New Wooden Jointer with problems

[Brian Kent]

The good news - it is the last day of my vacation and my home-made wooden jointer is almost done. The bad news - it is the last day of my vacation and the home-made wooden jointer doesn't work… yet.

It is inspired by Derek Cohen's much larger jointer: http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=555416#poststop

Mine is 23" long and, like Derek's, carries a blade at a 60 degree angle for difficult hardwoods. It is supposed to work where my #7 Stanley might not. It is made from Padouk with a Bolivian Rosewood bottom and a Cocobolo handle and cross-pin.

My problem - the wedge won't wedge so the blade won't stay put.:mad:

I am using the 48mm blade from the bottom of this page:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=46322&cat=1,41182,46334

The two wedges I have tried are cocobolo and padouk.

I have made two other wooden planes (Krenov Style oak smoother and bloodwood block planes). Both work very well.

I would like your suggestions before I go any further.

[David DeCristoforo]

It looks like the pin is a bit too far away from the blade. In order to compensate, the wedge has to be "too fat" and rounded on the top which is why it's not holding. Does the pin have a flat on the blade side? It's hard to tell from the pic but it looks like it is round which would be a problem. If there is a flat on the pin, it might be possible to add some material on that side of the pin. Basically, the wedge needs to have a shallower angle.

[Ted Jay]

First off let me say this... I know nothing about the construction of these wooden planes. So any stupid comment is ... well, just stupid.:D
Are the wedges supposed to be finished? It seems to me that would help it slip out or not seat as well as it should. Maybe you need a bigger hammer!:eek:
Ted

[Brian Kent]

David, you are right. The wedge does have to be pretty fat as it is. The wedge side of the pin is flat. I could easily add something on the pin. I could even go so far as to drill out the pin, plug the holes with wood from the same piece, then re-drill closer and insert a brass rod as a pin.

If I add something on the wedge side of the pin, I was wondering if I should use a softer wood. Should the wedge compress just a little under pressure or are these harder woods OK? My bloodwood plane works fine and that is very hard wood.

Ted, the wedge is sanded so far but not finished. I have buffed the plane so it is nice and shiny but i haven't oiled, final buffed, or waxed it. Good question, though.

Here is a close-up of the wedge area and some of my other choices for the blade area. From left to right, a piece of soft iron that I could drill or wedge as a sub-blade / chip breaker, the cocobolo wedge, and a Hock blade for Krenov-style blades, close enough to the same size to use.

[David DeCristoforo]

"I could easily add something on the pin. I could even go so far as to drill out the pin, plug the holes with wood from the same piece, then re-drill closer and insert a brass rod as a pin."

I was going to suggest both of those things but I was not sure how "deep" you wanted to go. I would try adding to the pin first as that would be less "disruptive". I have made wedges out of woods like ebony, cocobolo, and goncalo alves with no issues. The shape of the wedge and it's relationship to the pin and blade is far more critical than the material. Try for something more like this (not to scale but you can get the idea) with the wedge thickness at around 1/4 - 3/8" "under the pin". The shape of the wedge at the top can be whatever you want.

88157

[Wilbur Pan]

I agree with David. It looks like the wedge is on the fat side, which you can fix by moving the pin closer to the blade.

For a point of reference, on the wedged wooden planes that I have, the wedge has an angle of about 10-15 degrees, more to the 10 end of the range.

One other thing to try, if you have a way to do this, is to taper the plane iron so that the cutting edge end is thicker than the end that you tap on with a hammer. This makes the engagement of the wedge more secure. All the old wooden planes with wedges had a tapered iron.

[Brian Kent]

I was looking at the distance between the pin and the blade and remembered that when I was measuring for the pin I was still planning on using the hock blade with chip breaker. I had changed my mind when the Lee Valley folks said I could use the single blade for the jointer and save the hock for a smoother.

So I chiseled the groove for the screw, put the Hock in place, adjusted the mouth, and re-cut the wedge. It worked!

I still have some improvements to make on chip clearance, hone the blade and oil the wood, but it works now and I can be happy again.:D

The third picture shows the previous wedge vs the new one.

