Ash, White Oak, or Western Cedar?

[Sam Smith]

I'm trying to build an outdoor patio set - benches, chairs, long table (seats 6-10). I'm looking at Groff an Groff to purchase the wood. I am considering White oak, but I read white oak splits after time. How is Ash? Basically, I can't decide on the quality of wood for long lasting outdoor wood species for a patio set. Teak too $$, and I found western cedar to be the same high $$ price range.

[Chris Padilla]

Cypress is reknowned for outdoor wood. Teak is a good one. Ipe is durable but very hard. Cedar is great but is soft and easiy dinged up...I am buildng a gate and geez louise you have to be careful swinging the stock around as it's built!

[Homer Faucett]

White oak will probably be the most rot resistant out of the three you mentioned. Osage orange (aka hedge, bodark, etc.) or locust would be what I would call our native equivalent to teak here in the Midwest. I would venture to bet that it will actually outlast teak, but I can't compare because I have never seen a teak fence post to compare it to. Around here, rough cut cedar is pretty inexpensive, but as Chris said, is not what I would classify as a hardwood.

If you're in the South, I understand that Cypress is the wood of choice . . . but I'm not in the South, so I don't find it common around here.

[Lee Schierer]

I would vote for Western Cedar for the furniture for these reasons:

1. White oak though long lasting out doors will weigh a ton. IPE will weigh more than oak.

2. Ash is not normally associated with outdoor furniture and is not as rot resistant as say cherry or walnut when used outdoors.

3. The swing pictured below has survived 10 years of outdoors exposure (summers only) in northwestern Pennsylvania. It gets treated every couple of years with Thompson water seal.
http://home.earthlink.net/~us71na/swing.jpg

By the way, the frame is the same age and is treated lumber, only it stays outdoors year round.

[Dell Littlefield]

According to my boatbuilding friends, ash is ok only if you seal it with epoxy before varnishing to prevent black mold from discoloring it. I put ash gunnels on one of my canoes, epoxy sealed it and 4 coats of spar varnish. It has held up ok but I revarnish it about every year and store it indoors. Based on the comments by several experienced boat builders, I would say you are better with one of the other woods.

[Von Bickley]

Sam,
Cypress would be my choice, but I'm from the South and that was not one of your choices.

White oak would be nice but it will be a little heavy......


Welcome to "The Creek"...

[Jay Jolliffe]

How about Port Orford Cedar. I've used it to make picket fences & gates. Nice to work with.

[Peter Quinn]

How about Port Orford Cedar. I've used it to make picket fences & gates. Nice to work with.

I made an out door shower out of Port Orford cedar and its held up pretty well. That is one of the nicest smelling woods I have ever cut. Seems a bit stronger than Western Red Cedar but I'm not sure. Has a cool 'glow' when its new that turns a dull silver in my area with age. Not at all cheap here on the east coast.

I'd avoid ash, not too rot resistant unless you bury it in an epoxy shell.

Design wise cedar or redwood furniture always has that chunky country picnic table look because its not very strong so you need to use thicker stock to make any significant span. I like hard woods if your going for a more elegant "English garden" look, otherwise cedar is fine.

White oak or Mahogany would be my primary choices. I can buy well made teak furniture cheaper than I can buy teak stock, and exotics like teak, IPE or cumaru require carbide planner/jointer knives that get spendy. Locust is no joy to mill either (my mud sills on the house are made of Black Locust).

White oak does tend to check a bit at the ends but sealing with a good penetrating sealer should minimize this. Not much besides teak or ipe weathers well for decades without some protection IME.

[Mike SoRelle]

I'm getting ready to do some patio furniture now that we're in a new house and the old stuff didn't move with us, and I'm going with white oak just because I want the extra weight to keep it sturdy and in place up on the deck, due to the placement of the deck we get some killer winds and I don't want to worry about it moving around.

I initially was going to use cedar, but it's hard to find in this neck of the woods for some reason, and it's ALOT lighter, so I was worried about the overall stability especially for a table holding an umbrella.

Mike

[John Keeton]

Anything I have ever done with Western Red Cedar has held up well, but requires yearly maintenance. And it is soft and not structurally very strong.

This may be sacrilege, but has anyone built any outdoor furniture from the trex or similar product? I'm considering some adirondacks. It is heavy enough to stay put, easy to machine, and on the pattern at Woodcraft (hardboard templates), the widest stock required is 5.5" which would work out well with the 5/4 deck material. I know the structure of a table, and perhaps the benches would need to be pressure treated or some other stock, but it should work fine for chairs, etc.

Please don't excommunicate me, or withdraw my SMC privileges if this thought is too offensive!?!

[scott spencer]

Dunno from personal experience which is best, but do know that white oak used to be used for wine vats and barrels.

[Peter Quinn]

Anything I have ever done with Western Red Cedar has held up well, but requires yearly maintenance. And it is soft and not structurally very strong.

This may be sacrilege, but has anyone built any outdoor furniture from the trex or similar product? I'm considering some adirondack. It is heavy enough to stay put, easy to machine, and on the pattern at Woodcraft (hardboard templates), the widest stock required is 5.5" which would work out well with the 5/4 deck material. I know the structure of a table, and perhaps the benches would need to be pressure treated or some other stock, but it should work fine for chairs, etc.

Please don't excommunicate me, or withdraw my SMC privileges if this thought is too offensive!?!


