Days Gone Bye

[Sean Troy]

I'm in the process of remodeling an upstairs double bathroom and yesterday I removed a couple of vanities that were installed in the mid sixties. One of the things that amazed me was the construction of the vanities. They were built out of 3/4 inch 3 ply plywood that only had 3 plys each 1/4" thick. Do they even make nice ply like that anymore? The fronts, drawers and doors were made out of solid Maple. When I noticed all this after removing the top, I thought these would make great shop cabinets. Wrong ! The installer used 8 penny nails every 3 inches in every possible direction you could imagine to nail these to the three walls. No exageration, every 3 inches. I wonder what could possibly be going through his head as he was installing these? Yep, I invented some new words yesterday as I was removing these peice by peice. Sawzalls sure are a great tool.

[Greg Heppeard]

Sounds like the installer meant it to stay forever, unlike most today, a couple of screws or nails is good enough.

[Richard M. Wolfe]

I've never heard of three ply plywood, much less seen any. But I guess that anything that can be made has been made. I only really got into woodworking in the early eighties and am not around remodels so don't really know what was available. I do remember the first time I saw plywood in something besides veneer core....thought it was pretty odd.

As far as the things being nailed I would think today's construction would be nailed much better, or at least more, than in 'days of yore'. With the advent of pneumatic nailers there are likely twice as many nails in stuff now.....pulling a trigger is sure easier than swinging a hammer.

[Brian Elfert]

Are thicker plys really better in plywood? You would think thicker plys would make plywood less expensive to produce since there would be less glueing and so on.

Everybody seems to love Baltic Birch plywood in part because it has more plys.

I use screws to fasten stuff like cabinets and they don't move over years and years. My island overhead cabinets would be much more difficult to secure with nails although by no means impossible. There is no reason to go way overkill with nails.

[J. Z. Guest]

Ha! Good story, thanks for sharing. I'm amazed at how far we've fallen too. I need to replace some windowsills in my Mom's garage, which I believe was built in the late 1930s.

The 2x4s are actually 2" thick! :eek:

When did they lower the nominal dimensions of a 2x4 to a 1.5x3.5? I'd like to find that guy who made that decision and kick him.

[Stephen Edwards]

When did they lower the nominal dimensions of a 2x4 to a 1.5x3.5? I'd like to find that guy who made that decision and kick him.

I'm not sure when the standard become 1.5 x 3.5. However, it must have been a gradual process. I've done repair work on older buildings where the milled studs were 1 5/8 x 3 5/8. If I remember correctly, that was the standard when I was a kid around these parts.

It's easy to understand how it came to pass that that the finished size of a "2 x 4" is what it is today; More yield from the same log.

[Sean Troy]

Talking about studs, after removing drywall this week, I see all the studs are Southern Yellow Pine.

[Peter Quinn]

I had a mason in my basement last week estimating a new slab for my shop expansion...he looked up at the framing in amazement!

2 X12 measures 2X12! Wow. Beautiful framing, they even notched the joists perfectly where they meet the foundation wall and carrying beam under the porch to create a slight pitch away from the house. Makes the ceiling a bit pitched when you look up from below!

Then the gentleman pulled out his ruler and measured the carrying beam...8" X10"X 45' solid beam! He kept walking up the center of the house looking for the splices. The total run of the carrying beam is 75' with one pegged half lap splice over an 8" X 8" pier near the middle.

On the down side my house is an early California Bungalow kit, I've seen it in a catalogue from the late 1890's. Seems the New England framers who assembled it weren't sure what the extra stud around the doors and windows was for, so they nailed the jack stud to the outside of the king on most openings and a few of the doorways have developed a bit of sag! Makes hanging new doors in the old openings a real interesting process.


Yup...gotta love old work. I'll take my springy over spaned 2X12's over stiff modern boring LVL's or I joists any day.

[Dave Burris]

I was rather amazed at the construction of my house when I started the remodel. All the wall studs are true 2x4s and the ceiling joists are all true 2x6s. I had to rip out a wall in the hallway to enlarge the master bath and I almost started to cry. I salvaged as much as I could and used it in my shop. It's a shame materials have gone down in actual size while prices have rocketed up.

[Rick Hubbard]

I've never heard of three ply plywood, much less seen any.

