Face Frames flush to inside cabinet walls - any advantages - disadvantages?

[Daniel Hillmer]

Hi,

I am considering building my kitchen cabinets with the face frame stiles flush to the interior side of cabinet walls and overhang the walls by ¼ on the exterior side of walls depending on if next to an adjoining frame. So I was going to make the stiles 1 inch wide if next to a cabinet and 1.5 inches wide if an end cabinet (and therefore if the cabinets don’t line up perfectly I could shave a bit off the edge of a stile here and there to match up to the adjoining cabinet if needed). I plan doing a half inch overlay with my raised panel doors.

Are flush stiles (to the interior walls) recommended, or not recommended? Is it merely an aesthetic preference? Are there any advantages or disadvantages of doing it this way, as opposed to having the face frame overhang the interior sides of the cabinet a half inch or so and possibly milling my stiles a bit wider?

[Josiah Bartlett]

It depends on what kind of hinges you want to use, and how you plan to mount the door stops. As long as the face frames are wide enough so they don't look out of proportion, I don't care either way.

[David DeCristoforo]

Having the stiles flush with the interior walls can have some advantages. If you are using "euro style" hinges, you can have the hinges mounted directly to the cabinet walls instead of having to use "face frame" mounting plates. Also, the full depth of the cabinet can be used for shelving. But these are usually not huge issues.

However, there is also a disadvantage or two. For one thing, having the stiles flush requires very precise face frame construction. Also, most shops don't worry about having casework perfectly square as the face frame construction method has, by it's nature, some "built in latitude" which is 'compromised" somewhat by having the stiles and cabinet walls flush. Also, the joint line between the face frame and the cabinet wall becomes much more obvious and this can complicate construction.

Having the face frames overlap the outside of the cabinet wall is "typical" for exactly the reason you state.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Yes thanks,

I was planning on using a hettich door hinge (I forget the model number), it's the one with 160 degree swing, and I planned on mounting it to the cabinet wall instead of the inside lip of the face frame.

Face frames are made out of hard north american maple.

I like the sommerfeld method - the tongue and groove method he uses in his video and demonstrations at the woodworking shows.

So there seems to be no real problem then in doing it this way other than making sure I mill to precise dimensions and take care to make the frames square?

[Josiah Bartlett]

You can even go a bit further and leave the top and bottoms of the cabinets just proud of the face frame (on the inside), then you get free built-in stops for the doors. This works fine if you are painting or your plywood has thick laminations on the top and bottom.

[Daniel Hillmer]

When you say proud, do you mean to have the top and bottom face frame rail edges overhang a bit the plywood edge on the inside of the cabinet (I'm fairly new to woodworking)?

[Robin Cruz]

maybe a bit wider frame if overlap for more strength. Not a problem either way but be sure you get the correct euro hinges as can be made to grab the overlap or not.

[Jim Becker]

I've been building my cabinets exactly this way...inside edge of the face frame flush with the inside wall of the carcass. This lets me use regular frameless inset hinges and gets rid of that little area in the cabinet that is basically a dust collection point. All of the cabinets I did for the addition were built this way and I plan on continuing the practice into the future. Note that you have to be very careful with sizing and assembling of the face frames so that you get that exact flush result, especially when the face frame spans several carcasses. (Typical for me...I apply the face frames after hanging the cabinet boxes using glue and 23 gage headless pins)

I have not done what Josiah mentions relative to using the tops and bottoms as stops, however...interesting idea, although it would require edge banding to avoid exposure of plies with a typical 1/16-18" reveal between door edges and the face frame edges.

For uppers, I also have been using 1/2" ply to reduce weight which makes hanging them easier and reduces cost when I'm using cherry veneer ply. The spacers I use between them to accommodate the face frames add enough strength that the 1/2" stock is plenty strong.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Thanks all,


I’m not exactly sure what Josiah means when he says one alternative is to make the tops of the cabinets proud of the face frame, can anyone give me a hint here..

