Cabinet grade plywood question

[Gene Michael]

Recently purchased some 4 x 8 x 3/4 oak veneer plywood from the blue borg to make my mother-in-law a couple of cabinets with hutches. Ran into a problem AFTER cutting, glueing and assembling. Was doinbg a lite hand sanding of one of the cabinet tops prior to finishing and went through the veneer. There was a void in the next layer down about 1/4" wide and 10" long. Contacted the blue borg manager and was told that voids in cabinet plywood are normal and acceptable if they are a quarter in or less wide. After all the work of building the cabinets, the manager suggested I return the defective piece of wood for a partial refund (based on the percentage of a 4 x 8 sheet it represented). There was no mention of having to redo an entire cabinet. Though my next purchase of oak ply will be from somewhere other than a borg, I'm curious. Is there some type of standard to which oak (or other hard wood) veneer ply must comply and does is include voids of any type just under the veneer surface?

[David DeCristoforo]

Higher quality plywood grades have limitations on core gaps. There is no actual grade called "cabinet grade". That term is rather loosely applied to many of the "better" grades of sheet goods but you are not likely to find these at the "BORG". Many panels are now laid up on MDF or MDO to avoid core defects. But these panels tend to be just as costly as good quality veneer core sheets. Being a "BORG free" type, it is cracking me up that they offered to take back the "defective piece for a partial refund". Gimmie a break....

[Paul Girouard]

Yes there is a grading guide line , this link might have what your looking for .

http://www.awi-wa.com/_hidden/apagrades.htm

But if you buy lumber or plywood from a "borg" type store your getting the cheapest crap they can find , from anywhere in the world that sells it / lays it up , and at the cheapest price.

In other words buying what you call "finish grade" plywood from a Borg type store is really silly.

What you more than likely purchased was shop grade rotary sawn Red Oak plywood , heck it might even be Red Oak veneer although it could be some sub species of what looks like Oak from who knows where.

The price of plywood when your building something you want to last should be sort of a after though about spending $60.00 to $80.00 dollars a sheet instead of the cheapest priced crap you can find. Your situation is a prime example of saving a few bucks :(

Pretty much a cross post with Dave , I didn't see his post as I was formating mine, but they are about the same.

[glenn bradley]

Finding a problem with your material is a big disappointment. Especially after moving forward with the project. Your profile doesn't state where you are geographically but look for a lumber yard in your area. This can sometimes be a challenge as lumber yards can run all the way form construction supply outfits to exotic-only outfits. You're looking for someplace that sells a good supply of domestics, a few exotics and of course, sheet goods. If you post your location perhaps others in your area can help.

From their site:
The APA Mark of Quality

http://www.apawood.org/images/b_images/TMAC.JPG

"APA trademarks appear only on products manufactured by APA member mills. The mark signifies that panel quality is subject to verification through APA audit– a procedure designed to assure manufacture in conformance with APA performance standards or the standard shown in the mark."

[tim mathis]

A- 1 would have the least voids.
the oak and birch plywood at lowe's and home depot does not have any markings of grade.it is made in china , some that i have purchased had red glue that stunk when cut and started to come apart quickly. and forget about cutting dado's because it is not the same thickness throughout the sheet.some have posted about cutting into metal in the plywood from china.
i will not purchase their plywood . i go to a lumber supply and pay 20-25 dollars more per sheet and the 3 i purchase at their plywood is made in u.s.a.
but they also carry the china crap for the same price as lowe's and h.d. so it makes me wonder how long i will be able to get the u.s.a. stuff from them.
tim m.

[Rob Will]

The whole purpose of a Borg is to negotiate for inferior goods and sell them to you at an inflated price.

Rob

[Stephen Edwards]

Check out these folks for quality plywoods:

http://www.panoplycorp.com/index.asp?CID=609630351.104473

It's my understanding that they will make you any kind of plywood that you want. It's my experience that if you talk to them on the phone they give you straight answers.

When I need a few sheets of quality plywood I'm fortunate enough to be able to buy it from a very large custom cabinet shop in Kentucky who also sells stock to other woodworkers. I don't know where he gets his plywood from but it's good stuff.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,

Contacted the blue borg manager and was told that voids in cabinet plywood are normal and acceptable if they are a quarter in or less wide.
Gaps may be acceptable to them (& their orange borg counterpart), but they should not be tolerated by the consumers (you and me).

This has become such a frequent and often brought up subject here at SMC, there has to be some way to band together and put some pressure on the borgs.
According to the splash screen there's >34,000 members here w/ > 12,000 active members.
This forum (SMC) is one of many WW'ing forums on the web. If each of us invest the price of a stamp and sent a letter to the presidents of both borgs - " Chi-Ply. We're mad as heck, and not buying it anymore" .
Maybe that would get their attention.

