True woodworkers deck

[Joe Petersen]

I have a simple deck 10x10 and I want to extend to the corner of the house to make 10x16. I want to leave a mark of more than a stick house builder and fancy it up a little. My plans are as follows and I would like input to what you folks have done and why and possibly see pics. I am really cheap and cost will prevail even if I just make it bigger. Also I am a huge fan of metal and wood. Also thin spindles are nice so I can see through well.

The decking will be simple. 16' wide boards staggered every other board cut in the middle at 8'.
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I want to use hidden fasteners but they seem high. The 16' 5/4x6 are the same price as 16' 2x6. I wonder if I could just toenail the thick boards?

I want to get creative on the handrails as I now have just an X made from 2x4's. I think I'll use steel spindles of some type, in mortised holes on a top and bottom vertical rail. BORG sells 15 straight round spindles for $30, but I will probably twist solid square stock. This is really cheap at the steel supplier and I can twist small stock cold or heat the bigger stuff with a torch.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Building a 16' deck, why do you want "every other board cut in the middle at 8'"? Use 16' decking and no butt joints - that will be stronger and better looking.

If you want a good looking deck that will hold up to weather, use DeckMaster brackets - no screw holes on the top of the deck for moisture to penetrate.

"I wonder if I could just toenail the thick boards?" No! Nailing a deck is a disaster waiting to happen. Weather will cause the nails to pop. Screws are a must for decking. Hidden screws, mentioned above, are the best alternative.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello Joe,
I'm not the most knowledgeable person when it comes to WW'ing.
I do know a fair amount about how to treat bare steel though.

BORG sells 15 straight round spindles for $30, but I will probably twist solid square stock. This is really cheap at the steel supplier
I believe the borg spindles are anodized aluminum.
W/steel, your going to have to prep it, prime it and paint it. In a few years (5 to 7), your going to have to repeat the prep, prime, paint routine.
Good metal primer - Rustoleum isn't going to cut it - is expensive.
A good top coat is going to be equally expensive.
Prep - for the mild steel you have in mind - will require a near white metal blast. Hand prep - even with power tools such as a ROS - isn't sufficient. You can cut the expected life above roughly in half.

The other thing to consider with steel, is when the time comes to recoat it, you'll be faced with having to refinish them in-place.
If you do end up going the steel route, you might want to make some provision ahead of time for removing them so they can be easily refinished when the time comes.

Mind you, I'm not trying to discourage you. Personally, I think twisting your own is a great idea. (which I'm probably going to steal ;).
Just pointing out that there's some hidden cost/effort involved.

[Randal Cobb]

I was thinking about doing something similar with my deck... Would powder-coating the steel spindles be a better option? I know it's much more expensive, but from an ease of maintenance and durability perspective, wouldn't it last much longer than having to refinish every 5-7 years?

Sorry, didn't mean to steal the OP's thread, just thought I would ask since I am planning something similar.

[DougButterfield]

I think the most sage advise on decks I ever received was from George at East Teak when I was peppering him with questions over the Ipe I ordered thru him. I'll give you his words and leave it at that....

"Doug...it's just a deck....whether you make it from Ipe, Tigerwood, Mahogany, Cedar or plain old pine...it's just a deck. Birds are gonna sh_t on it, people are gonna spill their drinks on it, you're gonna drop food on it and you can't stop the sun, rain or snow.....it's just a deck. Don't try and make a piece of furniture.....cause it's just a deck."

[Matt Ocel]

Doug -

Tell George that if we all thought like him, we would still be living in caves!

[Barry Reade]

I was thinking about doing something similar with my deck... Would powder-coating the steel spindles be a better option? I know it's much more expensive, but from an ease of maintenance and durability perspective, wouldn't it last much longer than having to refinish every 5-7 years?

Randall, Powder Coating would last many years longer but the cost will be high. Another option that I used on a steel drive on boat trailer that I used in salt water was to coat the bare metal with phosphoric acid, let dry, prime with zinc chromate (yellow, that everyone says is just for aluminum), finish with acrylic enamel with the catalyst hardener. This was a fairly inexpensive finish and when I sold the trailer 12 yrs later the finish was still good.:eek:

If you are a DIYer consider getting a Powder Coating kit and and old electric range with an oven that works and do your own powder coating.;)

[Gary Tenney]

I built a thousand square foot two level deck with lots of turns and such. I used aluminum spindles, but at the time they were only available online from the manufacturer and were much more expensive. They were easy to install as only 3/4" holes were drilled in both upper and lower rails. It turned out very nice and the spindles looked a bit like iron without close inspection. Unfortunately it was lost in Hurrican Katrina. We lived on the gulf in Mississippi. After the hurricane I found a section of it on the train tracks a half mile away still intack. Anyhow, If I were building another, I would use the alumninum spindles. Good luck!
Gary

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello Randy,
Powder coating - as mentioned -is going to add to the cost.
It's uncertain if it will add enough life to justify it though.

