Backyard Deck Installation question

[Lincoln Myers]

Long time away from The Creek, feels good to be back.

I am in the final stages of planning my backyard deck project. We have removed our existing paver patio, and are preparing to layout for drilling footer/piers.

I have a large sliding glass door (8' wide) w/ a concrete step leading out to the old patio (soon to be deck). The concrete step is 6" below the interior floor level. The ground/grade is 15" below the interior floor level. I'm attaching a picture for reference.

Question is if notching the joists along that concrete step, attaching to ledger and resting those joists on the concrete step is OK. My deck will be at most 24" off the ground at its' highest point.

Thanks for any help or insight you can provide.

-Linc

[Mike Berndt]

I think if the step is solid and has not moved over time that it should not be a problem. Attach to the ledger board with some type of bracket/aka simpson strong tie and you should be alright.:)

[Josiah Bartlett]

Put a vapor barrier between the concrete and wood, otherwise it will rot eventually.

Your step may move if you put weight on it, even if it didn't before, because you won't be putting the weight centered on the ground contact of the step. I wouldn't use it as a load bearing member, just notch the joists.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

You can notch or attach directly but never set the wood directly on top of concrete....it will wick moisture like a big dog.

In your drawing....attach another ledger underneath the notched 2x for the most strength. You can rehead it directly to the step without any barrier whatsoever [vertical surface = virtually 0 rot].

When I attach to a horizontal concrete surface I use reheads and stand off post bases. I sent you my number in case you need more info.

[John Keeton]

Lincoln

I had a deck shaped nearly identical to yours, but elevated to second story level. I ran a beam from the house out, and ran the joists with the length of the deck. Depending on the length of decking you have, you may find it to have fewer butt joints with the decking. I haven't put a pencil to your plan, but it is something to think about. I may also give you a little cleaner edge on the angles and avoid some long angle cuts.

[Per Swenson]

What John said,

Use a third beam just before the step.

The reason being, your span and your local code police.

Per

[Matt Ocel]

Lincoln -

1, Once you "notch" a joist, lets say a 2 x 10 that then becomes a 2 x 8
and that lowers your span rating.
2, If your step is attached to your house via frost footing, then you can
set the joist "ACQ treated" directly on the step. Although in point #1
you may not make your span rating.

Solution -

1 - Double up the joist on either side of the step.
2 - Hang a header from double joist to double joist at the rise of the step
you have now created a beam to hold your joist.
3 - Frame in over the step for backing for decking.

[Gary Falls]

A deck is a significant investment. Id go to home depot and rent a hammer drill for $25 an demolition the step. It would not take too long and all youd have to do is leave the rubble where it lands. Then Id use at lease 2x8 pressure treated, not 2x6. You dont want very much deflection in you joists when a heavy guy walks around up there. Youre going to the expense of pilings, you may as well do the whole thing right.

[Dave Falkenstein]

I agree with Gary and Matt - figure out a way to eliminate or work around the step. Notching joists is not a good way to go.

The sizing and spacing of joists is a matter of local code. I suspect 2X6 is too small. I would imagine 2X8 is minimum and you might need 2X10 to handle the joist spans and spacing. Of course, if you use smaller spacing, like 12" OC, then smaller joists will work out. Have your local building permit folks run the calculation - they can tell you what combination of joist size and spacing will satisfy the building code.

[Brian Ross]

Building on top of step is playing with fire. If the step is sitting on a floating pad you would be surprised how much they can rise and fall when the frost comes onto the scene, hence the name floating pad. As someone else mentioned the notch reduces the joist size to what ever the width of notch is. Unable to figure out the size of joist but for 11 ft span I would use a 2x10 on 24 inch centers. If you are using the stuff they sell as decking lumber 5/4 which is actually 1 inch thick then you are stuck with 16 inch centers. Our local code will actually allow you to span 12 ft with a 2x8 but I find that a bit soft even on 16 inch centers. On the 11 ft span of joists I always add solid blocking in the middle. This really stiffens the deck.Get rid of the step.

Brian

[Kurt Bird]

Lincoln,
There is another solution. On either side of the step, double up your joists, and use double hangers at the ledger board. Then, install a double joist between the first two pairs out in front of the step, and double hanger each end of it. Make sure it is not more than 24" away from the ledger. This way you can use 2x4 joists, or a ripped down 2x6, from the header joist to the house. Make it as big as possible, with no notch, and no touching the step. Run your normal joists to the header joist. BTW, the normal rule of thumb is that your joists should be sized that for every foot of span, it should be 1" of joist height. In other words, a 2x6 is ok for an six foot span. If you build with that rule in mind, you should end up with a deck with very little bounce. Good luck!
Kurt

[Lincoln Myers]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I have decided to build the deck w/out the ledger board (free standing) and put another beam in front of the step. Please see my crude drawing as explanation. The over hang on the beam to the house is 16" everywhere except in front of the step where it it 26".

I will be digging 12" side holes 42" deep to pour footings into sonatubes and use 6x6 posts sitting in simpson brackets bolted to cement footings.