[Joe Chritz]

A-1 is veneer grading. A front, 1 back and is the highest grade normally used.

HPVA is a voluntary grading system many manufactures adhere to. Unfortunately the grading scale is only available for purchase as they don't offer the listing anywhere for free.

An A-1 panel is most likely to have the best cores. Sometime many thin cores sometimes fewer thicker cores.

I have used some B-2 graded maple which surprisingly enough I can source from Menard's. It has 5 thick plies and is very stable and flat. Granted I have only used about 25 sheets or so but it has all (except one de-lamination) been very good.

Void free plywood is available but must be spec's as such.

Quality plywood is so expensive I often try to use raised panel sides when I can. There are more hours but the look is well worth it.

Joe

[Howard Acheson]

Let me start by saying that the big boxes do not sell "furniture grade" oak plywood. Their material is "cabinet grade". Now, as said, there is no standard for "furniture grade" or "cabinet grade". These are marketing terms made up by the seller of plywood. That said, the big boxes generally offer B-3 face graded plywood. This grade allows separations between interior plies. So what you bought is not a "defect".

As said, the top, and most expensive grade of hardwood plywood is A-1 where the A is a premium appearance face grade and the back is another perfect veneer. The interior plies in this grade of wood can also have voids but they are smaller than the voids in lesser grade plywood. The only plywood specifically made without voids is marine or aircraft although most A-1 is void free.

So, don't blame the big boxed for selling "inferior" plywood. Their red oak plywood comes from major US and Canadian manufacturers. What they sell is not premium plywood nor do they advertise or price it as such. If you want top grade plywood, go to a specialty plywood supplier. Remember, the big box customer is a DIY'er or a contractor, not a woodworker or cabinet maker.

[Jeff Duncan]

I agree with Howie, the Borg's sell what people want....cheap! If anyone wants to buy quality products they are very easily attainable. And it's up to the buyer to look into what they are buying before they spend there money. Don't blame them for selling what the majority of people want, they're whole reason for existing is to provide stuff cheaply.
As to the original question, you'll not likely see any stamps on the face, as veneer core plywood destined for cabinetry generally isn't stamped, exterior stuff is stamped. On cabinet plywood you'll usually find markings on the edge which will tell you grade and manufacturer, it does differ though. I've had good experience with Columbia products and Norbond also. The most common will be one face A grade and a back with B or C grade. If your not sure ask, if they can't tell you right off the bat your in the wrong place, move to the next supplier. If you buy the better product you will most likely not find any voids under the surface, there will be voids within the inner cores though, but they're generally not a problem. However any product can have defects, I've had sheets where the veneer was delaminating, and sheets with surface checking, so you still have to inspect what your buying. With the better product from a reputable supplier if you do find a problem you would get a full refund or exchange though.

good luck,
JeffD

[Fred Voorhees]

I've used HD's 3/4 oak ply for a few projects and have had good results. Not great results, but good. But let me tell you of my recent experience with them. For a recent project, I had to really sift through the piles of ply to get a few good sheets that were acceptable. Being alone, well, you can imagine that it was tough to move the stuff around. It was a particularly bad batch.

I contacted Home Depot customer relations through their website and described my bad experience with their 3/4 plywood selection and my general overall dissatisfaction with the quality of their plywood. I told them that I have quite often been a big booster of their stores, but their plywood quality was beginning to wear on me and I also wondered if they would ever stock a better grade - US made plywood. After about two weeks I got an email from them saying that they were sending a gift card to me. About two weeks ago, I got it in the mail and they stated that they give customer satisfaction the highest regard and care about their customers purchasing experiences. Well, not one word regarding my thoughts about their plywood quality. Not a mention at all about my concerns. I felt as if they were simply trying to buy my happiness with a $20 gift card. While I will find a use for the card, and I thanked them for it, I also stated my feelings about them trying to buy me off and asked why they didn't even deal with my original cause for contacting them. I'm waiting for a response.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Don't blame them for selling what the majority of people want, they're whole reason for existing is to provide stuff cheaply."

The funny thing is, this is not really what the majority of people want. The majority of people do not know anything about this stuff to begin with. They see one piece of plywood and it looks pretty much the same as another. But they really want "decent" material at a low price (oxymoron?) and that's what they think they are getting. It's not until after they get the stuff home and find what Gene found that they start asking questions. Then the "Borgetts" start feeding them this line about how "normal" it all is. The biggest problem is that most of the people who work at these places don't know any better either. But the customers think they do because they see all those ads telling them how knowledgeable these people are. They see that orange vest and assume that that is some kind of "badge of professionalism"....Har!

