Coffee table project, Finish applied need help (shellac)

[Jason Scott]

Hey guys,

As some of you may recall I've been working on a coffee table for a long time now, well this week I finally got it done and applied the finish today, it is Shellac to match the last table I did.

I was very careful except for forgetting to cut the shellac from a 3 to a 1 lb cut :rolleyes: So after applying an initial 3 lb cut to the top I went to a 1 lb or less cut of shellac for the subsequent coats. I have a total of about 5 or 6 coats on the top, the rest only has 1 as I have been trying to get a perfect finish on the top all day. My problem is no matter what I use, a brush or a pad it dries "streaky" with ridges here and there or brush marks, etc. I never remember having this problem on the other table so I don't know what is going on.

In the pictures the top looks fantastic, from any angle except right under a florecent light it looks absolutely perfect, high gloss, just gorgeous. But if I look over top of it and reflect a flourecent light on it, it looks streaky, like shiny>dull>shiny>dull, etc. I have done this 6 times now, and nothing seems to help, whether brush or pad or both, it just dries streaky. The shellac is B.E. 3 lb. premixed shellac with wax, same can that I used on the other table, it is maybe 6 mos. old and they say you can use it up to 3 years, so what is the deal???

I figure if I just rub it out it will be ok, but I'm no expert so I don't know what to do, all I know is I can't leave it like this and redoing it over and over has not helped the streaky-ness when it dries. I sand between coats with 320 grit, I am doing nothing new from the last time I had such great results, prep work is good, nothing contaminating anything so I am stumped. Should I just rub it out and see what happens? How long before I can rub out shellac? I included one photo with no flash trying to show you the "streaky-ness" I am talking about. I put the stuff on smooth and even, yet I have shiny and dull spots, just doesn't make sense to me. Anyway please let me know, I am applying the other coats to the rest of the piece tomorrow, but I am flat done screwing with the top except to try and rub it out.

I can tell you when I sand it between coats the table, while dull, looks nice and uniform, that is why I am thinking the rubbing out may work. Let me know guys, oh and what do you think of it so far?

Thanks,

Jason

[Cary Swoveland]

Jason,

Firstly, you probably should have posted in the finishing forum. Perhaps one of the moderators may move it over.

I would be surprised if somehow your shellac went bad over just six months. Six months is usually given as the shelf life of unwaxed shellac flakes once dissolved in alcohol, but you're using shellac with wax (which lasts longer) and no doubt the manufacturer has mixed in additives to give it the claimed three-year shelf life. As long as the first coat dries hard after an hour or so, I'd think it's OK. If you're concerned about that you could of course buy more shellac and compare old with new on an unfinished piece of wood.

I'm not a finishing expert by any means, but I'm guessing that your problem stems from that initial 3 lb. coat you applied--too thick.

The first thing you might try is sanding with 400 grit after it has dried for at least 24 hours. See if that reduces the problem. If not, I'd start removing the shellac with alcohol and rags. Soak the rags and turn them frequently. Wear nitrile gloves. You can remove all the shellac that way--if necessary--or you may find improvement after removing just some of it.

On flat surfaces, I've had good success either spraying or using a pad. I've had trouble brushing, leaving some areas too thick, but that might just be bad technique. Of course you need a quality brush of the right type. When using a pad, I've followed Jeff Jewitt's advice of treating it as an airplane doing touch-and-go's: landing on the surface and then taking off when it reaches an edge.

Please keep us posted on what you try and how it works out.

Cary

[Jason Scott]

Cary,

Thanks for the reply, sorry about posting in the wrong forum, that didn't even cross my mind. Ok so here is what I have done so far:

After the final 6th coat dried, 1 hour, I went down and started sanding. I started with 800 and some mineral oil for lubrication. Then I moved to 1000/oil, then finally 1500/oil. Wiped the whole thing off with clean paper towels to get any oil off. Then I waxed it with Jonson's paste wax. Not sure why I did any of this other than I was trying to get a uniform sheen. The result, it is much more uniform than before, and yes I think the initial cut was the problem because the aprons/legs/stiles only have a 1 lb. cut, 1 coat and they look the way they should, you live and learn I guess.

I guess I have to go all the way with this now and rub it out completely right? It really has a nice gloss to it, it just isn't perfect, it is still has a dulled/gloss feel currently. I am going to go ahead and apply serveral coats to the rest of it tommorow, I think I read that you have to wait a week to rub out a shellac finish, or by sanding through the 3 different grits I did have I already started the "rub out". I guess I figured the rubbing compound was what you had to wait for the finish to cure before doing, or am I wrong? Thanks for any advice.

