Extension Cords

[Teresa Jones]

Mornin' Guys,

I have clustered my power tools into the center of my designated shop space in my garage. This arrangement works well as I end up with a lot of surface area all at the same height.

Since there is no electrical outlet, I ran an extension cord from a wall outlet, up the wall, across the ceiling, and then it hangs down in the middle of the machine cluster.

All the equipment, table saw, router, joiner, planer, bandsaw, and dust collector are plugged into this single source. I only run a single machine and the dust collector at any given time.

Is there any danger in having the machines all plugged into a single source as long as they don't run all at the same time?

Is there any danger to my tools with this setup?

How would you do this differently?

As best I can ascertain, all the outlets in the garage are connected to a single fuse in the electrical box. There are some extra slots open.

Thanks,

TJ

[Lee Schierer]

Your only concern might be the power loss of the extension cord. Most that you can buy use light gauge wire and reall can't deliver the current needed to properly power a table saw. Also those multiple headed adapters thay make aren't rated for much power.

I would recommend that you get some #12 wire, or have some friendly electrican, hard wire an outlet for you in the ceiling and go to a shorter extension cord for the drop down. You want to use the heaviest extension cord you can lay your hands on.

Lee

[Jim Hill 2]

I have a shop in my 2 car garage and like you all my outlets were run to a single breaker. I would recommend buying a power strip that has it's own surge protection and plug your tools into that. I picked one up that is for power tools at Lowe's for around $30 and the peace of mind is worth it. That does not mean that I was not popping the breaker every once and a while. To avoid that I had an electrician install two more outlets in my garage( a 110 and a 220). I put my dust collection on the 110 and run my other tool off the power strip mentioned before on the original 110 breaker. With this setup I have not poped the breaker once and know my tools are safe. I also have a 220 breaker ready for the next BIG tool. FYI I paid the electrician about $150 to install the two drops in the wall and set up the two new breakers. Hope this helps.

[Stewart Crick]

Mornin' Guys,

I have clustered my power tools into the center of my designated shop space in my garage. This arrangement works well as I end up with a lot of surface area all at the same height.

Since there is no electrical outlet, I ran an extension cord from a wall outlet, up the wall, across the ceiling, and then it hangs down in the middle of the machine cluster.

All the equipment, table saw, router, joiner, planer, bandsaw, and dust collector are plugged into this single source. I only run a single machine and the dust collector at any given time.

Is there any danger in having the machines all plugged into a single source as long as they don't run all at the same time?

Is there any danger to my tools with this setup?

How would you do this differently?

As best I can ascertain, all the outlets in the garage are connected to a single fuse in the electrical box. There are some extra slots open.

Thanks,

TJ


TJ,

Another thing to look at is how much current are the tools drawing (during operation and start up)--the equipment manual or motor info plate will have it. If not you can contact the manufacturer. Also look at what size breaker the cord is running off. Finally look at the cord itself and determine if it is rated to handle the current load your running through it. You determine this be the wire size. Any electrician or big box electrical department staff can tell you the rating for your particular cord. It may even be marked on the cord.

HTH,

Stu

[Tyler Howell]

It's good to be King!
Is that how much I should be charging to install outlets for friends??wow!!!

TJ to reinforce what has been said in a different way. With your arrangement your tools aren't running a full capacity, working harder than they should causing premature failure. I've seen an over loaded drill burst into flames. (It was my dad's and I did it about forty years ago)
Get a couple dedicated drops as Lee suggested. (Not on the same breaker as lights) My vote is for...........You've heard it before....armoured cable or conduit.

[Teresa Jones]

You all have confirmed my suspicions.

It sounds as though I should invest in having an electrician install another breaker and wire it to an outlet dedicated to the tool cluster.

In the meantime, I am off to buy a correct size extension cord.

As always, SMC rocks.

TJ

[Jim Becker]

If time or money precludes more than one additional drop right now, at least get the DC on its own circuit and run the tool 'o the moment on the other...and use heavy 12 gauge extension cords, if you need to use them, as mentioned above. Hopefully, your lighting is already on a different circuit!

[Joe Tonich]

You all have confirmed my suspicions.

It sounds as though I should invest in having an electrician install another breaker and wire it to an outlet dedicated to the tool cluster.

In the meantime, I am off to buy a correct size extension cord.

As always, SMC rocks.

TJ

TJ,

HD now carries 12 gauge extension cords for about $35 ( I think it was $35 :confused: ). I saw them a couple of days ago at the one by me.

Joe

[Teresa Jones]

Well, after you all gave me so much to think about, I did a little investigating, starting at the breaker box.

