Anyone made a coffered ceiling?

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
I'm thinking (I know - dangerous and expensive :D) of putting up a coffered ceiling.
Any help/suggestions or pictures especially would be appreciated.

[Stephen Edwards]

Google "coffered ceilings". Lots of information out there.

Best Wishes,

[David DeCristoforo]

Made lots. Check out the one on my web site (click on "current work" and look at the "lib" images). I would be happy to advise if this is the kind of thing you are thinking about. One thing I can tell you that is applicable in almost every situation is that, no matter what your "grid" layout is, you will "miss" 90% of the ceiling joists. (Murphy's Law of Coffered Ceilings). So , to begin with, the "best" thing you can do is to skin the entire ceiling with 5/8" plywood glued to the sheetrock (if the ceiling is already sheetrocked) and screwed to the joists. If the ceiling is not sheetrocked, use 3/4" ply. The ply can be "cheapo" CDX or something. You just need to be able to lay out your grid to fit the room without having to worry about where the joists are.

[John Zilinskas]

Made lots. Check out the one on my web site (click on "current work" and look at the "lib" images). I would be happy to advise if this is the kind of thing you are thinking about. One thing I can tell you that is applicable in almost every situation is that, no matter what your "grid" layout is, you will "miss" 90% of the ceiling joists. (Murphy's Law of Coffered Ceilings). So , to begin with, the "best" thing you can do is to skin the entire ceiling with 5/8" plywood glued to the sheetrock (if the ceiling is already sheetrocked) and screwed to the joists. If the ceiling is not sheetrocked, use 3/4" ply. The ply can be "cheapo" CDX or something. You just need to be able to lay out your grid to fit the room without having to worry about where the joists are.

Wow. Nice work David. Do you do this by yourself or do you have a crew ? Seems like some big projects for one person.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Do you do this by yourself or do you have a crew ? Seems like some big projects for one person."

My son and I built the entire room in the shop, then took it apart and delivered it to the house where it was reassembled in place. It was part of a 3 year long project.

[richard poitras]

Dave , the ceiling looks very good along with the other projects, I was just wondering what kind of wood you used on the ceilings..... Thanks Richard

[David DeCristoforo]

"...was just wondering what kind of wood you used..."

Walnut

[Dave Bonde]

Here is one I am about 90% done with. It is made of MDF and painted white.

[Greg Funk]

Made lots. Check out the one on my web site (click on "current work" and look at the "lib" images).

David,

That is beautiful work!

I am going to be building a coffered ceiling as well and I have a couple of questions:

1. For the crown molding inside the coffers, did you build and install individual square sections or did you install the crown as individual pieces on site.

2. Did you finish on site or in the shop? I have a spayer and would prefer to spray in my shop rather than finishing with a brush in my den.

Any help or advice would be much appreciated.

thanks,

Greg

[Dave Bonde]

More pictures - can't get the pixs to upload will try later.

[fRED mCnEILL]

Is it practical to do a coffered ceiling with 8 ft high ceilings?

Thanks

Fred Mc.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...I have a couple of questions..."

I would be happy to offer any assistance I can. But I'm outta here for tonight so can I get back to you tomorrow or Monday? There is a really good system for installing the crowns but it will take some time and a few sketches to describe. BTW, the project was not pre-finished.

[Greg Funk]

"...I have a couple of questions..."

I would be happy to offer any assistance I can. But I'm outta here for tonight so can I get back to you tomorrow or Monday? There is a really good system for installing the crowns but it will take some time and a few sketches to describe. BTW, the project was not pre-finished.
No problem. As my wife would confirm my pace is somewhat glacial but I would be interested in hearing about your system.

[Dave Bonde]

more pixxs

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
Dave & David - thanks!



bookmarkcoffer

[Per Swenson]

This may help,


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=42264&highlight=coffered

Per

[Don Bullock]

This place continues to be amazing. Today while I was driving home with my wife I mentioned the possibility of putting in a coffered ceiling in the dining room of our new home. Right after I got home after being gone all weekend, I find this thread here on Sawmill Creek. You people here are fantastic.:D Thanks again for all the help.

[Per Swenson]

Don,

Lookee here also,

http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/perfecting-coffered-ceilings.aspx

Per

[jason lambert]

With 8' I wouldn't. the celing will take about 6" or so I assume that would leave you with a 7'6" celing. Everyone is use to seeing 8' celings anything lower, well just makes the room looked cramped. I just gutted and raised the celing in a room that that had a 7'7" celing because it looked small especally above the doorways. Also a celing that low will have challanging lighting issues.

[Don Bullock]

Don,

Lookee here also,

http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/perfecting-coffered-ceilings.aspx

Per

Per,

Thanks for the article link. That's just the technique that I need. Now, all I need to do is wait until my garage and shop are built and ready to use at our new home.



With 8' I wouldn't. the celing will take about 6" or so I assume that would leave you with a 7'6" ceiling...