[Burt Waddell]

Also there are differences in plywoods produced by different Mfgs. I prefer the COlumbia forest brand and normally use a b-2 grade for all of our cabinets. In my experience the borgs normally carry c-3. Grade standards so no relationship between the voids in the core and the grade but I have found better grades to have a better. I normally have no problems with the columbia forest b-2.

Also different companies use different wood for the core of the plywood. COlumbia forest uses popular. States and GP normally use fir. The popular core works better.

[Jeff Duncan]

Sorry Dave, but here I must disagree with you. In my 'former life' I spent 5 years wearing an orange apron. They hired me for my prior experience working in cabinet shops, so they figured I was knowledgeable in tools. My day to day experience was trying to explain to contractors and homeowners why if they spent a few bucks more, they would have a better product that would last longer. Guess what, the majority of people still wanted the cheaper product. Which is completely fine, what really drives you nuts is they want you to tell them it will still do everything the better product will.
Well we all know logically the cheaper product whether it's solid lumber, or plywood, or power tools or whatever is cheaper for a reason. Well when enough people are buying the cheaper products and not buying the more expensive one's guess what happens, yup, away goes the better stuff to make room for more crap. Don't believe me, just walk into any Wal-Mart and see what's on their shelves. Everyone claims to want better, but they're voting with their wallets, why else would a place like Wal-Mart be the biggest retailer in the world?
Like I said previously, and I really believe, it's a buyers job to do their own research. How hard is it to go online and throw a post out that says "hey, how's the quality of x product at y store?" I always try to check in with someone whether it's hardware, lumber, plywood etc. How's the quality/service/pricing? I don't always buy the best, or even the second best. But I try to know what I'm buying so I know what to expect. I can't afford Martin machinery so I buy stuff that's less expensive, I just don't expect it to be as good as the Martin. And if I'm building shop cabinets I would go for the cheaper ply, though I try to avoid their lumber like the plague, not really good for anything IMHO.
Anyway I've done it again, rambled on for far too long, that's my 2 cents for what their worth.
good luck,
JeffD

[David DeCristoforo]

"In my 'former life' I spent 5 years wearing an orange apron. They hired me for my prior experience working in cabinet shops, so they figured I was knowledgeable in tools."

Well that may be and I sure don't want to insult anyone. But in my experience you would, without a doubt, be the exception. Example: We needed some beadboard for a small wainscoting project. We could have ordered it from our usual supplier but we would have preferred not to have to wait. So we went to a local (Name Deleted) and asked an orange vest if they had any. He looked at me as if I had three lips so I described what beadboard was. His light went on and he took me over to where they had their sheet goods and pointed to a stack of embossed 1/4" MDF. I explained that we wanted the kind that was made of actual wood and told him that it usually came in bundles. He informed me that "they don't make that stuff anymore". When I told him he was mistaken, he went and got a "supervisor" who insisted that this was no longer available. Pretty soon there were no fewer than four orange vests all telling me that I was living in the past. They ware all rude and treated me like I was so, you know, like, old and out of touch with the modern world dude....

I could give you a few more similar anecdotes but it would be pointless. I will just say that, so far, I have never encountered anyone like yourself in any of the "borgs" and I simply quit going to them. At this point I am happy to go completely out of my way to avoid them because I really am trying to be more "mellow" and, being Italian, it's already hard enough.....

[Matt Ocel]

Howie -
I just bought a 4x8 x 7mm sheet of red oak ply at Orange last week and right on the ply it was stamped "made in china"

[Rob Will]

"Don't blame them for selling what the majority of people want, they're whole reason for existing is to provide stuff cheaply."

The funny thing is, this is not really what the majority of people want. The majority of people do not know anything about this stuff to begin with. They see one piece of plywood and it looks pretty much the same as another. But they really want "decent" material at a low price (oxymoron?) and that's what they think they are getting. It's not until after they get the stuff home and find what Gene found that they start asking questions. Then the "Borgetts" start feeding them this line about how "normal" it all is. The biggest problem is that most of the people who work at these places don't know any better either. But the customers think they do because they see all those ads telling them how knowledgeable these people are. They see that orange vest and assume that that is some kind of "badge of professionalism"....Har!

David is right. Around here, the Borgs sell inferior grade merchandise yet market it as "top of the line".

I want to buy quality but sometimes that is hard to do when a Borg comes to town and starts driving down price and quality.

At first, I gave the Borg the benefit of the doubt but now I am starting to learn some of thier tricks and steer away.:o

Rob

[John McCall]

Stephen,

Are you willing to share information (name and location) of your Kentucky supplier of quality plywood?

