Chisel Naming Question

[Mike Henderson]

I was with some woodworking friends today and we got to talking about the names for different chisels. A couple of the people were "old tools" people.

Anyway, we were discussing the names of chisels which are obviously "bench chisels" but are shaped differently. Specifically, we were discussing the names for chisels with bevel sides and square sides, as shown in the pictures below.

The general agreement was that the chisel on the left (in the first picture) is called a bevel edge chisel, while the other is called a firmer, although both would fall into the category of "bench chisels".

What's the opinion of the people here? How do you distinguish between these two types of chisels by name?

Mike

[David DeCristoforo]

"How do you distinguish between these two types of chisels by name?"

Well I'd name the first one Bev. Have to think about the other one tho....

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mike

I would consider both to be bench chisels. The one is bevel edged style, and the other is firmer style. The bevel edged style chisel is too thick to be a parer, and the firmer style is too thin to be a firmer proper. I would say that this reflect cost - the non-bevelled style is cheaper to manufacture.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Henderson]

Hi Mike

I would consider both to be bench chisels. The one is bevel edged style, and the other is firmer style. The bevel edged style chisel is too thick to be a parer, and the firmer style is too thin to be a firmer proper. I would say that this reflect cost - the non-bevelled style is cheaper to manufacture.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Derek - you say that the square side chisel is firmer style but too thin to be a firmer proper. What is a "firmer proper"? And what is the intended use of a firmer? We (the group I was talking with) agree with you that both of the chisels I show in the picture are classified as "bench chisels".

For mortises, it seems like you'd select one of the mortise type chisels (pigsticker, sash, or the one in the attached picture which I don't have a name for). And for regular bench work, you'd select a bench chisel.

Mike

[Pam Niedermayer]

Well I'd name the first one Bev. Have to think about the other one tho....

I think Matthew for the firmer style chisel would be good. :)

Pam

[Rick Dohm]

Great question!! I'm confused too, because I thought the difference between them was: firmers are square sided and bevels are, of course, bevels. But in many catalogs, chisels with bevel sides are also called firmers. I hope someone has the definitive answer for what makes a "firmer" a "firmer" and what it's intended use is.

Rick

[Ray Sheley]

Mr. Smalser did a quick chisel summation for starters, though I seem to remember that there was more info than what I just found a link to. This should help.
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=smalser&file=articles_472.shtml

[Ken Werner]

I have a very nice old Barton chisel, which has straight sides, like the one on the right in the photo. It is IMO, a paring chisel - delicate, flexible and long, but with straight sides. To me, a firmer is thicker, and capable of taking hits with a mallet.

Ken

[Mike Henderson]

I found this definition of "Firmer chisel" on the web (http://www.answers.com/topic/firmer-chisel?cat=technology)

n.
A chisel or gouge with a thin blade, used to shape and finish wood by hand.
[French fermoir, from Old French, alteration (influenced by fermer, to make firm) of formoir, from former, to form, from Latin fōrmāre, from fōrma, form.]

So maybe that chisel could be called a "firmer". Of course, a bevel side chisel could also be called a "firmer" under that definition.

No one has expressed any strong opinions so, for lack of an alternate definition, I'll call square sided flat chisels "firmers" just to distinguish them from bevel edge chisels.

Mike

[Here's another one from Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/firmer+chisel)

firmer chisel

One entry found.

firmer chisel

Main Entry: fir·mer chisel http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?firmer01.wav=firmer chisel')) Pronunciation: \ˈfər-mər-\ Function: noun Etymology: French fermoir chisel, alteration of Middle French formoir, from former to form, from Old French forme form Date: 1823 : a woodworking chisel with a thin flat blade ]

[Johnny Kleso]

The Name Firmer has nothing to do with eveled or Un-Beveled..

I looking at the J. Graham Catalog for 1920 posted toolememera.com

They list Weitherby Firmers for 6 1/2 to 4 1/2" long beveled and un-beveled

Pocket Chisels 3 1/2" long
Beveled and Un-beveled

Butt Chisels 2 1/2" long
Beveled and un-beveled

Framing Chisels 8" long
Beveled and un-beveled

Seems firmer is what we now call bench.....

[Mike Henderson]

The Name Firmer has nothing to do with eveled or Un-Beveled..

I looking at the J. Graham Catalog for 1920 posted toolememera.com

They list Weitherby Firmers for 6 1/2 to 4 1/2" long beveled and un-beveled

Pocket Chisels 3 1/2" long
Beveled and Un-beveled

Butt Chisels 2 1/2" long
Beveled and un-beveled

Framing Chisels 8" long
Beveled and un-beveled

Seems firmer is what we now call bench.....
I think you're historically correct, Johnny. But since we need some way to distinguish between bevel side and square side, perhaps we can begin to use the term "firmer" to mean "square side" - just so we have a name for each kind of chisel.

Mike

[Roger Bell]

I am inclined to disagree with both Mr K and with Mr S concerning the definition of "firmer".

My opinion is based on a fifteen minute perusal of the L&J White-1910, Buck Bros-1890, Pexto-1927, Jennings-1913 and Jas Swan-1920 catalogues, each of whom use the term "firmer" to describe a number of their chisel or gouge products. Stanley eschews the designation of "firmer" altogether, as far as I can tell from a number of their catalogs that I have from various time periods. The five manufacturers I cite appear to agree in some areas and disagree in others and provide good evidence for my conclusion. Granted, additional research may produce evidence pointing to a different conclusion. I have not included any Euro makers. So let no one get his knickers in a twist based on my conclusion.