The coating used on the steel will break down on the parts that go into the wood. Those pockets will trap and hold water, which will first attack the coating, then, when the coating fails, attack the steel underneath.

By the time you see the damage - the small blisters on the coating just where it exits the wood - some pretty serious damage has taken place where you can't see it.

IMHO - it wouldn't be worth the extra cost or effort to use a powder coating for a DIY'er.

[Steve Rayboy]

Joe,

I'm a deck builder, and Ipe has been my decking material for the past 10 years.
You don't mention what type of wood you're gonna use, but since you said you're cheap, and mentioned the borg...I have to assume you intend to use ACQ pressure treated. That stuff really sucks, and no matter what you do creatively, it's still gonna look bad. I use it for substructure, but I have to hurry and screw it together before it twists and cups. Do not attempt to use hidden fasteners, as ACQ laughs at hidden fasteners. Top screw with 3" screws, and if you want a high end touch, plug the screw holes.

For railings, you could try 3/4" copper pipe. It works good with ACQ, because of the high copper content of the chemical treatment in the ACQ (it's the C in ACQ). The copper pipe will patina nicely over time. Do not use aluminum balusters, as they react badly with ACQ.

Since you can get 16 footers, do not make any butt joints, and if you do, don't run them all on the same joist...stagger the joints in a repetitive pattern, and double the joists where the joints fall.

Cedar would be a better decking choice, but it won't last too long. I say get yourself some 1x6 Ipe. You can set your joist at 20" OC, and save a joist or 2. On a 160 sq' deck, it shouldn't cost too much extra, and you'll love the results. Buy the best, and only cry once.

When you buy tool, do you get Harbor Freight junk, or name brands? That reminds me, this would be a good opportunity for you to pick up a Makita 14.4 or 18v impact driver. Now there's a tool that will make you happy.

good luck decking...

steve

[Bob Slater]

I built this 8X12 deck on the third floor of the house out of stained knot free pine and Ipe. It has tempered glass inserts. It has held up very well over the last 4 years.

[Tom Henderson2]

W/steel, your going to have to prep it, prime it and paint it. In a few years (5 to 7), your going to have to repeat the prep, prime, paint routine.
Good metal primer - Rustoleum isn't going to cut it - is expensive.


Hi Rich-

I'm always intersted in learning from the pros so thanks for your comments.

What kind of primer/prep would you recommend for a hobbiest to use?

Unfortunately I don't have a spray setup so rattle-can or brush are my only options...

-TH

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I did conventional 2*s for spindles a between 6*6 posts.

I have frequently thought about taking 'em off and installing Stainless Steel Cabling horizontally to improve the view. The missus however likes the traditional look of the vertical members.

Screws ( as has been said) are far far better 'n nails for any out of doors application. I use screws indoors too cause I don't prefer to hammer and pound indoors which only makes sheet rock fasteners pop on adjacent walls.
Plus they hold better. The tear out guys will hate me in every home I've owned.

[Bruce Elasik]

here are a couple of pics of some 2x2 redwood ballusters ripped from 2x4s. i built my deck of composite boards and built a walk in gazebo on one corner of the deck. the beads on the balusters were done with one of those craftsman table saw molding cutters- this is a link to some pics of the gazebo --some under construction and some finished. http://myweb.cableone.net/bge1/index.htm

[Dave Falkenstein]

here are a couple of pics of some 2x2 redwood ballusters ripped from 2x4s....

In Arizona you can buy 2X2 redwood balusters in 3', 4' and 8' lengths. There is no need to rip them from 2X4's. I use them in deck building projects.