[Dewey Torres]

Nice table. Love the dovetails and the marquetry design. Looks great.
Dewey

[Jim Becker]

Jason, one thing about shellac...you can't brush (or pad) it like you do varnish. No "working" the finish. Get it on, one or two quick swipes to spread any marks and move on. Do not revisit any area...it will get lumpy. Even though I've gotten the "feel" for applying shellac, I still tend to prefer to spray it for larger surfaces. Oh, and you need to be using a really good brush...no cheapies for best results.

[Jason Scott]

Yeah, I am still new to shellac, I didn't use a cheap brush so that wasn't it, I am not sure what is going on but I am here now and I have to "fix" it as best as I can. Do you think rubbing it with a rubbing compound will bring it all uniform?

[Luis Oliveira]

Jason,
First, very nice coffee table.
I am no expert on finishing, and I am new to woodworking. I have also tried many times using brushes and pads and I was having the same results you are having, I just can not get the technique down.
What I decide to do is to buy a spryer and I have to say the results were night and day. Again, I don't even know if I am sprying the proper way but I liked the results.
Everyone one is talking about the earlex hvlp. I bought this one for 1/3 of the price (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10469&filter=hvlp).
Since I don't have any other spryers I can not compare, but if you wanted to try it out this sprayer is cheap enough....

[Jim Becker]

You may want to level the finish on the top via careful hand sanding with a block and then pad on a final application to shine 'er up. Do not cut through the finish to the wood, however--hence my use of the word "careful". Unlike varnish, that padded final coat will meld with the previous shellac and you should be good to go with minimal additional work.

[Todd Bin]

Jason, I'm glad to see you finished (pun intended) the table. It turned out great. I like the dovetails. Nice touch. I bet your wife if happy to have a nice coffee table.

Great Job.

Todd

[Jason Scott]

Todd thanks, almost finished lol,

Ok so here is the update:

I couldn't stand looking at the blotchy-ness I just couldn't so I sanded everything back down to bare wood on the top. What do I do now? Try again, different finish? I don't think I'll be using shellac down the road it just seems too difficult to get "perfect". I'm stumped now, I have 1 coat of shellac on everything else on the table and now a bare wood top again, I want it all to match and I don't want to sand down the rest of the table. Can I ask this:

Is the streaky/blotchy just the way the walnut grain takes the shellac, or is it skill, or rather lack there of. Why did my first table turn out so nice and this one has the blotchy look. I'd like to shellac this again, but I don't want to have to go through sanding it all back down again if it turns out bad. I read where you can use just a bit of alcohol to fix most things, but that did not seem to work with me. If I used some alcohol on a pad all I did was dull where I put it on, I could not "move" the shellac from area to area like I read about. Help!

Jason

[Cary Swoveland]

Jason,

You just fell off your bike. That's no reason to sell it. Shellac is a great finish.

I'd redo it, using a pad. Some sand ever so lightly between coats (400-600 grit), others don't bother. After 24 hours sand lightly with 400-600, then with 0000 steel wool. Wax, or wait a week and rub it out. Before you start, make sure the top is good and flat (as well as smooth); any ripples will cause light to be reflected differently.

You might practice a bit first with scraps, preferably walnut. If you do, you might try applying a very light coat of boiled linseed on part of the bare wood, then go over it with a grey pad before applying your first coat of shellac. (No need to let the BLO dry first.) Just use a rag. The BLO brings out the grain--many like the effect.

Cary

[Jim Becker]

What Cary said. But even if you want to switch to a wiping varnish or something else, get at least one coat of shellac on the top so that it has the same coloration and "pop" that the rest of the piece has.

[Jason Scott]

Thanks guys,

Well I worked on it all day, took it back down to bare wood and started over, have 5 more coats on waiting an hour between coats, light sanding, then another, I have the same situation, it is "blotchy" that is the only way I can describe it...Some areas or streaks shinyer then others, etc. I hate the way it looks up close so I am at a loss as to what to do now, i've wasted so much damn time on this thing I'm ready to throw it in the trash, and what is worse is that the shellac I use has wax in it so I have heard you can't put anything as a top coat over it, is this true? Do I have to sand it all down again and start over yet again? I really was hoping that it was the 3lb cut I did in the beginning, but no dice, it looks just as bad to me now as it did before using 1lb or less cuts...I wiped the first few coats, then did it with a brush, still no difference, I think it is terrible, it won't come across in any pictures so there is no need to show any...

