crown molding nailer questions

[Mark Vernon]

I'm hoping someone might be willing to re-address this part of applying crown molding again. I have three large rooms and a long and short hallway to do.
First some background. I have trimmed out a house before...doors, windows, base and sills, but never crown. I recently took the 3 hr. class on crown at my nearby Woodcraft store. I have a Rigid 12" compound miter and their miter utility vehicle. And I have a fair amount of patience;).
I'm still a little confused about how to cut and apply a nailer to assist attachement along the ceiling where the joists run parallel. Specifically, do the pieces need to fill the space behind the crown, and how do I attach the top of the nailer? My wife has not picked the actual molding yet, but it will be close to 6" pre-primed. The house is 3 years old and the ceilings 9 feet. It seems to me that the thickness at the point af attachment is going to make it neccessary to drill partially through the nailer and screw it into the stud near the top (or the plate?) Please tell me I'm making this too hard and there is an easier way!
BTW, I have one of the true angle tools on the way, as well as the Benchdog miter cutting jig, thanks to the many positive comments about these tools by other members here at SMC. I called Rigid and learned that they did not make crown stops for this (new) model miter saw. Go figure.
Thanks for any help you might have to give! :confused:

Mark

[Paul Girouard]

You have the right idea , 2x blocks with a little liquid nails and either a screw or finish nails driven thru it. About 16 " apart closer as you get near corners and or if the walls a bowed. I cut the blocks about a 1/8" narrower than the crown so when you nail the crown to the block the edges of the crown are the only think touching the wall and ceiling. So THE BLOCKS WANT TO BE NOT perfect .

You can also snap a line on the wall to show where the bottom edge of the crown should lay , or use a laser . Get white chalk , well if your walls are white , white caulk does not stain the wall so it will wash off , or can be painted over.

You didn't say will the crown be paint grade or stain grade ? Not that that makes much difference to the "how it's applied" part. That becomes more a issue with how it's caulked and final finished .

Good luck.

[Richard Venturelli]

What type of crown? MDF, Poplar, Natural Finish? Crown does not weigh that much so you don't have to go crazy supporting the ceiling part of it. I will usually cut strips of 3/4" ply depending on size of crown. There is usually a nailer installed in the corner to support ceiling drywall. It's normally a 2x6 nailed to the top plate. Nail strips of plywood to that nailer and it your want use liquid nails in the front of strips and drive some nails at a steep angle into the drywall to hold it while it sets. I don't usually run the whole length of the wall with this setup, Remember to do this if you have a scarf cut in the middle of run, span the 16" centers of studs with plywood strips too. The plywood will be plenty to hold crown.

[Richard Venturelli]

One other note, use blue tape on ceiling at locations where you installed the plywood for obvious reasons.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Assuming you are installing crown that will be painted, you can get by without using blocking behind the crown. I have installed many rooms of crown using just a nailer with 2-1/2" nails. Locate the wall studs and put a nail at the bottom of the crown at each stud. Then put nails in the middle of the crown, angled upward so the nail will catch the top of the wall framing. Complete the job by caulking both edges of the crown and filling the nail holes with caulk. Blocking behind the crown would certainly be even better, but the method I described is perfectly satisfactory.

[Mark Vernon]

Yes, painted crown. So if I go with a nailer, are you guys talking about unaltered pieces of square 2x2 up against the ceiling, or if pieces of 3\4" ply, the same...like 1 1\2 to 2" strips every few feet? I won't need to cut angles on these?
Thanks
Mark

[Paul Girouard]

Yes, painted crown. So if I go with a nailer, are you guys talking about unaltered pieces of square 2x2 up against the ceiling, or if pieces of 3\4" ply, the same...like 1 1\2 to 2" strips every few feet? I won't need to cut angles on these?
Thanks
Mark


I cut block on the crown angle , like I said , 1/8" smaller than the back / angled / space behind the crown giving what is essentially full nailing support/ ability to put the nails right where you need them , not a "compromise" spot . IMO / experience crown needs to be nailed exactly where the nail will do the most good to pull it into place , sure you can "float" it thru some spots , BUT without nailer blocks your basically "floating" it ever where , that's where compromise become the MAJOR player in the install. Sure if it's a small crown 2 1/4" or less you do NOT need blocks , 3" , 3 1/2" your pushing it , if you look at the walls , know exactly how or who framed the place you can MAYBE get by without blocks any crown larger than that ,IMO , to get a good job you NEED nailer blocks . Again YMMV , OMMV (Other Mileage May Vary)

I've installed a lot of crown , I've seen crown installed a LOT of different ways , stain grade , paint grade . I've seen a lot of crown BUTCHERED / installed , I like my way.

When / IF I / get to go back MY crown still looks good, others OMMV. Joints should be back mitered 30 deg. reverse mitered , and SUPPORTED at the joint.

You can do it anyway you like , no blocks :confused: , plywood blocks, ??? 2x2"s:confused: what ever :rolleyes:, if you sell the house in a few years no one may ever notice. They may even not want crown molding , ya never know.