John

[Peter Quinn]

I was in a blue borg today looking for fertilizer (the store is so full of crap it wasn't hard to find) and swung through the plywood aisle to see what was on offer. Uggggggly stuff! They put the G in the word ULI! They had oakish, birch-like, maple-esque and a shop grade "white wood" (what the heck is white wood?). All stamped simply "China". All were labeled "professional quality cabinet grade", all looked like they had been sized with a chain saw, the factory edges were rougher than typical GP CDX sheathing. The core veneers viewed from the edge looked like a geological dig, layers rolling one into the next, and when sited down the length of a sheet each sheet looked like waves on an ocean, like they had been stored outside!

If some manager is trying to tell you that major voids in the core just below the face veneer are normal or acceptable than he is an excuse pedaling moron. For the $49.95 a sheet of the junk I witnessed today you deserve and can get better elsewhere for the same or not much more money. Do your self a favor and stay away from that stuff and that place for your sheet goods.


Heres a handy chart for basic plywood grading. If your plywood doesn't have an ansi grade on it your probably getting the wrong stuff, and "CHINA" is not a grading standard.

http://justwoodworking.com/charts/hardwood_plywood.php

[Paul Girouard]

Sorry Dave, but here I must disagree with you. In my 'former life' I spent 5 years wearing an orange apron. They hired me for my prior experience working in cabinet shops, so they figured I was knowledgeable in tools. My day to day experience was trying to explain to contractors and homeowners why if they spent a few bucks more, they would have a better product that would last longer. Guess what, the majority of people still wanted the cheaper product. Which is completely fine, what really drives you nuts is they want you to tell them it will still do everything the better product will.
Well we all know logically the cheaper product whether it's solid lumber, or plywood, or power tools or whatever is cheaper for a reason. Well when enough people are buying the cheaper products and not buying the more expensive one's guess what happens, yup, away goes the better stuff to make room for more crap. Don't believe me, just walk into any Wal-Mart and see what's on their shelves. Everyone claims to want better, but they're voting with their wallets, why else would a place like Wal-Mart be the biggest retailer in the world?
Like I said previously, and I really believe, it's a buyers job to do their own research. How hard is it to go online and throw a post out that says "hey, how's the quality of x product at y store?" I always try to check in with someone whether it's hardware, lumber, plywood etc. How's the quality/service/pricing? I don't always buy the best, or even the second best. But I try to know what I'm buying so I know what to expect. I can't afford Martin machinery so I buy stuff that's less expensive, I just don't expect it to be as good as the Martin. And if I'm building shop cabinets I would go for the cheaper ply, though I try to avoid their lumber like the plague, not really good for anything IMHO.
Anyway I've done it again, rambled on for far too long, that's my 2 cents for what their worth.
good luck,
JeffD



What ya really think Jeff , don't hold back this time.



http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/dirtbox/pics/muttley.gif

[Tony Bilello]

I am slowly figuring out the acronyms on this site.
This one is way our of my real.....What is a 'borg'?

Tony B

[David DeCristoforo]

Big Orange Retail Giant

[Paul Girouard]

Or from Star Trek the next generation , the Borg assimilated every thing / everybody they encountered , like the big box guys tend to do , weaker / smaller retailers just get assimilated , sucked up in the big cube.

So either way Dave's or the Star trek Borg, it works. Walmart could be Borg as well , not orange but the do assimilate retail stores.

[Art Mulder]

Recently purchased some 4 x 8 x 3/4 oak veneer plywood from the blue borg to make my mother-in-law a couple of cabinets with hutches. Ran into a problem AFTER cutting, gluing and assembling. Was doing a lite hand sanding of one of the cabinet tops prior to finishing and went through the veneer. There was a void in the next layer .... . Is there some type of standard to which oak (or other hard wood) veneer ply must comply and does is include voids of any type just under the veneer surface?

Getting back to the original post....

Gene,

Even if there wasn't a void there, going through the veneer would have been a problem, since the wood under the veneer would not match.

Is this cabinet a "one off" or is it part of several cabinets? One possible solution would be to glue another (thinner?) sheet of plywood over top, glue it down, and adjust the trim around the top edge of the cabinet to hide the fact that there are two sheets on top.

For instance, get yourself a nice sheet of 1/4" oak plywood, cut a piece to match, finish sand it before you attach it, and then glue it down on the top. Then tweak the trim around the top.

Or you could experiment with applying your own veneer (I've never done that)

You don't say exactly what kind of cabinet this is, so I'm guessing a lot as to my glib comment about "adjusting the trim".

Just trying to make some suggestions that I hope will help.