It is like it will not "build up" coats, I know shellac melts, but it still gets thicker which I thought would eventually get over the surface causing the streaking effect to go away but it doesn't seem to...I was too frustrated to continue today, I don't know what to do. I want to switch to "Arm-R-Seal" top coat, but I am worried about the wax in the mixture I used, do you think I would be ok just to go ahead and sand it and then use the arm-R-seal? Thanks for any help.

[Cary Swoveland]

What a bummer, Jason. If you do apply something else on top of what you have, first apply one or two coats of dewaxed shellac. That will allow any other finish to stick fine, but I don't know what it will look like. You could use Zissner Bull's Eye pre-mixed dewaxed shellac, or dewaxed shellac flakes disolved in alcohol. One can easily remove the wax from flakes dissolved in alcohol, but I don't know if you can do that with the pre-mixed product you're using.

I hope some finishing expert will be able to identify the reason for the streaking.

Cary

[Jason Scott]

Cary,

Thanks man, have an update. I went back down in the shop and looked it over, I might be being too hard on it/me. There definately is some streaking but what I noticed is that it seems to follow the grain lines. The lines of grain in some areas are shinyer than others causing this effect I was talking about. Not sure what to do about it b/c I have the same amount of shellac on the whole table and about 5 coats now for the 2nd time, so more shellac is not the answer :mad:

Anyway, I went ahead and sanded the table lightly with 1500 grit and oil just to try and get it a little more uniform which it did. I am attaching a photo that I think shows a lot, I took it without the flash to show you the "reflective" qualities by the glare of the tv/light. I go back and forth now, sometimes it looks really nice and other times the "reflection" like in the pic below just seems cloudy/streaky to me. My question is am I just being too much of a perfectionist or is something wrong with the finish? Secondly do you think if I let it cure a week or so and then do a full rub out procedure it would make a huge difference? I put the small table side by side with it and to my suprise my coffee table is more "reflective". What I mean is that when you reflect say the tv in the small table you can see a blobish glow that a satin finish gives off, but with the coffee table you see the results below, you can see the reflection much more clearly, it just seems cloudyier than it should to me, but I am no expert, lol clearly. Any help/advice from this point would really be appreciated, thanks guys.

**EDIT** I just found a pic in my camera I took last night of a lamp reflecting in the table which really shows this "streakiness/cloudiness" well. The table now is much better off then the picture I am showing from last night, but still has similar properties to what you see with that lamp reflection picture below. Just in case it helps anyone with an answer for me, thanks.

Jason

[Jim Becker]

Waxy shellac can be top coated with almost any oil based varnish that doe NOT contain polyurethane. If you seal it with a coat of dewaxed shellac, you can also use a water borne or poly product if you choose. That said, it's curious to me that you're getting the very uneven sheen effect you seem to be getting...I'm hoping one of our resident experts chimes in with some of their thoughts...

[Steven Wilson]

Jason, why are you sanding between coats? Shellac will melt into itself so don't sand unless you have runs or drips (then use a card scraper without a hook turned on it). So, no sanding between coats. Apply 5 or 6 coats and let it dry, then lightly block sand with 320 grit and apply (wipe) a single finish coat. When you use 1.5lb cut shellac you get very little build and by sanding back after each coat you're getting rid of all of your finish (hence the streaks). You need to get some build. I like to apply 3-4 coats of 3lb cut shellac with a good brush (Omega Lily Oval) then I level sand. Final coats are then a 1lb-2lb cut of shellac padded on - just like landing an airplane.

[Jason Scott]

Really? Ok, I guess the reason I sanded between coats is beacause it felt kinda rough to the touch, so I sanded and then it was baby smooth. You really think if I put on a few coats without sanding it will build and not streak? If so I'm game, I'll throw a few coats on this afternoon and not sand at all until the final one.

[Jim Becker]

Ouch...I didn't catch that earlier, Jason. Thanks to Steven for noticing! Sanding between coats could very well explain the varied sheen. You may have been cutting too close to the wood. I lightly swipe with 320 after the first coat to knock of any nibs but don't sand again until just before the final coat unless there is a lot of filling going on.

[Jason Scott]

ok, I'll do it, I'll add a couple more and see what happens, how many coats will it take to see if my problem will be fixed this way?

[Jason Scott]

Well, I got two more coats on today and no sanding, I don't see a big difference. I think the wood is just soaking it up at different rates, at least that is the appearance that I have been calling streaky. Overall I think it is going to be ok, but I am going to give it enough time to cure and then rub it out and see what happens. I'll post some pictures when I get her right.

