Unisaw Kidnapped!!

[Dave Russell]

Hi There:

Amateur here and I bought a Delta Rockwell Unisaw at a yardsale for $300. Made the dumb mistake of not starting it first. Anyway, got my electrician to install a 30A breaker and a new cord end. He also wired it for 120 as it was set for 240. From what I can tell the saw is about 1970 vintage and has a 2hp single phase motor. Of course when the saw was plugged in basically nothing happened. Called Delta and they told me I have to bring it to a motor shop- which I did. Shop asked for $100 deposit and told me they would look at it. Anyway, these snakes gave me the following quote $320 diagnostic evaluation, $480 for repairs. I fell off my chair. When I told him this was crazy he said I could let him keep the saw. His work was: dismantle and clean, install switch, bearings and capacitor. Reinstall in saw. Also noted that a problem with magnetic starter, bad cord and incorrect control heater overload- not included in price. When I complained he reduced the quote to diagnostic $160, repairs for $320 if they just do work on motor and I install. I had no intention of dumping so much money into a 40 yr old saw. Any thoughts? Should I just get the saw back and sell as is or should I buy a new motor. Help?!

[Mike Heidrick]

Welcome Dave.

We need to see the nameplate on that motor. Got a camera?

Get the saw back before they do any more harm.

[Peter Quinn]

Get the saw back and get another opinion...that guy is a crook, old motor may not be worth repair in any event. Possibly look for another motor shop? New motor may be in order. May still be a good value as you paid only $300 for the saw. Any other problems with it? Arbor bearings? Trunnion gears?

That's my 2 cents plus a nickle.

[Randal Cobb]

He** no, don't sell it! You should be able to find a NEW motor from some of the sources that I'm sure will post soon for around $200, $250 (for the 2hp 115v motors). That 40 y/o saw will last forever and will easily be something you should be able to leave to your kids in your will.

[Mike Heidrick]

Know what an LVC is? Low Voltage controller. It looks like a steel box about 10"X13". Does it have one of those. If so open it up and take a picture of that as well.

[Dave Russell]

I've been scouring the web to get a close match. Yeah, I think it has a low voltage controller because I remember at the bottom rear was a cover about 7x9" and it had that LVL sticker on it. Thought it was a relay, opened it up and it was a maze of wires. Looks a lot like this one except it has the old fence and 6' chrome pipes. Pretty sure motor was a Delta and said 125/250V 2hp single phase.
Looks a lot like this Ebay item #360046233547

What does the LVL do? Any thoughts on starter, switch, etc?

Thanks all...

[Steve Flavin001]

and there's no assurance it needs a new motor yet, find a better and independent electric motor shop. It may not be quite as good a deal as you expected, but it should work out.

Give us the info off the plate.

[Steve Flavin001]

shooting information then work through it with you to narrow down the problem.

[Tom Henderson2]

Dave-

Before you took your saw over there did you discuss the extent of the work and the range of likely costs?

If he gave you a written estimate and has exceeded it by a substantial margin without your approval you probably have legal recourse.

If you dropped it off and didn't get a written estimate or give him a "do not exceed" dollar amount, then you have to accept part of the blame.

I have no way of knowing whether his charges are reasonable or not. I'm just saying that establishing a cost framework BEFORE doing the work is a shared responsibility.

My $0.02. I hope you get it resolved without additional difficulty.

.

[Mark Springer]

If you never authorized him to do the work then it is his problem. He is trying to rip you off. Probably just wants the saw for himself.

[Dave MacArthur]

Dave,
you may not have such an easy time of just "get the saw and go somewhere else".

If a shop tells me they won't even LOOK at it without a $100 deposit, that tells me that the cost is likely to exceed that by quite a bit. Since you didn't state any "do not exceed amount" was mandated, which I'm pretty certain I'd mention if I coordinated it, and since you clearly left the saw with the intent of SOMETHING being done to it, and since a minimum fee to even accept the thing BEFORE service was $100...
All this combines to tell me that it's likely the motor shop does indeed have a reasonable case. Just because you and I think something is not worth repairing at X cost, does not mean that a guy can't walk into a shop and ask folks to spend their valuable time/effort in doing it anyways. People spend WAAAY more to have old crappy furniture repaired because it's an "antique" all the time, than just tossing it and purchasing it new. Because you can buy a new functional one cheaper at WalMart for $40, does that negate your efforts if you're a furniture restorer to $40?