Both bevel edged and "straight side" chisels are uniformly described as "firmer" in each of the catalogues. Both socket and tanged chisel as well as S and T gouge products are also described as "firmer"......in all cases. So neither bevel nor straight-side appears to be a relevant factor. That much appears to be conclusive.

There is some variation on whether or not "pocket", or "butt" chisels are also described as firmer. They generally are (Swan, Pexto, Jennings) but not always (White). There is a little bit of inconsistency here. White's describe some of their "paring" (long and thin by typical definition) chisels (again, in tang and socket) as firmers, as does Buck. That would tend to contradict Mr S's assertion that a firmer, by his definition, is "thicker" in section and of heavier steel. I believe he means "heavier" and "thicker" than bevel edged or "bench" chisels. Paring chisels are not thick, although we all know that thick chisels can be sharpened to pare.

The "ship carpenters", "millwrights", "coachmakers" or "framing" chisels are sometimes described as firmers, Buck does for their entire line of each of these obvious heavyweights and White's does as well for their millwrights and coachmakers, but not for their framing models. Jennings does not. Swan does not for their heavyweights, except sometimes. Pexto does for a couple.

The manufacturers show general agreement on the terms of: paring, butt, pocket, bevel edged, mortise, sash mortise, millwright, and framing. We all have a pretty good picture of what each of these terms represents.

One might conclude, as both Mr K does, that "firmer" is an old tyme synonym for what we call today's "bench" chisel. In other words, a generic rather than specific term. This view may be correct. But, remember that Buck calls their heavy framers and millwrights "firmers". I would not characterize any of the heavyweights as a "bench" chisel.

Plenty of inconsistency. Nothing unusual about inconsistency in marketing terms....then or now.

Given the amount of apparent inconsistency among these manufacturers, it does not appear to me that the evidence points to a definite conclusion one way or another.

Personally, I do not use the term "firmer" as a stand-alone, one-word description of any chisel. It has always been used as an adjunct term to describe a "butt", "bevel edged", "socket", etc. "Square side" or, if you insist, "square side firmer" seems descriptively accurate enough, but only as a supplement to "butt", "socket" "tanged" or the like.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek - you say that the square side chisel is firmer style but too thin to be a firmer proper. What is a "firmer proper"? And what is the intended use of a firmer? We (the group I was talking with) agree with you that both of the chisels I show in the picture are classified as "bench chisels".

For mortises, it seems like you'd select one of the mortise type chisels (pigsticker, sash, or the one in the attached picture which I don't have a name for). And for regular bench work, you'd select a bench chisel.

Mike

Mike

Re-reading what I wrote, I'd keep it all the same but for the words "firmer proper". I would now write ...

I would consider both to be bench chisels. The one is bevel edged style, and the other is firmer style. The bevel edged style chisel is too thick to be a parer, and the firmer style is too thin to be a mortice chisel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Personally, I do not use the term "firmer" as a stand-alone, one-word description of any chisel. It has always been used as an adjunct term to describe a "butt", "bevel edged", "socket", etc. "Square side" or, if you insist, "square side firmer" seems descriptively accurate enough, but only as a supplement to "butt", "socket" "tanged" or the like.

Yes, I fell into this conundrum when I was trying to make an inventory of my chisels one time.

The term "firmer" almost has no meaning. One bit of information from an article or reading somewhere mentioned that it might have meant the chisel was a little heavier and thus could be hit a bit firmer with the mallet.

jim

[James Mittlefehldt]

In their 1910 catalogue Ohio Tool describes any bench chisel as a firmer chisel. So they have bevel edge firmer chisels and butt firmer chisels, plus plain firmer chisels with straight sides. Sandusky tool in their 1925 catalogue did not sell chisels but only chisel handles, but they refer to them as only firmer handles, the only differentiation being socket or tang.

The excellent book The Tool Chest Of Benjamin Seaton says that bevel edge chisels did not appear on the Sheffield lists until 1870, and all the bench chisels in Seatons 1796 inventory are called firmer chisels. There are four heavier chisels and they are refered to as socket chisels. There was also a set of mortice chisels, (only two of which showed any amount of use) but they were labeled as such.

I think I tend towards Roger's opinion that firmer chisel is a bench chisel, and bevel edge is merely a specific kind of firmer as espoused by Ohio Tool. The Seaton book says that when introduced bevel edge chisels were initially used for finer work and the straight sided firmers were for more general stuff.

[Johnny Kleso]

Mike,
In the past I always thought a Firmer as a non-beveled chisel but I am open to learn what they really should be called ..

I know Bob S. loves Millwright chisels and we have not even got into where they fit in the scheme yet :)

[Matthew Platt]

After a little edification from Mr Moskowitz at Tools for Working Wood a few months ago on this very subject I can reveal the following:

A chisel with the sides perpendicular to the back is referred to as 'registered', hence you can have a registered firmer chisel, a registered mortice chisel etc.

A firmer is a heavyweight chisel designed to withstand hard blows from a hammer or mallet, it can be bevelled or registered.

True cabinetmakers bevel edged chisels have thin blades and very little of the vertical part left on the sides. A bevel edged firmer chisel has a thicker blade with more meat left on in order to give it greater strength.

Hope this helps,

Cheers

Matthew

[Bob Smalser]

"Firmer" means a forming (shaping) chisel. That makes it almost anything you want it to be. And the regional differences alone are numerous.

I take my terms from the small-town boatbuilders I worked for in the 1950's. They were the last generation of craftsmen that made their livings with hand tools almost exclusively. That doesn't mean their contemporaries elsewhere didn't call them something else with equal authority.