[Jason Scott]

Ok, so have 3 more coats on without sanding, I took an upclose shot reflecting outside and here is what I have got, what is going on? Will rubbing out take care of most of this, it almost appears plastic-like from this angle, is it just the wood grain? From other angles it appears really pretty, it is glossy just "grainy".

[Jim Becker]

That first picture really bothers me...the finish shouldn't be stacking up like that. It should be a smooth surface. It almost looks like it was brushed out too much including after it started to dry. What kind of shellac are you using? Pre-mixed? From flakes? How old?

[Peter Quadarella]

Nice table btw :) I like the inlay too. (sorry no input, I'm just reading and learning)

[Jason Scott]

Ok, so that first picture is not normal then sometimes with certain grains in the wood, I thought so :( Jim, it is Zinsser 3lb cut pre-mixed, only about 6 mos. old, they say you can use it up to 3 years, it dries fine so I don't know what the problem is...I reduced it to 1lb cut with SLX, I am going to sand it and rub it out and see how it goes.

The aprons/legs/stretchers do not have this problem at all, they turned out fine, only place it is doing this is on the top so I'm stumped...Why would only the top be doing this? If rubbing out doesn't go well, I'll either live and learn or take it back down to bare wood or put something over the shellac top coat...

Could I use "tung oil finish" by minwax over this waxed shellac???? If so I'll probably do that and see if it smooths it out at all...

[Khalid Khattak]

I am sorry to say "It is looking good":)

[Jason Scott]

Well,

I just got off the phone with a shellac expert in OH. Guy has been doing it forever and owns a professional cabinet shop, I found him on the internet. Really cool guy who took some time to talk to me about it. He said it was NOT the number of coats, or whether I sanded or not between them. He said it appears to him that the shellac has gone bad creating the problem. His advice was to sand or scape it back down, then throw the Zinsser in the trash and mix my own from flakes and pad on another light coat. I asked why it came out ok on the aprons/legs/stretchers and he said he wasn't sure, maybe because there was less to brush and it just came out better.

He said rubbing out was an option also but he said it would be a lot of work. Not sure what to do now, I think I am going to just rub it out and see what it looks like so I need a detailed procedure on the best way to go about it. If it doesn't come out perfect, I'm taking it back down and starting again :mad:

He also said when shellac dries it is "cured" and waiting a week does nothing to "harden" the finish, which I found interesting b/c I have seen so many articles to the contrary, I'm not experienced enough to know, but this guys seems really good.

On a side note, my shellac from Zinsser is only 6 mos. old and they say it can be used up to 3 years from the manufacturer's date, does this warrant a phone call to them or anything? Don't think I'll be using their shellac again based on this guy saying that from the looks of the photo the shellac has turned bad, I'm interested in your opinion's on this. Thanks,

Jason

[Jim Becker]

Is the guy's name Steve?

Bad shellac was lurking in the back of my mind which is why I asked what you used. Given it's relatively inexpensive, the advise to mix your own is a good one. As to complaining to Zinsser, there is no harm in that. I've not had any issues with their products, but only use the SealCoat product. Anything else in the shellac realm, I mix from flakes.

[Jason Scott]

Is the guy's name Steve?

Bad shellac was lurking in the back of my mind which is why I asked what you used. Given it's relatively inexpensive, the advise to mix your own is a good one. As to complaining to Zinsser, there is no harm in that. I've not had any issues with their products, but only use the SealCoat product. Anything else in the shellac realm, I mix from flakes.

If his last name starts with an "M" then I believe it is the same guy, very nice guy.

[Jim Becker]

Yea, Mr. Mickley is the moderator of the finishing forum at WOOD Online and just opened up a really great lumber and woodworking tool operation. Very nice guy. And he knows shellac very well...

[Ted Jay]

I'm just curious.

Back in the day of painting cars with Lacquer, if it was a humid day it would cloud up, and it would take longer to clear up.

Does shellac have any issues drying and cloud up if the humidity level is high? :confused:

Ted

[Jason Scott]

Yea, Mr. Mickley is the moderator of the finishing forum at WOOD Online and just opened up a really great lumber and woodworking tool operation. Very nice guy. And he knows shellac very well...

That's him, super nice guy

[Steven Wilson]

I'm just curious.

Back in the day of painting cars with Lacquer, if it was a humid day it would cloud up, and it would take longer to clear up.

Does shellac have any issues drying and cloud up if the humidity level is high? :confused:

Ted It can, not usually as bad though as lacquer. A light wipe with a cloth that has a little bit of alcohol in it usually takes care of any clouding up.