The lights in the garage are on a completely separate circuit from the outlets. This circuit includes the plug into which the garage door opener is plugged, but I gather from your comments, I should not use this circuit for any of the equipment.

There are three separate circuits for the garage plug lineup.

One is dedicated to the freezer, so will leave that one alone.

The other two are GFI's available for running the equipment. I am going to run the dust collector on one circuit using a 12 gauge extension cord. I am going to use the other circuit for the large equipment, also using a 12 guage extension cord. All circuits are 15amp.

A review of the equipment revealed that the 13 inch planer draws the most amps at 15. The manual indicates a 15 amp circuit is sufficient. Now I understand why the dust collector should be on a separate circuit.

If it is true that you lose some power using an extension cord, then what do you lose from the power box to the outlet? Is the Romex wire that much bigger than a 12 guage extension cord?

Anyway, now I have to rerun the cords.

Thanks again for all your input.

TJ

[Carl Eyman]

The romex is probably 12 ga. Though for a 15 amp circuit 14 ga. is (or was) the standard. So, no, the romex is probably not any bigger than your extensions. However, the longer the run back to the panel the larger the wire should be. Using 12 ga extensions and keeping them no longer than necessary you should be fine.

[Jamie Buxton]

Hawser-like extension cords certainly won't hurt, but you probably can't perceive any benefit. Consider a 14 gauge extension cord. Say it is 25 feet long -- typical for a shop in a garage. Say you're running your thickness planer at its maximum depth of cut in hard maple, so maybe you actually get up to pulling 15 amps, which is the rating on most 115 volts sockets. Under these conditions, the 14 gauge cord is dropping about 25 watts. The planer is dropping 1700 watts or so. That is, the loss in the extension cord is completely inconsequential.

Heck, if you were using a 16 gauge extension cord under these conditions, it'd be dropping only 40 watts -- still pretty invisible compared to the 1700 watts being used by the machine.

[Jim Becker]

I have to respectfully disagree with Jamie on this one...using a small guage extension cord can certainly affect performance to varying degrees, but more importanly it can be a fire hazard from heat generation. One should always use wire that is the proper gauge for the rated amperage load over the length of the extension run. The same resistance that causes loses also generates heat; sometimes a lot. The minimum extension wire gauge for an 15 amp circuit/tool would be 14 guage in most cases if it's short, but using a 12 guage gives you some additional headroom and/or distance. And the cost difference isn't that much when you consider that a well-cared for extension cord will be with you for many years.

[Jamie Buxton]

I have to respectfully disagree with Jamie on this one...using a small guage extension cord can certainly affect performance to varying degrees, but more importanly it can be a fire hazard from heat generation. One should always use wire that is the proper gauge for the rated amperage load over the length of the extension run. The same resistance that causes loses also generates heat; sometimes a lot. The minimum extension wire gauge for an 15 amp circuit/tool would be 14 guage in most cases if it's short, but using a 12 guage gives you some additional headroom and/or distance. And the cost difference isn't that much when you consider that a well-cared for extension cord will be with you for many years.


Jim, we agree on the objective, but the numbers don't support your caution. In the case of my example -- a 14 gauge extension cord carrying 15 amps -- the resistance generates about 1 watt per foot of cord. One watt just doesn't heat things up very much at all.

[Tyler Howell]

:(Please install the dedicate outlets as suggested. An X cord was never intended for a permanent installation. TJ, you have permanent shop set up, that requires a permanent solution.
All,
When a Creeker comes for spin ideas, or finishing techniques we don't give them temp ideas to tide them over. If this is a set up to hold you till you finish building that fabulous shop area, you have my blessing.
There is an assumption that all X cords are created equal. Some you pull off the display at the Borg are inductive welded, some stamped together , some have reduced capacity connectors, Many X rayed molded plugs were found to have shorted or open connections. and no continuity to ground at all. I tested one that had reverse polarity.

Another consideration is looking down the road to expansion. TJ is a cabinet saw in your future? Have you considered wiring up your existing saw and DC for 220?? Runs cooler! more get up and go!!
Are you getting that 60 gal IR compressor any time soon.

I'm sure there are WW out there with X cords made of zip cord and speaker wire that will never have a problem. The odds are not in their favor.

Fweeuuu! Now I can sleep.

Tyler
Knowledge Is Power

[Teresa Jones]

Tyler,

Please don't change your Avatar - I really love that photo!!

I am going to have the outlets installed as soon as I can.

I am planning on a cabinet saw in the future, but it will have to be in another shop because mine is already busting at the seams!!