My point is, the poster may not have such an easy time of just "get the saw and go somewhere else". It sounds like the shop is essentially putting a "contractor's lien" on the thing--we did this much work per your request, pay up or we keep the saw as payment. My advice would be to GIVE HIM THE SAW.

Why? Because right now you're into it for $300 + $100 = $400. In the last month on Phoenix CraigsList there have been at least 15 cabinet saws of the PM66, Unisaw, Jet XActa, Griz 1023, old blue jet, rockwell unisaw... all for 700-$1300. All similar to old unisaw, all functioning with good working motors and 52" bies fences.

It was a bad move buying a saw you were not clear on the costs to refurbish (I wouldn't know either), and giving it to a guy with no upper limit, and sinking more money into it will be a worse move.
BAIL, write it up to a $400 life experience, and move on before you get bent over worse on this one. It's even likely the guy doesn't want the saw taking up space, and will back down further to maybe something reasonable if you just say "Fine, enjoy your saw".

Good luck to you though!

[Dave Russell]

This was an old fashion motor place and I did talk with the owner and all he told me was that a new motor would probably run $350 and he needed $100 deposit right now. I never dreamed a diagnostic would take more than that. Some guy handwrote a note on a generic repair order saying- "motor for repair" It's too bad when you have to get a legal agreement drafted when you drop off something that's close to 40 yrs old. Why not just call me and say it doesn't look good, what do you want me to do? In any event, I'm a busy dad and hobbyist so, as much as I'd love to fire this up, I'm not sure I want the headache. I'll try to get the saw back and send some photos and see what you guys think.

[Bob Wilkerson]

FWIW, take a look at http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/woodwork_motors.htm
for a new replacement motor costs.

I'm thinking that he's way too high for repair unless he's rewinding the motor. .... I'd think that he should be no more than $100 for the work described.

Bob

[Matt Meiser]

For one, places like electric motor shops don't typically deal with the general public. To a business, having someone just take care of the problem for several hundred bucks is worth the time in productivity savings. Industrial electric components are an expensive proposition, so it would surprise me in the least that repairing them is expensive.

[Wilbur Pan]

I had no intention of dumping so much money into a 40 yr old saw.

Something to think about: you may be operating from an incorrect assumption in that a 40 year old saw isn't worth much. Older woodworking machines often have features that don't make it into a spec sheet that often make them better than the modern day equivalent. In the case of your tablesaw, usually this comes in the form of heavier castings in the body and/or trunnions of the saw itself.

How much you want to go down this path depends in part on how mechanically inclined you are. The good thing is that there are resources out on the internet that can help you out (www.owwm.com) and that parts/bearings should still be available for your tablesaw.

From what you describe, it may be that all you need to do to rehab your saw is a new motor and magnetic switch. Grizzly has a 5 HP motor for $340, and a magnetic switch for $80. A name brand 5 HP motor (Baldor, Dayton) is another $150 or so. All these things can be found on eBay. The cost of new bearings is only about $10 each. Going with a 3 HP motor will save you a little money here.

But even if you buy all new parts to fix your tablesaw up with my suggestions, you'll be into your tablesaw for $800-900 total, and have a 5 HP cabinet saw, likely with beefier castings than current new import offerings, which tend to run in the $1200 range.

And if you are worried about how much mechanical skill it takes to do this, I've completely rebuilt a 60 year old bandsaw and a 65 year old lathe, and my day job is being a pediatrician, so I don't have any special mechanical training, other than knowing how to fix up my bicycle.

Otherwise, get the tablesaw back and sell it yourself. You'll be able to sell it for at least close to what you paid for it.

[Brian Smith3]

Hi Dave,
I'm new here but since this isn't a wood question I can answer it. I run a manufacturing company, and I am constantly dealing with getting welders fixed, chop saws, angle grinders, drill presses, staplers, etc. repaired or sold and replaced. Here's some things I have found helpful over the years.

1) Attitude is very important. Be polite, don't get angry, and detach any emotional feeling you may have to that particular saw. It's now a chunk of metal and wires, that you may or may not want, and he should know that you're not totally sure you still want it.

2) From here on out if it's not written down it doesn't exist. Write every step down and send it to the shop. Make it clear as possible so if someone were to sit down and read everything it would make sense. Email is better than letters IME because it seems less formal. Send him email even if he doesn't reply to it, follow it up by asking if he read your email when you talk in person, and tell him he needs to read your email. Rehash what your understanding of the situation is in the first email you send (Gave you the saw you said $350 for a motor then charged $900).