[Steven Hardy]

I know this will strike many as "deck heresy" but as you live in an occasional Ice area , I recommend screws for your deck,ONLY if you make and maintain its absolute water-proofness. Dry the wood for 3 months,then seal it before winter if you use screws
Think about it for a moment. The deck gets wet in the winter ,it soaks,then freezes then expands ,literally popping the threads in the board you have screwed into . When screws pop you no longer have the option to retighten. Pressure treated wood is especially vulnerable. (This I see as a yearly ritual at a local marina) . I strongly recommend galvanised spiral nails. You then have the opportunity of using a punch to reseat the nails every 2-3 years for the first 5-7 years.
Another couple pointers (1) purchase the pressure treated wood in advance and let it dry in the shade using the same techniques as drying high grade lumber. (So very often pressure treated is still wet and saturated when its sold). (2) When placing the boards prior to fastening, use the bark-out technique. Examine the end grain of your board.Place the bark side out as the wood is most prone to warp following that curve...(maybe a little and maybe a lot) When it does warp,its best that the water has the ability to run off...not sit in a cup and saturate even further. With pressure treated pine, there is a likelihood that you will have some pieces that are cut through the center. Dealing with that is a pain.
The steel or iorn is a cool idea.Some people have had success eliminating rust for many years. The aformentioned zinc chromate primer suggestion is a good one.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello Tom,

What kind of primer/prep would you recommend for a hobbiest to use?
Without access to - or a desire &/or funds to buy - the right equipment, you're pretty limited.
The OP lists metal fabricating in his profile, so I'm going under the presumption he has access to or has a sandblaster plus an outlet for buying the right primer/topcoat.
Also , another poster mentioned the copper content of ACQ treated lumber.
Copper + steel + moisture (such as water trapped in the area where the spindles are set in) will create a galvanic action between the copper and steel.
This places the environment in the "aggressive" category.
For aggressively corrosive environments, the best prep is a near white metal sand blast followed by a coat of organic zinc rich primer followed by a top coat recommended by the mfg of the primer.
This is probably not practical for most hobbiests, due to the equipment needed for prep and for application.
The steel stock being used for the spindles is right at the ragged edge of being thick enough to use this process.

Fortunately there is an alternative. Actually a few.
-Excellent-
- A vinyl etching primer. Hand prep can be used rather than a sandblasting to near white metal. It can also be brushed on as well as sprayed.
The downsides - it's tricky to apply since the required dry film thickness is crucial to it's performance. Too thin and it won't work, too thick, and it will crack, leaving the metal beneath unprotected. It also isn't sacrificial like the inorganic zinc rich material.
You're also somewhat limited as to you choice of topcoats.

- Very Good -
- A DTM primer. (DTM stands for direct to metal). Again - hand prep will work, sandblasting is preferred. Most are polyurethane materials which a converted - one part material one part converter, or 4 to 1 or something in between. Topcoat with whatever the mfg recommends.
Downside - anything converted is tricky to work with especially if the ratio isn't 1:1.
Downside - they need to be sprayed. They can be brushed, but there will be tool marks.
Prep can be done with hand power tools - sander and/or wire wheel.

- Above average -
- Red Oxide Shop primer.(Sometimes call a Wash Primer)(not a regular Red Oxide primer such as Rustoleum) Think Rustoleum on steroids. Rustoleum is OK, but it's not up to a corrosive environment. Shop primers are usually formulated to take a wide range of topcoats - anything from Alkyd to Epoxy.
Surface prep really needs to be a near white metal sandblast. Hand prep will work, but, not anywhere near as well & is generally not recommended/ not done. Can be welded through also. Can be brushed rolled sprayed or dipped. Cleanup/reduction is with Xylene.
Sounds nearly perfect right?
But (you knew this was coming),, it's main use is by steel fabricators to protect their products during shipment and to provide a primed surface that will accept a top coat, or can easily be removed if need be.
As such, it's soft - and the biggest drawback - it's usually only packaged in 55 gal drums. Sometimes it can be had in 5 gal pails. Rarely in gallon cans.

- Good to Fair -
- Red Oxide metal primer &/or Zinc Chromate metal primer- Rustoleum &/or Krylon for instance.
The real key to the performance of this is surface prep. It makes the difference between a fair job and a good job.
Wire wheel and if at all possible sandblast afterward, even if it's only a brush blast. Blasting is critical since it knocks down high spots and provides a "tooth" for the primer.

Best advice I can give is check with several local paint stores. Tell them you have a moderately corrosive environment to deal with, where a galvanic action is going to be expected between steel and copper.
Most of the "clerks" are going to walk you over to the Rustoleum rack and say this is what they have. Smile politely, thank them, pretend to read the label and then leave. Eventually, you hit one actual "salesperson", that will say " I've got just what you need", and produce something based on one of the above or suggest a viable alternative.

There's hundreds of different materials/brands that will give good to very good performance in a moderately corrosive environment.