“Back when” I worked in a plywood factory we made 3 ply 3/4 in plywood in interior grade only. The veneer used in interior plywood can have a high moisture content (8-9%) because of the kind of glue used (water, powdered blood, wheat flour and LOTS of Sodium Hydroxide). On the other hand the absolute max moisture content for exterior plywood is 5%, again because of the type of glue used (water, phenolic thermosetting resin, wheat flour and very small amounts of Sodium Hydroxide).

Interior plywood is almost a thing of the past these days, and therefore, so is 3 ply 3/4 inch.

The economics behind all this is that it takes a VERY long time to dry ¼ inch veneer to <5% moisture content, and even then, the veneer surface becomes case-hardened and exterior glues will not penetrate far enough to create a good bond. ¾ inch panels are pressed for around 11 minutes at a temp of 290 degrees. If the wood has too much moisture content the panels will either literally explode in the places where moisture is highest or they will bow very badly.

Incidentally, the reason we see so much badly bowed plywood these days is because veneer with borderline-high MC is used (because it is dried so fast) and because press times are being run shorter. The panels don’t blow- instead they warp!

Rick

[Lee Koepke]

I'm not sure when the standard become 1.5 x 3.5. However, it must have been a gradual process. I've done repair work on older buildings where the milled studs were 1 5/8 x 3 5/8. If I remember correctly, that was the standard when I was a kid around these parts.

It's easy to understand how it came to pass that that the finished size of a "2 x 4" is what it is today; More yield from the same log.
..........side bar ...........

I once got into a 'discussion' with a fire inspector because my piping, according to code, should be supported by a 2x4 lumber ... in acutuality the supporting member was 1 5/8 x 3 5/8 ... need to get certification from structural engineer to approve the reduction in member sizing ... hahaha ... what a day THAT was ....

[Ellen Benkin]

2 x 4 s were really 2x4 before they were "finished" on all four sides. My house, built in 1927, has real 2x4s and they are all rough lumber.

[Jim Becker]

Can you manuver a reciprocating saw with a long blade in to cut off the nails holding things to the wall?

[Sean Troy]

Can you manuver a reciprocating saw with a long blade in to cut off the nails holding things to the wall?
I wish. It was drywalled around.

[Chris Padilla]

..........side bar ...........

I once got into a 'discussion' with a fire inspector because my piping, according to code, should be supported by a 2x4 lumber ... in actuality the supporting member was 1 5/8 x 3 5/8 ... need to get certification from structural engineer to approve the reduction in member sizing ... hahaha ... what a day THAT was ....

LOL! Two-by-four (2x4) no longer is a measurement and has become a noun to represent a wood stud of some standard (today's) size. It is funny that he would take the old direct meaning of it into account!

[Tim Byars]

I got both extremes when I bought my house 6 years ago. Built in 1957 by a fellow who I have since heard owned a lumberyard, it's as stout as can be with "real" 2x4, 2x12, etc. (By the way...according to my inspector at the time, at least local jargon calls such a phenomenon a "full cut" home. Is that phrase in wide usage for such a thing?)

Then when I started discovering what the "contractor" who fixed it up for sale in 2001 did, I started pulling my hair out. Cobbling together an extension of the kitchen cabinets in the most ramshackle manner possible, for example. And the crowning jewel was a new toilet in a back bathroom...the drain was positioned for a older toilet needing less clearance in back, and the new one needed 2 extra inches...it sat only half way over the drain hole. So he screwed it down, and caulked reeeaal good around the base. That toilet doesn't get heavy use, so we didn't even find this out for a couple years. I have fantasies of that flip-contractor trying to cross the street in front of my car one day.

[Jim Becker]

I wish. It was drywalled around.

Drywall is cheap...'could be worth the effort to carefully extract them however you must.

[Sean Troy]

Drywall is cheap...'could be worth the effort to carefully extract them however you must.
Too late. If I had more time maybe but I had to have all the demo done before tommorrow when the plumber gets here to do his thing. I have family comming out next week and need the project done. I'm not sure if it would have been worth all the cursing for two cabinets. When I said the installer nailed every 3 inches I forgot to mention he angled every other one also. I know he had to be laughing when he did it thinking some poor slob is going to try and get these out some day. Yeah, I'm that poor slob.

[Bruce Wrenn]

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