I have a healthy respect for all things electrical.

TJ

[Tyler Howell]

[QUOTE=Teresa Jones]Tyler,

Please don't change your Avatar - I really love that photo!!

SEEEEEEE! The ladies Like it! That's Allllll that counts!:cool::cool::cool:

[Chris Padilla]

Ah, Teresa, you blew it! Now with a lady telling him he looks good, you can just forget anything anyone else will tell him! Sigh....:rolleyes:

:p

[Rob Russell]

TJ,

Sorry I missed this thread earlier, or I would have responded in a more timely manner.

There should be no problem with having a bunch of machines plugged into an appropriately-sized extension cord as long as your running load is under the rated capacity of the cord. I can think of a number of circumstances where it’s impractical to install hard-wired circuits for a workshop. Rented space is a good example, or military guys’n gals who don’t want to spend the money on a place they’re only going to be in for a few years before they move on to their next tour of duty.

The biggest problem I’d see with a hanging extension cord is that of strain relief. A smaller item to consider is the secureness of the additional connection points, for example where the extension cord plugs into the wall.

If you have a bunch of machines plugged into a hanging cord, it is possible that the cord is hanging in mid air with a bunch of stuff hanging off of it. A regular extension cord isn’t built to take the physical stress of the weight hanging on the plug like that. Over time, the plug will want to separate from the cord and the electrical connections themselves will be carrying part of the physical load of hanging stuff in the air. The solution is to make sure that your hanging cord rests on something – the floor or a shelf – so the weight of the plugs isn’t hanging on the extension cord. I’d also make sure that the extension cord, where it hangs from the ceiling, has a curve to support it at the hang point so you don’t crimp the conductors inside the extension cord. Similarly, you want to make sure that, where your extension cord plugs into the feeding receptacle, you don’t have too tight a bend in the extension cord.

I do agree with Jim Becker that an under-sized cord is a problem. The smaller conductors can cause heat buildup. Smaller conductors also restrict the inrush current which can cause premature wear on your tools’ motors, especially for tools that start and stop a lot. If you’re planning on running a “main” extension cord to your machine cluster, I’d run a 12 gauge cord and, if possible, use a 25’ cord instead of a 50’ cord.

This is probably all a moot point now. :)

Rob

[Dan Mages]

Another thing to consider is the safety aspect of it all. I was taught by my grandfather never to leave tools plugged in when they are not in use. There is always a small chance that you can accidently bump your tool and set it off.

Dan

[Brian Walter]

Tyler, you gave really good information to Teresa, except I don't see how running a motor on 240 volts verses 120 will allow it to run any cooler. I have seen this written before, but the physics don't seem to back it up.

Motors that can be wired for either 120 or 240 will have two windings in them. Wired for 240, the windings are in series. In this situation you have a simple voltage divider network with 240 volt drop across the two windings or 120 volt drop across each. Wired for 120 volt, the windings are in parallel with 120 volts across the pair, but it is still 120 volts across each winding. In each case power, P = E*E/R and since the voltage E across each winding is the same and the resistance R hasn't changed, the power is the same. This is as would be expected, the motor doesn't put out any more power wired for 240 volts than it does for 120 volts (neglecting line drop). If it was a 1 hp motor wired for 240 volts, it is still 1 hp wired for 120 volts.

If you take line drop into consideration, you will have slightly more line drop in the 120 volt circuit than the 240 volt, so the voltage available to the motor will be slightly less resulting in less power and less heat. So I agree with you on the more get up and go, but not on the running cooler.

All that being said, I am not an expert on electric motors, so I may have missed something important. But I did grow up in a family of electrical engineers and technicians, so some of it rubbed off, whether I liked it or not. If I have missed something please correct me, I have been wrong before, but don't tell my wife.

Brian Walter

[Tyler Howell]

Brian,

The thread was focused at X cords/ installed outlets. When the discussion gets into a debate of current capacity of this cord and that it's time to say Just Do It.

In your own quote you state.

"If you take line drop into consideration, you will have slightly more line drop in the 120 volt circuit than the 240 volt, so the voltage available to the motor will be slightly less resulting in less power and less heat. So I agree with you on the more get up and go, but not on the running cooler."


The product of line loss is heat which in it self opposes the flow of electrons. If a motor is not running at its rated speed it is not, self cooling again opposing more electron flow, increased resistance more heat.

I like 220, I'm hooking up all my toyls that can handle it. I offered TJ choices based on xyz reasons.