Me personally, I'm going to opt for shorter life, but make some provisions for easy removal of the spindles and redo them on a regular basis - say every 5 years or so. I'll probably go the wash primer route and a waterborne topcoat. Where the metal meets the wood, I'm thinking about dipping the ends in roof coating - since the spindles will be painted black.
I'm also thinking that I'll make some provision to drain away any water, weep holes maybe?
Or I'll just wimp out and go with Aluminum ;)

HTH.

[Joe Petersen]

(Sorry about the spacing, the computer keeps changing it) I do a bit of metal fab and I understand all the consequences and requirements of outdoor use. Which is why I use DTM for most projects. It actually acts more like a plastic dip than a paint and if it's coated real well will last forever. Repainting metal on a deck is just as simple as painting the house in normal upkeep. What I was not prepared for was the reaction it may have to the pressure treatment chemical. I didn't even think of this even though I knew you're supposed to use the stainless screws. I have a few changes to the plan after this weekend. I bought a used 13" Rigid thickness planer for real cheap and used up the majority of the funds for the deck extension anyway. I have started milling lumber with my chainsaw and needed a planer. I am spreading the word for cedar trees and hope to mill my own wood for the deck. Unfortunately, in my area they are hard to come by. I don't really like the idea of the aluminum spindles I saw at the store because they are just too plain for what I want. I did a small 1/4 square bar project this weekend, and that will definitely be the spindles when I do get to fix the deck.

[Dan Racette]

I have a simple deck 10x10 and I want to extend to the corner of the house to make 10x16. I want to leave a mark of more than a stick house builder and fancy it up a little. My plans are as follows and I would like input to what you folks have done and why and possibly see pics. I am really cheap and cost will prevail even if I just make it bigger. Also I am a huge fan of metal and wood. Also thin spindles are nice so I can see through well.

The decking will be simple. 16' wide boards staggered every other board cut in the middle at 8'.
--
__

--
I want to use hidden fasteners but they seem high. The 16' 5/4x6 are the same price as 16' 2x6. I wonder if I could just toenail the thick boards?

I want to get creative on the handrails as I now have just an X made from 2x4's. I think I'll use steel spindles of some type, in mortised holes on a top and bottom vertical rail. BORG sells 15 straight round spindles for $30, but I will probably twist solid square stock. This is really cheap at the steel supplier and I can twist small stock cold or heat the bigger stuff with a torch.
http://www.daikudojo.org/Classes/20070916_gate_project/
Here are some nice pics, if'n you'd want to go all out!

[Matt Ocel]

Hey Dan -

Some Pictures?

I'm more impressed with how you can upload 172 pictures.:)

BTW nice work on the Japanese Gate.

[Gordy Anderson]

Joe,

I'm a deck builder, and Ipe has been my decking material for the past 10 years.

Cedar would be a better decking choice, but it won't last too long. I say get yourself some 1x6 Ipe. You can set your joist at 20" OC, and save a joist or 2. On a 160 sq' deck, it shouldn't cost too much extra, and you'll love the results. Buy the best, and only cry once.

Good luck decking...

steve

What about composite decking? Better/worse than Ipe? Is the stuff at the borg any good? I'm replacing my deck because I did what Joe wants to do. The ends of the 8' pieces have swelled and my wife is tired of stubbing her toes on the ends. Since my deck is 22' wide, and 12' deep, I was thing of running the deck boards straight out from the house. Any pros/cons to that?

Gordy

[Matt Ocel]

What about composite decking? Better/worse than Ipe? Is the stuff at the borg any good? I'm replacing my deck because I did what Joe wants to do. The ends of the 8' pieces have swelled and my wife is tired of stubbing her toes on the ends. Since my deck is 22' wide, and 12' deep, I was thing of running the deck boards straight out from the house. Any pros/cons to that?

Gordy


The composites are fine. There is a little learning curve with each individual product. You need to follow the specs. Composite is quite a bit more expensive. Trex decking is heavy, and gets very hot in the summer sun, I don't like working with composite rail as it needs to be pre-drilled, and looks bad IMHO. It doesn't span as far so you typically need to add an additional stair stringer. I used Procell on a couple of decks, lightweight, doesn't attract as much heat, doesn't need to be pre-drilled, but awful spendy.
Cedar is beautiful and cost effective.

[Scott Schwake]

Also thin spindles are nice so I can see through well.

I wanted to minimize the view obstruction from our 2nd story deck, so I used 3/8" dia. ss dowels for ballusters. I think I figure I paid around $1.00/lf for 12' dowels (a couple years ago), so a 30" balluster cost me about $2.50. Probably more than borg aluminum ballusters, but it's a nice look and less obtrusive (and unique).