not heavy - just 49" high by 8" square.

Alternatively, Warren Bickley (the Manassas Manager) can get me 48x96 plywood for almost any wood you can name, but he has convinced me to use veneer as being much less expensive when applied to baltic birch smooth plywood (in particular).

BTW - I buy almost all my wood from them and they treat me with great respect and courtesy and boy do they have lots of stuff.

Hope this is of assistance.

Tom Pender


Hi Thomas, I used to buy from Northland all the time when I lived in Maryland. It was a 45 min. drive but worth it. I've bought a lof of walnut shorts from them and a lot of other stuff. Yes, they are great to work with. Thanks for the info. Alan