[Brian Walter]

Tyler,

Your reply made me do some more checking. You are correct that a slight drop in line voltage can make a motor generate more heat. Under most operating conditions the drop in line voltage will be extremely small and have little affect on a motor. But when a motor is loaded to the point that it starts to slow down, it becomes less efficient and will generate slightly more heat. This effect can be accelerated slightly by the additional line drop associated with a 120 volt line. But keep in mind, if the house is wired according to code, this difference in line drop will be very small, so I wouldn't expect any noticeable difference in heat.

One item that I'm sure you are aware of that others might not be is GFI protection. I don't know if all electric codes require GFI on 240 lines, but if used in a garage workshop type of environment it is definitely is a good idea to have. GFI protection for a 240 line is quite expensive compared to 120 lines. You can buy a 120 volt GFI recepticle for around $5-$10 and a 120 volt GFI circuit breaker for around $30, but the 240 volt circuit breakers I've seen are more like $100. I haven't seen any 240 volt GFI recepticles, so I can't comment price for them.

As I indicated in my first reply, I had no problem with your extention cord or wiring adivice, and actually think it was very good adivice. I simply don't think a person should switch their motors from 120 to 240 primarily in the hopes that the motors will run cooler, it simply isn't going to make much difference. It's fairly common knowledge that if you switch a motor from 120 to 240 you will cut the current draw in half. But this leads to the common misconception that half the current will mean half the heat. This is totally untrue for the reasons I stated in the previous reply. This is the primary reason I posted the first reply.

Brian Walter

[Dale Thompson]

Brian,

The thread was focused at X cords/ installed outlets. When the discussion gets into a debate of current capacity of this cord and that it's time to say Just Do It.

In your own quote you state.

"If you take line drop into consideration, you will have slightly more line drop in the 120 volt circuit than the 240 volt, so the voltage available to the motor will be slightly less resulting in less power and less heat. So I agree with you on the more get up and go, but not on the running cooler."


The product of line loss is heat which in it self opposes the flow of electrons. If a motor is not running at its rated speed it is not, self cooling again opposing more electron flow, increased resistance more heat.

I like 220, I'm hooking up all my toyls that can handle it. I offered TJ choices based on xyz reasons.



Tyler,
I agree with Teresa, your new avatar is really cute. :cool: :cool: :eek:

My take on this is pretty simple: An electric motor will only take as many amps as it needs to perform efficiently. On the other hand, it will take all of the volts that it can get, even to the point of self destruction. Since voltage is limited by the power company, that is not a problem. I'm not sure that I understand all of this discussion about heat buildup, motor slowdown and "bursting into flame". :eek: Give the motor the amps that it needs at the required voltage and there will be no problem. :confused:

I, too, like to wire my "bigger" stuff to 220v supplies. However, that is primarily due to the fact that I would much rather work with #14 wire than with #10. As far as I know, within reason, the ONLY advantage to 220v is the wire size required. With 220v, each "leg" carries only half the amps and, therefore, levels out the load. I can't see where a home/garage shop would have runs long enough to make any difference in terms of IR drops and, thereby, heat buildup. In any event, a properly "fused" source should obviate the entire concern.

OK - so I'm brain dead! :o :( :confused: Just be nice. I am a VERY sensitive person! ;) ;)

Dale T.

[Robert Ducharme]

Tyler,
I agree with Teresa, your new avatar is really cute. :cool: :cool: :eek:

My take on this is pretty simple: An electric motor will only take as many amps as it needs to perform efficiently. On the other hand, it will take all of the volts that it can get, even to the point of self destruction. Since voltage is limited by the power company, that is not a problem. I'm not sure that I understand all of this discussion about heat buildup, motor slowdown and "bursting into flame". :eek: Give the motor the amps that it needs at the required voltage and there will be no problem. :confused:

I, too, like to wire my "bigger" stuff to 220v supplies. However, that is primarily due to the fact that I would much rather work with #14 wire than with #10. As far as I know, within reason, the ONLY advantage to 220v is the wire size required. With 220v, each "leg" carries only half the amps and, therefore, levels out the load. I can't see where a home/garage shop would have runs long enough to make any difference in terms of IR drops and, thereby, heat buildup. In any event, a properly "fused" source should obviate the entire concern.

OK - so I'm brain dead! :o :( :confused: Just be nice. I am a VERY sensitive person! ;) ;)

Dale T.

Dale, I am not certain what you said above is totally clear or correct. Let us use some ballpark numbers.

If a machine uses 20 Amps at 120 volts, it will use 10 Amps at 240 volts (Please ignore being inexact because the absolute number is not critical to the point I am trying to make). Up above, you say that each leg only carries half the current if running 240. Yes it carries half the current from that of a 120 circuit but each leg is carrying the full current for the 240v. In other words, each leg, in the example above, is carrying 10 Amps.

