building a bench

[Andy Pratt]

I'll be building my first traditional hardwood woodworking bench and wanted to run my basic concept by you guys before starting work.

It will be a pretty standard set up: roughly 30" wide, 5-6' long, LV twin screw vise on the end and undecided on the front vise, no dust tray and tool drawers starting 6-8" below the top. I'll be making the top out of 3"X1"X30" hard maple pieces. Not sure on how best to do the apron/leg structure yet. It seems like most people make their benches out of longer boards, going the length of the bench as opposed to the width, so I was looking for feedback in this area. Is there any reason what I'm planning on doing isn't standard, or anything special I should do with the support structure to account for it?

I'll probably do two rows of round dog holes opposite the twin screw and another set opposite whatever front vise I go with.

Thanks,
Andy

[Cary Swoveland]

Andy, do you want to be able to work from all sides of the bench, or will it be against a wall? Are you constrained on length? It seems a little short to me, yet overly deep. Note that you don't have to make the top the same thickness everywhere; you mainly need thickness where you're doing heavy hand work.

Cary

[Greg Hines, MD]

You would have one problem for sure with that arrangement. When you laminate your maple across the short width of your bench, and then try to use your tail vise with it, you risk de-laminating your benchtop. Between your dogs and the vise, you are applying pressure across the glue joints, which makes it more likely for a glue failure.

This is the same argument that many have made with regard to using a front vise and bench dogs with a traditional arrangement. In your case, that would be a better way to do it.

Doc

[John Thompson]

I won't make a comment yet Andy... but will ask the question of "why" you are planning to laminate the maple side to side as opposed to end to end? Did you just have maple shorts (30" or so) and want to utilize it for that or is there another reason?

Regards...

Sarge..

[Don C Peterson]

Running the grain crossways would greatly diminish the structural rigidity of the bench. There's a very good reason that the grain is usually oriented along the length of the bench. Of course you could compensate with some sort of bracing structure underneath.

[John Thompson]

I wasn't going to comment yet until I heard your answer on "why". Greg has touched a point.. Don has nailed it shut. But... if you have shorts on hand and decide to use them in that manner, they will need structual support as Don mentioned.

If you do proceed I can post some pics of how you can create all the support you will need for the un-orthodox method you're using. Let us know and good luck.

Sarge..

[Andy Pratt]

I am trying to make use of some short pieces of maple that I've gotten a good deal on. You make an excellent point with the risk of delamination. In order to counter that, one of the ideas I'm batting around is to run 3/8 threaded rod through the length of the bench (it will be a pain to line up the drill holes, but I think I can get it if I drill oversize and line up carefully. I would run three rods, 6' long and roughly 8" apart, combined with the glue strength I would think that this should fix the problems. I hadn't even thought of this until you guys brought it up, I was just planning the rods for extra strength, so this sounds like all the more reason to do it. Anything else I should consider here? I could always throw a layer of plywood/mdf below the top and screw up into the top from the bottom to add extra strength/weight.

Thanks for your help everyone.

[Chris Padilla]

I would get some longer stock to wrap an apron around the whole thing and not mess with threaded rod but that is me. :)

[Don C Peterson]

Andy,

It seems that the rods would help with the delamination problem, but I doubt they would help all that much with the stiffness issue. My inclination would be to lay the pieces lengthwise just arrange them in an offset pattern so that there is plenty of overlap, kind of like a brick wall or how wood floors are typically laid out.

I did this with 2" thick oak that I salvaged from old church benches and it has worked great. I did provide additional support in the form of a 4x4 beam running down each side, but I was dealing with 2" thick stock instead of 3". The only thing I would do differently is pay better attention to which way the grain was running for each piece, so it made it a pain to flatten, but other than that, it's been great.

[John Thompson]

You could lay them out lenght-wise random as Don suggested. If you want to take the time you could box-joint the random pieces end to end. I did similar once with left over shorts no longer than 13" with finger joints. A freind has a custom door business and I used his machine. I will say it still sits in my BIL's shop and has remained flatter than any of the over 20 I have built. I was told it wouldn't work well. Go figure...