[Bob Childress]

Thanks all,


I’m not exactly sure what Josiah means when he says one alternative is to make the tops of the cabinets proud of the face frame, can anyone give me a hint here..

He means make the face frames slightly narrower so that the cabinet carcass is just proud of the face frame, which will act as a door stop.

My advice, as you say you are newer to the field, is to forget that for this project and just make them flush. :)

[Josiah Bartlett]

He means make the face frames slightly narrower so that the cabinet carcass is just proud of the face frame, which will act as a door stop.

My advice, as you say you are newer to the field, is to forget that for this project and just make them flush. :)

Yeah, that's what I mean. Sorry about the confusion.

[Daniel Hillmer]

Ah OK thanks for clearing that up - I'll take your advice thanks everyone!

By the way this seems like a great forum very active community glad I stumbled onto it!

As a sidebar, you might be interested to know a sales gal at a major cabinet dealer here in the Detroit area told me a while back that if I wanted the face frames flush with the interior cabinet sides, then there is absolutely no reason to get cabinets with face frames, and that the only reason to have face frames was if I wanted the style of hinge which mounts on the insides of the frames, and to just get a frameless cabinet instead (I did not know at the time I would build my own).
This did not make sense to me though because I thought face frames give extra strength and improve the looks, and why would someone want to base their decision on face frames solely on the frame – frameless hinge type preference.

The main reason why I decided to build my own – just about every one of the cabinet dealers around here - I'm talking about the major dealers - outlets - not the custom made folks - sells cheap particle board boxes covered with fake plastic veneer, instead of genuine cabinet grade real wood veneer plywood.

And if I want plywood, they tell me it increases the price of cabinets by about 40 percent which seems ridiculous judging by the prices they charge folks for particle board. Plus if you want anything built to fit your kitchen, instead of buying out of their catalog, you have to pay extra if you want the cabinets to fit the kitchen without losing any cabinet space. They use a lot of fillers and fake panels to make their products fit.

Plus I get to keep all the tools and have an excuse to buy tools - look at all the money we are saving honey...

[Chris Padilla]

Daniel,

I think you've got all your answers here. I just wanted to add that most of this is personal style and the types of hinges you have or have easy access to. There is no right or wrong, basically.

Inset doors on a cabinet are a little more challenging simply because you have to NAIL the dimensions dead-nuts on to get that nice even gap all around the door so most of us like to have the door on the outside of the faceframe. You don't have to be as precise.

BTW, I also prefer flush faceframe but you know it all depends on the project and its function along with the look you are tyring to achieve.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...can anyone give me a hint here.."

Like so...

88145

[Chris Padilla]

As a sidebar, you might be interested to know a sales gal at a major cabinet dealer here in the Detroit area told me a while back that if I wanted the face frames flush with the interior cabinet sides, then there is absolutely no reason to get cabinets with face frames, and that the only reason to have face frames was if I wanted the style of hinge which mounts on the insides of the frames, and to just get a frameless cabinet instead (I did not know at the time I would build my own).
This did not make sense to me though because I thought face frames give extra strength and improve the looks, and why would someone want to base their decision on face frames solely on the frame – frameless hinge type preference.

Frameless cabinets are a more Euro style of cabinet and work just fine. In fact, I made my bathroom vanityly like that. I simply edge-banded the plywood with hardwood to hide the plys and mounted the doors and drawer front over all that. Looks great!

I agree that a face frame will add strength but it isn't necessary if the cabinet is built properly.

[Joe Chritz]

The only real advantage is in mounting hardware. Minimal in hinges but substantial in drawer runners.

I off set this by planing for an overlap of just a shade under 1/2 plywood. Then I can glue/staple 1/2 ply to the back to mount the runners for the drawers and I am good to go. Doors still need a mount but with the Blum compacts it is easy to do.

Lots depends on the look/style you are going for. I'm not sure that an inset door with a beaded face frame would look all that good flush with the sides.

Joe