Jason, the room I'm hoping to place a coffered ceiling is is 9' 5" and I'm planning on limiting the depth of the coffers to <5" so my ceiling height will still be 9'.

[Anthony Fields]

Superb work David. Wow!

[jason lambert]

9'5" should be ok. Sorry must of mis understood.

[David DeCristoforo]

General Considerations:

As already mentioned, skin the entire ceiling with plywood. If your local fire code allows it, just use 3/4” CDX. If your local code absolutely requires sheetrock, you can use 5/8” ply under the drywall. This will completely free you to lay out your grid as you wish without having to worry about solid attachment. The reason I like to leave the rock off is that I like to glue and screw the cleats to the ceiling and the bond in much better if you glue directly to plywood. “Streakers” and PL-400 are your friends. The combined weight of these ceilings can add up quick and the cleats are carrying most of the weight.

Do not make any commitments as to lighting placement until your grid pattern is finalized. Whether you use pendants, recessed cans, whatever, it always looks “wrong” to have the lighting off center in a cell.

Do your layouts fill sized, in the room on the floor. It’s a lot easier to play with the layout on the floor.

A grid with smaller cells will have a heavier “feel” than one with larger cells. Also, a darker ceiling will feel “heavier” than a lighter colored one.

An average person should not be able to touch the bottoms of the beams with their feet flat on the floor. If the beams are any lower than this, the “headroom” will feel constricted.

I find that it looks best to have a “half beam” at the walls. If there is casework on any of the walls, the half beam should begin at the face of the casework.

If the room is not square or rectangular in shape, you may end up with some “odd” shaped or sized cells.

Whenever possible, make full sized mock-ups of your beams and temporarily attach them to the ceiling. I like to make at least one full “intersection” plus a half beam. If you are using wood ceiling panels in the cells, add an eighth of an inch of extra depth to the drops. It’s almost impossible to get a ceiling perfectly flat and the extra depth will come in handy as I will explain in a bit.

Whatever profiles you decide on, a “two piece” crown will make this whole process much simpler and will also allow you to compensate for small variations in your grid dimensions. (It is very difficult to get every cell to measure exactly the same which can make fitting crown an unpleasant process.)

Working overhead is brutal. Your back, shoulders and neck will hate you after a few hours. The blood will run out of your arms and your hands will go numb. For this reason, it is best to “stage” the entire room. Use sawhorses, planks, funky plywood, whatever but get the floor up to a level where you can just walk under a beam without hitting your head on it. This will minimize the amount of stress the overhead work will produce. Moving staging around can work but by the time you are halfway through the project, you will be wishing you had staged the whole room. Trust me on this one.

My “System”

The system I am describing here is designed to allow you to do as much work as possible “on the bench” further reducing the stress of overhead work.

There are at least a million ways to do this but the attached drawing shows my “favorite” method of fabrication. Also, needless to say the molding profiles themselves are infinitely variable.

88410

The cleats are attached to the ceiling first to define the cells. Then the “drops” are made up as four sided frames or boxes, slipped into the cells and glued and screwed (or nailed if you want to “wimp out”). The rabbeted bottom “chord” is backed with a strip of plywood which is glued and screwed to the back side of the facing piece. Then these pieces are slipped into the spaces between the drops and glued and screwed (or nailed if you want to “wimp out”). Run full length pieces in one direction and “cut in” the cross pieces.

In ceilings where the drops are designed to reveal “more wood” between the bottoms of the crowns and the trim rabbet, I usually make the drops by attaching strips of solid wood to the plywood drops with splines and glue. (This “system” is designed to waste a minimum of hardwood. If the drops are made of solid boards that end up having to be six or more inches wide, you can chew up a lot of good material which will be forever hidden behind crowns and other moldings.)

The rabbet on the bottom chord is completely optional. But I like the way the extra detail defines the grid and really makes it “pop”. However, it does involve an extra step in that the ends of the cross pieces need to be notched to fit into the rabbets.

The crowns are cut and assembled “on the bench” in the same manner as the drops. I glue and clamp them with those wire spring clamps and then “back nail” them. If there are wood ceiling panels I attach them to the tops of the crowns before they are installed. Then slip these into the cells and nail tack them in place. Use a gauge block to locate the bottom of the crown in relation to the bottom of the beam, not the ceiling (remember that extra eighth of an inch? This is where it can come in handy.) This method makes it enormously easier to fit all those inside crown joints.

Once all of the crowns (and panels) have been installed, you can run your secondary trim. With the two piece crown system, the only moldings you have to cut and fit "in place" are these small easy to handle pieces of trim. Finally run the bottom trim in the rabbets (if you are using them.)

If you need any further assistance, feel free to PM or email me directly....