[Steve knight]

it's not so much the fatness of the wedge as the shape of it. looks like it had a bit of a curve to it. you really want a straight angle 10 degrees works well.
Plus using a softer wood for the wedge would help a lot too.

[Brian Kent]

Thank you Steve.

On a high angle plane can I clear out more space than this in front of the blade? I have a 60 degree blade angle and a 45 degree angle in front of the blade. My test strokes packed in a lot of chips.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...put the Hock in place, adjusted the mouth, and re-cut the wedge. It worked!"

Sweeet! You will be very happy having the cap iron as well....

[Steve knight]

well your a bit stuck really. thats the problem with the cross pen it gets in the way. You could chop a shallower angle in front but thats hard to do. you can shorten the wedge so little pokes out past the pin. you could remove some of the pin stock. but your pretty limited with a not so tall plane and a 60 degree angle. the chipbreaker may not help but I don't know for sure.

[David DeCristoforo]

You can open up the area in front of the blade. It will require some careful chisel work at this point but you can do it. Just be careful not to get into the "mouth" itself. You want a small (maybe 1/8" "tall") vertical right in front of the blade. Then you can increase the angle of the opening from the top of the "flat" which should help with chip clearance. The jamming is often a problem with planes that use this "Krenov style" pin which can obstruct the chip clearance.
88178
Again, not to scale but just to clarify....

[Brian Kent]

Another option might be to remove the wooden pin and replace it with a 1/4" brass rod. I don't know if there is any way to change from a pin configuration to side-supports for the wedge. Either of these along with chiseling out a little more on the front might help.

I am not averse to re-cutting, re-designing, or learning new skills, either on this plane or the next try.

[David DeCristoforo]

"I am not averse to re-cutting, re-designing, or learning new skills, either on this plane or the next try."

Good. This is called "experience" and there is, as far as I know, only one way to get it. I have almost always used brass pins on my planes mostly because I based them more on Japanese plane design than the "Krenov" style. But I'm sure that with a little "fussing" you can get this plane to work.

[Brian Kent]

David, I'm looking at photos of Japanese style planes. It looks like they may have a 1/8" diameter rod. Would you mind checking to see what thickness you use?

[David DeCristoforo]

On the Japanese planes I have made I have used 3/16" brass. On the "Western style" planes I have used 1/4". On Japanese planes, only the chipper is held by the pin, the main blade being "fixed" in a tapered slot. So with the "wedge" system, you would benefit from a "beefier" pin as it will be under more strain.

[Johnny Kleso]

Have you tried a 2º-3º wedge?
I am sure from the width of pin to blade you will need a double angle for chip clearance but a shallow wedge may do what you need..

What angle is you wedge at that is slipping and what angle works on others you have made?

[Brian Kent]

The wedge that worked is about 15 degrees. I still have the cocobolo wedge so I'll make it at a much shallower angle. Steve Knight recommended 10 degrees with a softer wood. I can try a really shallow angle with the cocobolo.

Right now the issue is chip clearance. What do you mean double angle? One angle for bar contact then another to get out of the way of the chips?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Brian

Beautiful looking plane! Well done.

There are about three, perhaps four, ways to fix your problem. The aim in all is to clear the way for shavings to escape.

The first and easiest fix to try is to reduce the area of the wedge at the mouth. To do this, cut out a triangle of wood at the business end. You will continue to have support from the sides of the wedge. I would also shape the edges there so that the ends of the wedge are more aerodynamic.

The second fix is to shape a wedge that is thick at the top and thinner lower down. The trouble, as Steve as mentioned, the cross bar still gets in the way.

The third and fourth fixes are more radical: replace the wooden cross bar with a brass bar so that you can re-site it closer to the blade. This should be almost invisible if you do it right. All you will see is the brass ends on the outside of the plane.

Do you think that the plane even needs a cap iron? It looks like a 3/16" thick Hock?

The fourth is to chisel away some of the escapement, but I would do this last. I am not convinced yours needs it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Kent]

Thank you Derek.

I just tried a shallower angle wedge - good.

I made the wooden pin a little thinner - good.

I took just a little off of the escapement ramp, near the mouth. It was stuffing up right at the tip of the blade - good.