3) Make sure he gives you everything he's done in writing. Every little tiny thing he has done to get to that price. More is better. He must have a price for labor and a price for parts delineated (sounds like he already does this).


OK with those basic rules, this is what I would do given the story from your side. Clearly I can't tell you exactly how to handle it because I'm not in it.

I would absolutely stop the back and forth process. Have him delineate what he has done and give it to you. From there get him to write down on the order when he wants payment (payable by xyz date). Obviously you want to get time before he tries to take possession of the saw. Tell him you need to talk to your wife or whatever (ask if you can have until the end of the month, middle of next month, you don't get paid until every third full moon, industry standard is 30 days, whatever.)

Then take the work he has done, and get as many saw shops in the area to see if what he has done is reasonable. Tell them I took it here, he's telling me this, etc. tell them that you want to find a shop that you can work with in the future to do these kinds of repairs (because you really do) and you would appreciate if they could take some time to quote this.

Reasonable is the operative word here. If the work he has done is reasonable (ie fair market value) then typically the saw will have some value on the used market, and the other guys in the market will tell you (get all those repair quotes written down too) what that is. Then you will be able to add repair costs into what you have and make a good decision. If his prices aren't then you have some leverage (Talked to Joes Motors and he thinks you're way out of line on this. )

My personal evaluation:
It makes no sense that he would put all this money into the saw and then take possession over it. Repair shops don't stay in business this way. Taking used tools to scrap them or put more labor into trying to sell them is usually reserved as a total loser last resort.

This is a pretty big "poker tell" to me that he thinks the saw is worth more than he has into it, otherwise why would the motor guy want it? If the thing is not worth the repairs why would he get up to his hips in costs of fixing it, only so he can keep his work and lose money? Why would he not know this?

Normally he would say "Hey this thing is going to cost me $500 in labor, and new ones are $200 used ones are half that so I need to be paid on this up front, or get it out of here." Right? Why would he put money in labor and new parts into something he has to then take time and trouble to pull the new parts back out and then scrap out the rest or time and risk to put it on ebay or pawn broker or whatever? Unless he's only been in business for 30 days he knows how to make money on fixing old stuff, and he probably knows where there's money in the old stuff. Hope this helped.

[Dick Strauss]

Dave,
Brian3 has it right...This guy wants your saw and is willing to be dishonest so that you'll walk away from it and give it to him! Try to be diplomatic and offer to pay him $150-200 for his work and parts. If he doesn't budge on the charges, get the police involved and tell the police you didn't authorize the work beyond the diagnosis charge of roughly $100.

It shouldn't have taken him more than 1-1.5 hours of labor and $50-75 worth the parts ($200 max bill) if he knew what he was doing. Don't let him tell you the standard repair guide says it takes 0.5 hours of labor for this and 1.0 hours of labor for that. Those manuals are written as if only one process is done at a time (ie the motor casing is opened and closed for each repair). Once the motor casing is opened, each of these jobs should only take a 10 minutes or so to complete. As others have stated, the motor could have been replaced for $200-300. Heck, I could have done the repairs in 2-3 hours learning as I go while reading the repair guide.

If the guy gave you a verbal estimate of at least $100 (which is as good as a written contract) and he exceeds this by say 20%, he has to notify you by law to change the agreement. If he doesn't contact you and get your approval for additional work, you have no obligation to pay anything more! This would be like dropping your car off to have the oil changed ($40 estimate) and returning to find out they replaced your engine and are demanding you pay a $2000 bill before you can have your car back.

If all else fails tell him he can keep the motor and you'll take your saw since all he did was work on the motor!


Good luck,
Dick

[Steve Flavin001]

on track. Notwithstanding the various opinions, let's get tho the meat of the matter. Get the saw back in your possession if it isn't now and consider the following which seem to have fallen off track, with all due respect to all concrened. :eek:

We assume you have a hot 220 v. outlet source working properly. verify that.

Verify with with the use of a volt meter that you have 220 at the switch input.
Turn the switch on/off and verify the 220 is hot on the other side, e.g. that your problem is not simply a burned out switch. :confused:

Instead of a toggle switch (prev par.) you should have, depending on vintage of machine, instead, a magnetic switch which may have ben referred to in one of the first posts above. Similarly, verify the magnetic switch is working properly with the volt/ohm meter. If not, go no further and remove the magnetic switch to repair or MORE LIKELY replace it anyway.