[Lewis Cobb]

David -
I'm following this thread with keen interest. I have wanted to do one of these ceilings in a small room in my house someday when I turn it into a little library. There's something that I am not quite clear on in your description. Actually there's a bunch ( I am not the sharpest tool in the shed at times...) but I will only bother you with one question at this early stage :o

The plywood boxes that form the "drops" - are they fastened to the cleats on the ceiling, or is one side of the box the cleat itself? Do you have any other skteches or pics that would show how the plywood drops look when they are installed at an intersection, before the crowns, and bottom "chord" ?

Thanks for inspiring me and probably bunch of others with your detailed description and pictures on your website.

Cheers,
Lewis

[David DeCristoforo]

The cleats are attached to the ceiling. The drops are attached to the cleats. I can post some more sketches in a day or so. But basically what you are doing is forming the grid on the ceiling with the cleats. Then you make up the drops and attach them to the cleats.

[David DeCristoforo]

OK... here you are lying on the floor looking up at the grid. You are looking at six "intersections", two at the wall (left side) and four "in the field". The wide lines are the cleats. The narrow "boxes" represent the drops. On the left is a "half beam" against the wall. As you can see from the sketch, it is not necessary to miter the drops as the bottom edges are covered by the bottom chord. At least with this system they are! This should either clarify or confuse you even more....

88418

[Lewis Cobb]

The cleats are attached to the ceiling. The drops are attached to the cleats. I can post some more sketches in a day or so. But basically what you are doing is forming the grid on the ceiling with the cleats. Then you make up the drops and attach them to the cleats.

ok - I think I understand what you are doing. No rush on the sketches, but when you have a chance, post 'em up - it may clear up a few other questions that I had as well. Thanks !
Lewis

[Ben Grunow]

I think the most important factor in deciding wether or not to create on of these can be the condition of the ceiling itself. Take a string line and stretch it diagonally across the room and determine the amount of sag that exists in the joists above.

Unless you have done several of these ceilings, an inch or so will really cause you some major grief and have ill effects on your results.

If you have a sagged ceiling, design your beams with enough reveal from the bottom of the crown to the bottom of the beams so that you dont see the variations. It is worth a look as most existing ceilings have 1/2" or so.

I use the method described above as well. Maybe a couple screws in the back of the crown joints. I also think that lighting looks fine if it is off center as long as some symmetry (sp?) is kept. Smaller diameter recessed lights can go a long way as well.

[Lewis Cobb]

OK... here you are lying on the floor looking up at the grid. You are looking at six "intersections", two at the wall (left side) and four "in the field". The wide lines are the cleats. The narrow "boxes" represent the drops. On the left is a "half beam" against the wall. As you can see from the sketch, it is not necessary to miter the drops as the bottom edges are covered by the bottom chord. At least with this system they are! This should either clarify or confuse you even more....

88418


Ah Ha ! ok - now I understand what's going on. Thanks for the sketch. I was thinking about the boxes (drops) as beams, not as the sides of a shallow box that fits in between the cleats....

What do you use for the cleats ? Solid wood as opposed to plywood to avoid your screws going into the edge of plywood ?

Thanks again !

Lewis

[Per Swenson]

Let me see if I can help a little,

I nail and glue the cleats to the ceiling using pl poly.

What actually holds the whole shebang up is the crown molding,

because you can nail that everywhere.

I hope this helps

Per

[David DeCristoforo]

Nice, Per. Like I said, there's at least a million ways to do this. I've personally tried maybe ten of them.

And to Ben: You are correct. A one inch belly in the ceiling could complicate things. But the amount of sag becomes less of an issue as the room size increases. An extreme sag in a small room would be more of a complication as the same sag in a larger room. Having said that. if the ceiling framing is created by roof trusses or "truss joists", they tend to be flatter. But not having a perfectly flat ceiling does not automatically preclude coffering. I've woodworked some pretty funky ceilings and somehow, from the floor, you would never know it was not all on exactly the same plane.

[richard poitras]

Not to take away from any of the great work and information we are getting here on how to build and install a coffered ceiling but has any one done or looked at the new kit drop ceiling type coffered ceilings they offer now (they did one on Home Time not too long ago) they are suppose to run about $16.00 to $25.00 a square foot? …. Dave how do they come pare to your prices you get for doing ceilings? (If I may ask not sure if that’s a personal or business thing you don’t want to discuse)I know on the show and some of the web sites they look pretty good.. Hers one of the kits below..

http://www.woodgrid.com/images/pineceilingsmall.gif (http://www.woodgrid.com/images/pineceiling.gif)

[Ben Grunow]

Exactly what I was saying David. I think the important thing to decide (each room is different) is when there is too much sag.

When I build a coffer I usually flatten the ceiling to avoid trying to bend my crowns and beams (and the comments of some nutty lady who I am usually working for).

I do like to make all of the backup nailers and boxes that are unseen outof ply as it limits the shrinkage.

[Greg Funk]

David, Per:

Thanks very much for sharing. Lots of good ideas here!

Greg

[Dave MacArthur]

Wow. This was my entertainment for the evening, and it was very enjoyable. Loved David's site and work, as well as everyone else's posts.