Now.. if you still want to go side to side... may I suggest what I refer to in my work-bench design as a "whale-back". A long piece under-neath center from end-top-cross stretcher to the other end to stop center sag. And with the top going side to side.. I would put one center.. and a smaller one on each side. You tie them into the end-across stretchers with a sadde joint or what is normally called a bridle.

Open the show-thread and look at the base without the top. Dis-regard the read and just look at the pictures to see the whale-back. By putting one on each side off center.. it would support the entire side to side top and you can use your shorts.

Good luck... http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=847183&postcount=13

BTW.. if you do go side to side.. you must take clamping as an issue. You will eventuallu need around 72" long clamps. Do you have enough bar clamps that lenght to pull that off? You can probably get away with 5.. but with the depth of face on a bar clamp.. if it's a thick top (I make em 3" thick).. I would have no less than 10.. 5 on bottom and 5 on top.. Or have a good caul system lined up.
Sarge..

[Randy Klein]

If I were you, I'd read Chris Schwarz's book about workbenches. It has lots of good info about various configurations. I'm currently building a Roubo/Holtzappfel bench.

[Chris Padilla]

Interesting dilemas brought up. I don't mean to hijack but I gotta ask:

How does this "crossgrain, delamination" issue fit in with a bench top made of end-grain?

I have several maple butcher-block tops I got for cheap: 18" x 36" x 1.5" I planned to crosscut them into strips and turn the strips with end-grain up/down to create a benchtop of maple end-grain. Now I'm concerned! :(

[John Thompson]

First you would have to ask Greg about the issue he brings up about delamination from vise pressure. IMO it would not de-laminate under standard clamping pressure from a vise. In 36 years I have never requested my vises to do the job a cum-a-long was meant to do.

Andy is just attempting to use shorts left over but... he will still be face glueing long grain to long grain which creates structual integrity.. but by going side to side it will create a weight burden that would probably take away from that integrity and sag. Enough sag and that could de-laminate as I see it.

So.. I personally don't think de-lamination from a vise is the main issue. I feel the weight is by going side to side. But... if Andy has the shorts on hand and he counters the sag from shear weigh with proper under-neath longitual support as has been suggested.. it will be fine. For that matter he can bring it by my shop.. I would build it and gaurantee that if would be structually sound. That's how confident I am that it will work if properly handled.

Now the new issue with your butcher block top. If faced with it personally.. would I abandon the idea as weight again becomes the issue with little long grain glued. No.. I would definitely proceed to use it to save money. Work-benches are very simple pieces until we find ways to complicate that.

What I would do in your case would be to in-corporate 3 or 4 standard maple (your choice) pieces running end to end "between" your butcher block strips to give some longitutal support to the set-up. Then I would sit the whole thing on a sheet of good laminated plywood and border with more continuos lenght standard maple on the outer perimeter.

I would also use at least one of my "whale-backs" to support all that and maybe 3.. depending on how I judged it structually after I added the border and under-carriage. Put it between two saw horses and get a few fat hinny freinds to stand on it. You'll know if it will give and need additional support at that point.

So again personally.. I would jump at the chance to use them if I had them, but with all the cons in mind and a way to turn the cons into a "non issue". IMO.. should make a fine top if handled properly.

Regards...

Sarge..

[michael osadchuk]

.....I agree with Don and John in laying the laminations lengthwise with offsets on the end glue joints; I don't believe "box jointing" the end to end glue joints is needed (didn't do it on my bench of 2 3/4" maple laminations years ago without any problems)

.... there are lots of write ups on the forums, books on making and flattening such a laminated benchtop.....no need for threaded rods, biscuits, etc.

.....Not having an apron would allow you to use clamps under the benchtops on glue ups as well as on top; but the real advantage is maximizine use of space under the benchtop for a full length handy-but-protected tool tray for most often used tools, etc.