Do it once , do it right, I sleep good at night , again other's mileage May vary.

That's all I've got to say about that. Good luck.

[Richard Venturelli]

Yes, painted crown. So if I go with a nailer, are you guys talking about unaltered pieces of square 2x2 up against the ceiling, or if pieces of 3\4" ply, the same...like 1 1\2 to 2" strips every few feet? I won't need to cut angles on these?
Thanks
Mark

Why cut angles on them? All you need is good support, unless that angle is right up against the crown youre not going to get the extra support anyway. I have done it the way I explained for years and have gone back to do other work for the same Client and it still looks great today. If it works don't try to fix it. Can't see overkilling the hell out of something. I sleep fine at nights and have never been called back on a job, except once and it had nothing to do with crown.

[Paul Girouard]

Why cut angles on them? All you need is good support, unless that angle is right up against the crown youre not going to get the extra support anyway. I have done it the way I explained for years and have gone back to do other work for the same Client and it still looks great today. If it works don't try to fix it. Can't see overkilling the hell out of something. I sleep fine at nights and have never been called back on a job, except once and it had nothing to do with crown.


Hence my reference to Your Mileage May Vary / In My Opinion/ My experience has lead me to ( insert opinion) .

I've explained my reasoning , you can have yours , it's OK ! That's the way life and woodworking / woodworkers are.

I have see more badly installed crown THAN well / good / great installed crown. Reasons for that vary I guess! How it's exactly installed has a lot to do with it , IMO.

Here's a side note to this , how many folks here "look at others work" say when dinning out , or maybe visiting another persons house? And point out to wife's / significant others / folks your dinning with , the "things" good or bad , that we see?

One thing I sort of dread is being asked by a DIY'er or "new " home owner, "What do yo think?" Generally I lie thru my teeth and say "It looks good!" , or some such:rolleyes:

[Ben Grunow]

I am generally with Paul on this one but I think the key is in the fasteners and depth of penetration.

I use 2 1/2" nails for crown work and look for at least an inch of penetration into the framing or blocking wherever it may be. Space nails about 12-16" apart and use supported 45* scarf joints and coped corners where possible.

A little PL on the blocking pieces doesnt hurt either.

[Mark Vernon]

I appreciate the information and respect the differing experienced based opinions. I feel ready to give it a go.
Thank you all.
Mark

[fRED mCnEILL]

My whole house has crown, mostly painted MDF but also some stained maple.

I don't use any backing whatsoever. I simply use a 11/4 in air nailer and put 2 nails in at various locations along the crown.By shooting the nails at an approximate 90 degree angle to each other they prevent the nails from pulling out of the drywall.

On the painted MDF we then calk the joint between the ceiling and crown and wall and crown, If you have ever tried to remove molding that has been calked you know how this stuff grips.

On the natural wood molding I just shoot the nails.

The oldest crown has been up over 5 years and still looks as good as when it was put up.


This story reminds me a little of when I was tiling my shower. I wanted to put tile (12X12) on the ceiling and was wondering how to support it until the glue(?) dried. Various web sites and discussions groups suggested a variety of supports they had made. In the end I did a test in my shop and discouvered you don't need any support at all. In fact when I did the shower the tiles on the ceiling stayed put better than those on the walls(they wanted to slide down the wall).

Fred Mc.

[Richard Venturelli]

Hence my reference to Your Mileage May Vary / In My Opinion/ My experience has lead me to ( insert opinion) .

I've explained my reasoning , you can have yours , it's OK ! That's the way life and woodworking / woodworkers are.

I agree

I have see more badly installed crown THAN well / good / great installed crown. Reasons for that vary I guess! How it's exactly installed has a lot to do with it , IMO.

I know exactly of what you speak of.

Here's a side note to this , how many folks here "look at others work" say when dinning out , or maybe visiting another persons house? And point out to wife's / significant others / folks your dinning with , the "things" good or bad , that we see?

I do it all the time. Just the other day I ask a business owner I know if he was happy with the crown that was installed in his office, he said he was not. It was UGLY.

One thing I sort of dread is being asked by a DIY'er or "new " home owner, "What do yo think?" Generally I lie thru my teeth and say "It looks good!" , or some such:rolleyes:

LOL You better never tell him how you really feel! Boot in the butt never feels good.



Anyway I think the OP got the idea,

[C Scott McDonald]

Not to derail the topic but do you guys cope the inside corners?

[Pete Janke]

I also have the Ridgid 12" compound miter saw mounted on the MSUV. I used this Rockler crown molding jig along with the Starrett Miter Saw Protractor with good success. Easy to use. If you're not in a hurry, wait until they go on sale. Unfortunately, I usually don't have the patience to wait.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10565

http://www.amazon.com/Starrett-505A-12-ProSite-12-Inch-Protractor/dp/B0000DCBLW

[Paul Girouard]

Not to derail the topic but do you guys cope the inside corners?