I haven't built furniture from trex but I did use Kleer polyurethane boards extensively on my porch remodel. It mills like pine but lasts like plastic. Its dead stable on short lengths and holds paint well. I hate working it because it smells like skunk and its positive charge causes it to stick to everything including the inside of the DC system, and the farm where I drop my shavings doesn't want any plastic in the mix! I used mahogany and VGDF for the railing and bead board but Kleer every where else. Basically real wood for contact surfaces and plastic every where else.

Kleer isn't structural like Trex but I appreciate the longevity factor. I also appreciate the unique feeling of hardwood warmed gently by the sun on the arms of an adirondack chair. I'd be curious if a trex chair would have that unique tactile quality of real wood, and if not would you be willing to trade that feeling for longevity and ease of maintenance?

[John Keeton]

Peter, you paint a picture with words!! Made me want to pour a glass of sweet tea, throw in a sprig of mint, and do nothing but watch sunsets the rest of the summer! I vote for white oak!! (But, secretly, I may just try the plastic stuff anyway - just to test myself.)

[J. Z. Guest]

I'd go with the cedar and finish it with spar urethane.

Cypress may be a bit harder, but you didn't mention it originally.

The spar urethane on the cedar will make it about 95% weatherproof, and it will also make the surface much less prone to dings than if it were naked.

The price is high because of the rot resistance, and if it is the same type of cedar that is used to line chests, because of the odor.

Ash is bad for outdoors. It isn't very rot resistant, and the bugs just LOVE it.

[Gary Herrmann]

The qs white oak umbrella table I built a few years ago has held up very well in the weather.

[Dave Tinley]

I would vote for white oak also. It holds up real well in an outside enviroment.
But I like the look of Cypress. If you can get some of it you cant go wrong.

Now if you want something that is almost industructable, try post oak.
Its very heavy, and very dense. And as I understand it the cival war ship Monitor was made out of it and it resisted cannonballs and still floated.

Dave

[Brandon Shew]

Not much besides teak or ipe weathers well for decades without some protection IME.

That pretty much summs it up. Mother nature puts a beating on everything. UV from the sun combined with moisture and temperature swings will eventually destroy just about anything. As much as I hate to say it, a Teak or Ipe outdoor set can last a lifetime with minimal care. Anything else and you'll be re-doing it in 5-10 years.

I would have suggested Cedar as well as I have 60 year old cedar shake on my house that has weathered extremely well, but it's too soft for furniture.

Expensive hurts once, cheap hurts every time you use it.

[Dewey Torres]

I am considering White oak, but I read white oak splits after time.
If you finish the piece correctly, it will be a LONG LONG time before you see splits. By that time you may find that you have gotten enough use from it and are are ready to improve upon your design anyway. My .02
Dewey

[Cary Swoveland]

Alaska yellow cedar is another possibility. Stronger and less splintery than red cedar.

Cary

[julie Graf]

Locust is no joy to mill either

i have not (yet) milled locust - what's the downsides? i was thinking of building a a gardening table out of it for the backyard - it's a local wood and know a mill i where i can get it.

[Dave Lindstrom]

It's not ungodly expensive, or heavy, and works really well, with hand or power tools. Try it--you'll like it.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

As much as I use Cedar I'd have to say for a table I'd use White Oak. It will hold up very well over time.

[Lee Schierer]

Anything I have ever done with Western Red Cedar has held up well, but requires yearly maintenance. And it is soft and not structurally very strong.

This may be sacrilege, but has anyone built any outdoor furniture from the trex or similar product? I'm considering some adirondacks. It is heavy enough to stay put, easy to machine, and on the pattern at Woodcraft (hardboard templates), the widest stock required is 5.5" which would work out well with the 5/4 deck material. I know the structure of a table, and perhaps the benches would need to be pressure treated or some other stock, but it should work fine for chairs, etc.

Please don't excommunicate me, or withdraw my SMC privileges if this thought is too offensive!?!

There are several stores in this area offering tables, benches and chairs made from synthetic lumber type materials. They seem to have sources for 2 x materials which don't show up in any of the lumber yards.

[Chris Padilla]

I made an out door shower out of Port Orford cedar and its held up pretty well. That is one of the nicest smelling woods I have ever cut. Seems a bit stronger than Western Red Cedar but I'm not sure. Has a cool 'glow' when its new that turns a dull silver in my area with age. Not at all cheap here on the east coast.

POC smells wonderful as you mill it and is definately stronger, sweeter smelling than its cousin, WRC. I've been knee-deep in WRC for a month now working on my gate. Love the smell, hate how easily dinged up the cedar gets as I move things around....

[Joseph N. Myers]

i have not (yet) milled locust - what's the downsides? i was thinking of building a a gardening table out of it for the backyard - it's a local wood and know a mill i where i can get it.

Julie,

I've build a lot of outdoor stuff out of white oak and it really works well! That said, I've also used locust and actually like it better. It is a little harder to mill but not that much more than white oak. And it doesn't require any finishing, just a little sanding brings out a "soft" glow. And it will last forever --- you've seen the fences around PA, farms, Gettysburg, etc., they are made out of locust an been around 300 - 400 years.

Again a little hard to mill and sometimes hard to find in the different sizes.
You probably will not find it kiln dried but it air dries pretty quickly. Ask the mill for "previously" cut stock.

Cost can also be an issue but being in western PA, you shouldn't have much of a problem. Around here, eastern PA, would expect to pay around $1.50 bd ft, white oak, around $2.50 bd ft.

(BTW, how do you tell white oak from red oak? Both have thin black "threads" in them. The length of them in red oak are rarely longer than 3/4", in white oak upwards to 2". And for not aware of it, white oak can be used outside, red oak it terrible outside).

HTH, Joe