After solving that, verify that you have 220 at the motor input. If not remove motor and take it in to a motor shop for a quotation and evaluation to see if it can be repaired or needs to be replaced. Depending on the quotation, decide the matter from a cost standpoint.

Feel free to send me a private note if you wish to discuss further. I look forward to hear the results of the above. :)

[Dick Strauss]

Dave,
Did he give you a reduced quote of $480 or did he give you a bill of $480 for work already completed and demand you pay it before you can have you saw? My previous note assumed you had received an bill demanding payment before your saw would be returned to you. I'm a little confused as others may be...

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Go get your saw and tell them you'll split the $100.00 deposit. If they refuse tell 'em they'll see you in small claims - and mean it.

Small claims is famous all around the country for splitting the baby. AND they will have been named in a lawsuit which will remain forever on the public record.

[Heather Thompson]

Don't let these fools mess you around, (had to edit my own post, TOS :rolleyes:). Tell us where you are located, maybe a fellow Creeker with sparky knowledge in your area, I can punch my way out of a wet paper bag in this area, but also know a true pro! If you still want to deep six the saw I may be interested in that old boat anchor. :D

Heather

[Dave Russell]

Not sure if I mentioned this already but the motor guy backed off his original quote and reduced his diagnostic/repair to 160/480 because I raised holy hell and told him I'll reinstall it myself. In any event, I played nice nice today, gave him a check for $60 and got it. He said the windings look good- and they do. He was basically going to clean the thing out, replace the starter, capacitor, and points and put it back together for another 320. I originally brought the whole saw in because I wanted him to identify problems in what I thought was a relay(LVC) or the switch. He told me all the other stuff was bad. And should be replaced. Peter at the Sawcenter told me I can just ditch the LVC, get a new switch and cables and wire it to the rebuilt motor. I'm mechanically inclined but I've never worked with electronics before. Any harm in replacing those things myself and putting it back together? Or just get the best price on a new motor? I'll post pics tomorrow. Thanks in advance!

[Dave Russell]

...I'm located in Worcester, MA

[Steve Flavin001]

turn for direction before spending any further effort. :cool: Located in Springfield, you might start with a call to their Unisaw Technial Supoport at Saw Center, 472 Main Street, M-F 9-5; Tech Support 413-734-2045. (Sales 800-850-8359). Their web site sawcenter.com has online manuals showing how to replace certain items, and so forth. I sent some material from their FAQ to you directly.

They might not be your final destination, but at least you will be speaking with Unisaw expert tech support who can direct you or answer your questions. :confused: You have acquired a potential gem; it is unfortunate that enjoyment of it was sidetracked in this motor issue. I wish you many happy board feet of travels once it is working! :cool:

[Dave Russell]

http://www.europeanresale.com/gallery/index.php?level=album&id=88

[Luther Oswalt]

Steve,
That is a very interesting Saw Repair Shop and their web site is interesting reading!
Leo

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Dave, I'm going to offer a dissenting opinion. I personally don't think what the shop wanted to charge is out of line, with a condition. Did he assume you wanted it put back to original? If so, his price is correct. If you are ok with new aftermarket parts, and told him that, I bet the price will go down. New old stock is expensive, and important to some people, but it sounds like you would rather not go that way.

[Nate Rogers]

My 2 cents here..I just recently delt with a motor repair on a similar saw of the same vintage...I very reputable place repaired it for about 350 parts and labor..I installed the motor myself, If repairman spends a couple hours testing and repairing the item do you really expect him to make 5$ a hour...He is a highly skilled person and he deserves to make a living. Parts aren't cheap, nor is real estate/utilities/insurance/ and the knowledge it takes to fix it. I think so few people understand what goes into running a business, and the costs associated. Everyone wants it for free

Nate

[Bill Wyko]

I'd contact Graingers with the info on the motor. You can probably buy one for what they were stroking you for.

[Jeff Clow]

I great source of info is OWWM.ORG. The guys on the forum rebuild old Unisaws everyday & are a wealth of information, from mechanical to electrical. They can help with electrical problems, mechanical rebuilds, alignment issues, parts sources, repaires, etc.
I have learned a ton of stuff about Unisaws from reading the forums, before I even tear into mine.