I do , paint grade or stain grade , I always cope , crown , base , Base shoe , cove etc, etc.

See , I almost thought that was a "no brainer" , so I didn't mention it.

Writting up "advice" is harder then it would at first seem , maybe my writing skills suck , but little things a guy " just does" all need to be fleshed out , or so it seems.

[Paul Girouard]

I appreciate the information and respect the differing experienced based opinions. I feel ready to give it a go.
Thank you all.
Mark



Your welcome and thanks for taking the time to post your thanks and appreciation , classy way to go Mark. :) Good on ya.

[Richard Venturelli]

Not to derail the topic but do you guys cope the inside corners?

Of course.

[Richard Venturelli]

I do , paint grade or stain grade , I always cope , crown , base , Base shoe , cove etc, etc.

See , I almost thought that was a "no brainer" , so I didn't mention it.

Writting up "advice" is harder then it would at first seem , maybe my writing skills suck , but little things a guy " just does" all need to be fleshed out , or so it seems.

Paul I was wondering do you cut your crown flat on the miter table, cut the bevel and miter, or do you set it up against the fence? And what type of saw are you using? Just curious?

I usually cut mine flat, because of the lengths envolved and I use a 12" Hitachi and a Dewalt.

[Paul Girouard]

Paul I was wondering do you cut your crown flat on the miter table, cut the bevel and miter, or do you set it up against the fence? And what type of saw are you using? Just curious?

I usually cut mine flat, because of the lengths envolved and I use a 12" Hitachi and a Dewalt.



Almost always up against the fence , the old upside down a backwards thing . 10" Hatachi SCMS although years ago , about 18 , before the Hatachi I used a 15", or so , Makita straight miter saw on one job. Biggest saw I could find / barrow at the time.

I'm sure glad I didn't have to use the old Miller / Falls 36" back saw miter box I started all this with back in the 70's :eek:

I LOVE power tools , and I stay well clear of the Knee-Neader:D section of the forum , although some hand tools are nice , planes , chisels, etc I draw the line at power miter boxes over the "old style" :D

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,

BTW, I have one of the true angle tools on the way, as well as the Benchdog miter cutting jig, thanks to the many positive comments about these tools by other members here at SMC.
Make sure you have clearance on the right side of the saw for the BD miter jig. It hits the motor of my 10" Ryobi. I ended up having to "freehand" 2 cuts. I'd have made a simple jig for the right side if I'd had more than two cuts.

Re: the nailer
Adhesive & 18ga brads or 15/16ga finishing nails. No need to make miter cuts on the ends unless you want to. I do just the see how far out of 90* the corners are.
The idea behind the nailer is that it gives you something for the fasteners to hold into where the walls have a bow or belly w/no stud behind.

If you have a textured or stippled ceiling. Place a piece of the crown up and mark the edge on the ceiling. Measure from the wall out to the line you marked. Rip a 1' section of 3/4" stock to that just slightly wider (~1/32"). Get a pack of sanding screens - the screen stuff used for sanding drywall joints. Staple two of them to the sanding block you made and run that along the ceiling to knock down the texture. When you hang the crown, it will sit nice and flat, and look like it was in place when the texture/stipple was applied.

The other thing I do - since I hang crown by myself w/out a helper - is to tack up some ledges along the wall for the crown to sit on.
I made up some out of 6" scrap pieces. Nothing fancy. I place one every 3 or 4 feet on the wall using an 18ga brad or 2 or 3 to hold it up. As long as you avoid hitting a stud, they come down easy and leave little holes that are easily patched and touched up - providing you have some of the paint used on the wall.

Finally. If you have a small 2nd bath or laundry room or any other small room.
Practice on it using some narrow crown.
If you're anything like me, your 2nd job is going to look a whole lot better than your first one ;).
I made the "mistake" of taking on the living room as my first try.
I made some mistakes <-- understatement of the month.
(no sanding of the ceiling, no Bench Dog jig, no nailer, cut the crown on the floor - no miter saw stand)
My 3nd job, the lving room and hallway of a rental, turned out worlds better.

Finally - finally - I used a thin kerf 80 tooth Freud blade on the 2nd job.
My first few cuts were glass smooth. The quality deteriorated quickly.
I switched over to a standard width 40 tooth DeWalt blade, and my cuts are all a whole lot smoother and straighter.
YMMV on this. A lot of people swear by and wouldn't use anything except a thin kerf blade for this.
My experience (limited as it is - 6 or 7 crown hangings) has been that the full kerf blade works better for me.

{edit to add}
Oops - one final thing.
If you don't have a miter saw station, buy or build one.

[Mark Vernon]

Hi Rich,

Also good suggestions. I have the Rigid utility vehicle to use with the miter saw. Great idea to tackle a smaller room first...my wife especially liked that one. I'll do the laundry room and maybe the den to. Both quite a bit smaller than the kitchen, familyroom, hallway she actually wants me to do. I will report back, successes as well as frustrations, so other "newbies" might benefit. Thanks for your contributions.

Mark