..... I used the smallest of the three sizes of Record quick-grip vises on the front and found it sufficient

...also have a LV twin screw on the end; it's a good vise and I encourage you to study the instructions (should be online at the LV site) before you commit to how you attach the benchtop to a base.....

... agree with where you see the dog holes going


enjoy the adventure

michael

[Chris Padilla]

Now the new issue with your butcher block top. If faced with it personally.. would I abandon the idea as weight again becomes the issue with little long grain glued. No.. I would definitely proceed to use it to save money. Work-benches are very simple pieces until we find ways to complicate that.

Of course, I live to complicate any project in woodworking. That is part of the hobby that is the funnest for me. :D I also like to make unique things.


What I would do in your case would be to in-corporate 3 or 4 standard maple (your choice) pieces running end to end "between" your butcher block strips to give some longitutal support to the set-up. Then I would sit the whole thing on a sheet of good laminated plywood and border with more continuos lenght standard maple on the outer perimeter.

Now that is an excellent idea that will still allow my idea to be incorporated. It might even be KEWL to make the strips of some local walnut. I had always planned to set the whole thing on a couple sheets of plywood/MDF to get some serious beef/heft/weight. I'll be using Noden's adjust-a-legs for the support/legs.


I would also use at least one of my "whale-backs" to support all that and maybe 3.. depending on how I judged it structually after I added the border and under-carriage. Put it between two saw horses and get a few fat hinny freinds to stand on it. You'll know if it will give and need additional support at that point.

Perhaps you provided a link about these "whale-backs" but I can guess that they are slightly raised in their middle and taper a hair towards either end so that they flex when you attach them to the underside of the bench top? Kinda like the bowclamp caul?

Fat friends, eh? Now where can I find some chubby chums...here in America? :confused: :rolleyes:

[John Thompson]

Chris.. go back to the show-link I used .. open it and look closely at the top of the legs.. The post actually describes how I don't pin my top down. I use 4 (one on each corner) bullet shaped dowels that stick up 7/8" off the top of the leg. Drill corresponding holes in the bottom of the top and it just sits there with "gravity".

Been doing that way since I saw Ian Kirby do it on his benches back in the 80's. Works great and you can have the top off in about 10 seconds if you need to move the table.. work on a vise from the underside.. etc. etc.

Just fuel for your consideration.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Don C Peterson]

That's exactly what I did with my bench. Gravity holds it down, I just used some 1" oak doweling to make pins that keep the top from sliding around. Works great, and I can knock down my bench if I ever need to move it since the long stretchers are attached with tusk mortises.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Sarge:

I admire your bench design a lot. That "whaleback" looks like it adds a lot of stability, without requiring upper long stretchers that could get in the way of clamping at the edge. If you were adding a tail vise, or some kind of end vise, you'd need to keep in mind where the upper short stretchers were.

The one thing I wonder about is the bullet pins anchoring all 4 corners. I would have thought that expansion of the top sideways would have made for a problem, pushing and pulling the pins apart season to season. Are the bullet pins fit tightly on one edge and loosely on the other? Would pins only along the centerline do?

Maybe the humidity varies more in my neck of the woods than yours. Here it seems to go roughly from 0 to 100 winter to summer.

Alan

[Greg Hines, MD]

Someone had asked about bench dogs and possibly de-laminating your bench. I have never seen it happen, but I know that I have seen in many books, particularly from English workbench books, they always mention how they never recommend using a front vise in conjunction with bench dogs from the front to the back of a traditional bench. The reason is always that by applying pressure from your vise, through your workpiece, and into the bench through your dogs, you could potentially cause failure of the the glue joints between your staves.

I would have to assume that most of the examples cited refer to hot hide glue or some other type of adhesive than modern glues, which are known for being stronger than the wood around them. However, with a bench screw, you can apply a great deal of force to the longitudinal wood fibers, and could split the wood, even if it isn't the glue.