This is probably what you meant but when I read the words, I could see how it could be taken as each leg carrying 5 Amps which could have resulted in someone wiring something without it having sufficient current carrying capacity.

[Teresa Jones]

Wow, I didn't realize the discussion was on-going.

Tomorrow morning the electrian arrives at 8:00am. They are quoting me $300 to add a 20amp circuit breaker and wire a receptacle to it, so the $150 quoted earlier sounds like a better deal!!

I am planning on discussing the arrangement with the electrian to determine the best course of action. The electrian works for a large company here, McBride. I don't know if they get paid a salary or if they get paid by the job.

Anyway, I was thinking I would have another circuit and receptacle added to be dedicated to the dust collector. Then I would have him wire a receptacle from one of the existing circuits and locate it over the work area. This would provide three different circuits in the workshop.

While he is here, I am going to see if he can add 3 additional light fixtures to the existing circuit for the other two fixtures. That would give me 5, 4 foot, double florescent fixtures on a single switch. Don't know if that is doable or not.

Thanks again.

TJ

P.S. OK, Tyler, the new avatar is good, but I still like the original!!!

[Tyler Howell]

#1 TJ so glad Sparky is coming. I truely hope he/she can provide a flexible and safe environment for you to persue your craft.;) ;)

#2 Cheeeeese! Don't be calling me cute.:p

Enough Said

[Dale Thompson]

Dale, I am not certain what you said above is totally clear or correct. Let us use some ballpark numbers.

If a machine uses 20 Amps at 120 volts, it will use 10 Amps at 240 volts (Please ignore being inexact because the absolute number is not critical to the point I am trying to make). Up above, you say that each leg only carries half the current if running 240. Yes it carries half the current from that of a 120 circuit but each leg is carrying the full current for the 240v. In other words, each leg, in the example above, is carrying 10 Amps.

This is probably what you meant but when I read the words, I could see how it could be taken as each leg carrying 5 Amps which could have resulted in someone wiring something without it having sufficient current carrying capacity.

Robert,
Sorry that I didn't use numbers like YOU did, I just cut the value in half! Now I'M confused! If a motor takes 30 amps to run efficiently at 240 v, it will also take 30 amps to run efficiently at 120v. The difference is that 240v allows "two" paths for the current. Being very smart, nature divides the current in half and each of the two "legs" will carry 15 amps. That was the basis of my comment about using "smaller" wire for 240v than for 120v. It's kind of similar to the fact that the voltage drop across all branches of a parallel circuit is equal. Surprisingly enough, water flow in a pipe system uses the same equations as used in electricity with regard to flow division.

I'm getting tired of apologizing for all of my posts. :o ;) What you heard is not what I said and what I said is not what I meant. I don't know what I meant but it's not what I said. I can't believe I said that because it's not what I meant but I said it anyway. With that said, I hope that I have cleared up any confusion as to what I didn't say because that either is or isn't what I meant.?? :confused: :confused: :D :rolleyes: :)

Robert, did I hear you correctly that a motor drawing 20 amps at 120v will run on 10 amps with 240v. I think that you will get arguements on THAT one! :)

Dale T.

[Jim Becker]

I'll add to Dale's comments that it's important to understand that a dual-voltage (120v/240v) motor is "actually" running on 120v internally no matter "what way the plug is configured". That's why you have to move the wires to different places in the junction box on the motor when you convert voltages. When you make those changes, you are adjusting the path that the electricity makes its way through the windings. In all cases, the windings are getting 120v. The motor also uses the same "amount of electricity" (watts)...and the same total amperage is drawn as Robert eluded to.

BTW, to add further confustion to the matter, there are some motors that are engineered such that they may have slightly more horsepower when running on 240v, but that's an exception, rather than something universal.

[Dale Thompson]

#1 TJ so glad Sparky is coming. I truely hope he/she can provide a flexible and safe environment for you to persue your craft.;) ;)

#2 Cheeeeese! Don't be calling me cute.:p

Enough Said


Hey Tyler,

There are some things that I can control and others that I can't. Viking fans are just plain CUTE!! If a guy LOOKS like a Viking fan, ACTS like a Viking fan, GRINS like a Viking fan, BRAGS like a Viking fan and doesn't have a statue of Brett Favre in his front yard, he MUST be a Viking fan. As I said. I can't control EVERYTHING - make that - I can't control ANYTHING!! :) :) :cool:

Dale T.