I have achieved shavings that spin up over the top of the plane. As the judge's insane dad used to say on "Night Court", "I'm feeling much better now!"

I think I will go for the brass rod. It would let me get closer to the blade and leave more space. I'll wait until after the weekend because I have some 3/16" rod and David DeCristoforo (fun name to type) recommends 1/4".

When that is done, I think I can do without the cap iron with the closer rod.

Brian

[Brian Kent]

I just got some fine shavings and a straight board. I set the blade in place with the wedge just pushed into place. Then I let the blade down until it touched and tapped the wedge into place.

It worked once. The plane is training me or taming me or something like that.

I'll still try the brass rod.

[Chuck Hamman]

Brian,
Love the plane. Good craftsmanship, nice lines and good proportion.
As I read down through the thread, I thought to myself, use the Hock iron. IMO you made the right choice. Those thin HSS blades are enticing, but I don't think you would have been happy with the performance in the application you have in mind for this plane.

Regards,
-Chuck

[Brian Kent]

I have the 1/4" brass rod and plan on making the switch from the wooden pin to the brass. The positioning question leads me to the next decision:

Do I keep the cap iron on the Hock blade or just use the Hock blade by itself?
Any recommendations?

Either one will be held in place by a wooden wedge under the brass rod.

[j.e.mike tobey]

Or, groove the wedge crossways, add threaded insert to wedge and use a thumbscrew( for wedge stability). HNT does a version of this with their brass abutments.( I received 20 pairs in the mail yesterday).mt

[Brian Kent]

Do I call you Mike, J.E. Mike. or J.E., or just "sir"?

That sounds like a very good idea. I am trying the same idea with a knurled screw on a brass bar. I don't know if I'm up to it until I start trying.

Where did you find those abutments?

[j.e.mike tobey]

"Mike"- HNT Gordon has their abutments in the parts and price list. At present, Terry is thinking a larger version. The present ones are best for the equivalent #5 and smaller wood bodied planes( just my estimate with them in hand). I have been working on collecting a data base(and maybe an inventory) of plane-making components from around the world.mt

[Chuck Hamman]

Personally, I say, "If it ain't broke anymore, don't fix it!" Save the brass rod for your next plane.

Wether or not you replace the wooden pin, keep the cap iron.

Regards,
-Chuck

[Brian Kent]

I took out the wooden pin, pegged the hole and installed the 1/4" rod. Then I looked at Derek Cohen's instructions for "Making Lever Caps and Lever Cap Screws in the Backyard":
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Making%20Lever%20Caps%20and%20Lever%20Cap%20Screws %20in%20the%20Backyard.html

I used a piece of scrap from the plane body wood instead of a coin for the screw top, and put the lever behind the brass bar instead of making side screws. Otherwise the same idea. I took a 3/8" bolt and epoxied it to a scrap of Padouk. The next day I sawed away the excess, mounted it in a drill, and spun it on sandpaper until I could fit the final ring - a brass compression ring from plumbing - over the wood and bolt. It was supposed to be a test fit but it's on there forever. I made the cap out of 1/4" x 2" brass bar, cut with a hacksaw and shaped on a belt sander.

It is much easier to control than the wooden wedge, not that difficult to make even for the first time, and rewarding because it's shiny:D.

Thank you all for your mega-help and suggestions!

[Brian Kent]

And a few more pics:

I told my wife that I was done, that it wasn't perfect but it was at least as perfect as I am so I'm satisfied. Then she said, "Oh no, honey, it's much more perfect than you are!":)

[David DeCristoforo]

As Cheech said in "Rude Awakening", that is "enormously groovy" Brian. I would only make one suggestion. Since the cap is sitting behind the pin, I would file a groove in the cap to allow it to "register" on the pin. And the only thing I can add to what your wife said is; life is uncertain...don't sip....

[Brian Kent]

OK, good idea David (about filing a groove as well as not just sippin'). It's finished but not done being finished for ever and ever. I am waiting to find the ideal location over multiple uses before I commit to one spot for filing. Meanwhile, I'm surprised how firmly it stays where I put it.