Your alternative, (as in traditional) of putting your dog holes in line with the staves rather than across them, makes the best use of the natural strength of the wood itself, without relying on the glue to hold against the force you are applying.

My own solution to this problem is to avoid dimensional lumber in the first place, and my bench top is made of 4 layers of plywood instead. For this, I can perforate it however I want to, without worrying about such problems.
Doc

[John Thompson]

You are correct in that you have to take end vises,, etc. into account when planning the base size as over-hang is required for that, Alan. And you are also correct that I intentionally use a 3" top without a wide skirt to allow clamping all the way around the top.

And you probably didn't notice that the legs are pretty wide to host M&T's and give stability as the feet were intentinally brough in from the outer edge of the top. I like toe room where my feet are under the top for various operations performed. I hate to hit my toes on a base that sits too far out.

I also put a shelf on the bottom. Those lower stretchers are rabbetted on the inside edge and the Doug fir shelf are place side to side and doweled down. That give me space below but doesn't close the bottom as I have plenty of room for storage elsewhere. Just a personal thing that you can do when you design your own as opposed to using a design "someone else" thought was best for "you". ;)

Now.. the question on bullet tops. I sue 1" dowels and 1" holes in the bottom of the top to recieve them. But.. when I rasp or file the head down to form the cone shape.. it leave about 7/8" in the dowel head. Just a hair of play which would allow a slight movement. Those dowels are oak and oak doesn't move that much.

There has been no problems in over 20 years since I adapted this method from Ian Kirby who had a teaching studio up the road from me at that time. He had about 12 work-benches if memory serves for students and his personal had the dowels also.

When I ask the same question he told me not to worry about it. I didn't and the 14 or so work-benches I built beyond that has had no reported problems or I would have heard about it as they were gifts or sold to friends that could afford expensive benches.

So... hope that info is useful to you. Frankly the books by Landis and Schwartz are very nice... but they are just basically organized photos and info of and about benches as benches have been built for 5000 years before the books were published.

There are indeed some very nice benches in them.. but I feel it it best to evaluate your work and methods.. what vises "you" will use and for what purpose.. how tall is right for you.. toe space or not.. storage or not.. clamping..etc. etc. then..... build your own to personally suit "your' individual needs as no peoples will be quite the same.

Just my thoughts on design and construction approach... mileage may vary!

Regards...

Sarge..

[John Thompson]

And a viable solution, Doc. I have made them from about everything imaginable with one thing in mind.. they are work-benches and meant to do work. I personally prefer to nail or clamp a batten down on my top in lieu of dog holes. No matter how precise you think you drilled those holes (and I drill them on a DP before glue-up).. with a wide piece and you use both sides of the dogs, it always seems to not quite touch stops exact. Grrrrrr..... :>)

I purchased some SYP two Fridays ago and built a new top for my bench over the week-end with vises being tranferred the following Monday. After the vises went on my new top... it already has nail holes from battens used as stops. My old top is being given to a local entry level tomorrow who was short of cash and time to build. It's still flat afer 6 years.. but I got tired of hearing how ratty the top was from the lovely lady that lives up-stairs and friends. SYP is cheap ($20 in this case) and I can build a new top in about two days when all is said and done.

And I've already started adding some "character" with chopping DT waste.. batten boards nailed down and chisel marks. Wood filler or bondo applied and sanded makes it look kinda like new as long as you don't look for more than a micro second. Scars provide character is my story and I'm sticking to it! :D

Regards...

Sarge..

[Kevin Lucas]

SYP is cheap ($20 in this case) was that for the whole top? if so what sizes did you get and resize?

[Jerome Hanby]

Hope this isn't sacrilege since it involves a power tool, but what about using on of those finger joint router bits to join the short pieces into longer ones. I've seen that done on Ikea counter tops and on several "off the shelf" workbenches. Seems you could make sure those joints were staggered (kind of like you stagger the joints when you install wood flooring) and that would make those finger joints stronger by giving them solid support on either side.

[John Thompson]

SYP is cheap ($20 in this case) was that for the whole top? if so what sizes did you get and resize?

The whole top SYP was $19 and some odd cents. But.. take a look at the picture of the top. See the 3 center strips that look lighter because they are lighter.. :) They were 3 premium grade ultra straight studs left over from a utilitarian project as I will explain.

I purchased qty. 4 of 2 x 8 x 12 SYP which would have been enough without those 3 studs. I always make my tops 3" thick. I purposely look to find a 2 x 8 that has a small pith (heart of tree) almost dead center. Now all wisdom says that will warp with that pith there.. right?

But... I take my pin style Timber-Check moisture meter when I go looking. I am looking for under 13% on the shelf which is straight when I find it. If it is straight then.. more likely it will stay straight. That's what I am looking for and won't compromise. Usually not a problem here in Atlanta as SYP is the builders choice for flooring joist.

When it gets to my shop.. I cross-cut to lenght. Then I rip about 1/4" from both side to get rid of the round-over. Then.. I rip off that square edge to 3 1/8" toward pith or heart. Do the same with the other side. I now have two pieces 3 1/8" that goes to the jointer to take 1/16" off each side and have two square edges.

What happens with this process is it leaves the pith in the center as waste and because of the way you "sliced and diced" the stock.. you end up with ///.. and ))) which is quarter-sawn and slighty more slanted angles as rift sawn. I just throw away the pith or heart.

BTW... the spruce studs were used because when I ripped one of the 2 x 8 x 12's.. it had a lot of tension wood that released and the stock bowed. Un-acceptable! In lieu of going to get more.. I used the studs on hand to save the trip.. I'm either not proud or simply cheap as my wife suggest. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

Any questions... feel free to ask.

Sarge..

[Andy Pratt]

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you guys on this. I ended up deciding to go a slightly different route and skip the tail vise all together, which will eliminate the issue of delamination. I've got the 36" long pieces glued up into (8) roughly 8"X36"X2+3/4" blocks, which I'll be glueing together to make the top this weekend. To address sagging, I'll be making a full apron underneath with 4X4 doug fir. It's not ideal, but it will work.

I'm at the point where I'm building the project around the materials, which isn't where I had hoped to be. I'll get a useable bench with a great top for a small amount of money (About $150 all told), but it's not going to be as perfect as I had hoped. That will give me an excuse to make another one in a few years when I've hopefully figured out exactly what I want. In the meantime, this beats the crap out of 3/4" OSB on a 2X4 frame.

I appreciate all of the detailed advice. Had I not brought this up to you guys, I probably would have ended up with a very saggy top, and possibly broke it apart at some point with the vise.

Thanks,
Andy

[Russ Hauser]

I have a double row of dog holes across my bench, in line with the dogs in the Emmert vise. I have never had the top delaminate in this area. However this is not true at the other end of the bench. The front maple board started to delaminate years ago for some reason, and I stabilized it with a couple of 5/16" lag bolts. Go figure.

[Andy Pratt]

Posted this earlier today as a reply to initial conversation so it got buried within the thread where it wasn't visible in normal view:

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you guys on this. I ended up deciding to go a slightly different route and skip the tail vise all together, which will eliminate the issue of delamination. I've got the 36" long pieces glued up into (8) roughly 8"X36"X2+3/4" blocks, which I'll be glueing together to make the top this weekend. To address sagging, I'll be making a full apron underneath with 4X4 doug fir. It's not ideal, but it will work.

I'm at the point where I'm building the project around the materials, which isn't where I had hoped to be. I'll get a useable bench with a great top for a small amount of money (About $150 all told), but it's not going to be as perfect as I had hoped. That will give me an excuse to make another one in a few years when I've hopefully figured out exactly what I want. In the meantime, this beats the crap out of 3/4" OSB on a 2X4 frame.

I appreciate all of the detailed advice. Had I not brought this up to you guys, I probably would have ended up with a very saggy top, and possibly broke it apart at some point with the vise.

Thanks,
Andy