My only question is if the joist overhang over the beam towards the house is allowed or up to code being 26".

[Matt Ocel]

Lincoln -
You are adding additional costs by not attatching it to your house via ledger by adding more footings.

As Kurt and myself said all you have to do is double up on either side of your step and add a 2 ply header.

I can't read your dimensions on your plan or I could calculate joist size. I would also need footing locations.
I could easily calculate footing size also.

P.S. Most codes allow 24" max cantilever.

[Alan Lilly]

I would use a ledger.
I would remove the concrete.
The concrete is close to your house and that can minimize the winter heave... but it my experience concrete will heave .5"-.75" during the winter in Detroit / Chicago latitude.

If re-engineered properly, you should be able to almost cut the number of posts in your diagram in half... I think you have more than you need with 13.
I only needed 2 posts for my smaller but TALLER deck with ledger and it's rock solid.

http://home.comcast.net/~panofish/WEBLOG/2007-01-05_My_Shed/index.html

[Jake Helmboldt]

The "added cost" of a few more footings to make it free-standing is minimal, and besides it is offset by the time and material savings in flashing, ledger board, fastners, etc to attach it properly. Plus it eliminates the potential problems created by attaching it (water damage down the road). With a low deck like that there is no reason (IMO) to use a ledger.

[Matt Ocel]

The "added cost" of a few more footings to make it free-standing is minimal, and besides it is offset by the time and material savings in flashing, ledger board, fastners, etc to attach it properly. Plus it eliminates the potential problems created by attaching it (water damage down the road). With a low deck like that there is no reason (IMO) to use a ledger.

Up here in the Northland -
I charge $150.00 per footing - Auger and concrete, column extra.
No way would ledger, flashing, fasteners off set cost.

BTW - Up here there is no such thing as a free standing deck on a residential home.

It sure is a different world us people in the Northland live in!

[Gary Lange]

If you would just remove the step your project will become a work of art. If you leave that step in it will end up causing you untold problems. It will rise in the winter and fall in the summer and just be a mess. Save yourself this nightmare now by removing it and building the deck the right way. You'll be glad you did in the long run.

[Per Swenson]

Matt,

Around here and in other parts of the country where

property taxes are at the extortionate level, a free

standing deck is not accessed as a increase of actual home footage.

Per

[Matt Ocel]

Per -
I knew there had to be a logical explanation. "The Government";)

[John Morrison60]

Lincoln
I would use the ledger to ensure you do not have settling near the house.
I built a deck without attaching it to the house, much like you are suggesting.
You are putting those posts on previously excavated earth, and it will settle.
My deck settled about 1.5 - 2 inches over 10 years. It was quite painful to
tear off the decking, correct the structure, and then redeck it.

Good luck
John

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I use ledgers practically every time I build a deck and have never had a problem even in our soil which is very prone to movement. What I have found is that the ledger prevents the deck from floating up or down as much and actually stabilizes the movement it does make.

[Ted Jay]

Matt,

Around here and in other parts of the country where

property taxes are at the extortionate level, a free

standing deck is not accessed as a increase of actual home footage.

Per

And most of the time if it is attached to the house and you decide to move it is considered part of the house. It will be included as part of the inspection of the house, and be repaired if any defects are found before the sale of the house.

[Steven Hardy]

Long time away from The Creek, feels good to be back.

I am in the final stages of planning my backyard deck project. We have removed our existing paver patio, and are preparing to layout for drilling footer/piers.

I have a large sliding glass door (8' wide) w/ a concrete step leading out to the old patio (soon to be deck). The concrete step is 6" below the interior floor level. The ground/grade is 15" below the interior floor level. I'm attaching a picture for reference.

Question is if notching the joists along that concrete step, attaching to ledger and resting those joists on the concrete step is OK. My deck will be at most 24" off the ground at its' highest point.

Thanks for any help or insight you can provide.

-Linc

I know you didnt ask about this...but are you really ,really sure that you want the two outermost corners designed with the corners flat like that??? I know its probably a style choice..but the costs in usable space would prevent me from ever doing that coupled with the added cost to build it like that.

[Lincoln Myers]

Thanks again for all the thoughts on this post. I have some time to mull it over, as my post-hole digging did not go as quickly as planned. :rolleyes:

Sounds like a ledger board may be the better way to go. I think at this point, I'll either remove the step, or do the doubled-up joists on either side of the step route.

Question on the latter - If I double up the joist on either side of the step, then hang a doubled-up "ledger/beam" between them, would I need to support that intersection, or is that intersection hanging off the house ledger board ~ 14" sufficient?

[Matt Ocel]

Lincoln -

If I understand your question correctly - no support needed as long as you use the proper hangers.


P.S. I'll take bolting on a ledger over diggin holes anyday!!!

[Dave Falkenstein]

...Question on the latter - If I double up the joist on either side of the step, then hang a doubled-up "ledger/beam" between them, would I need to support that intersection, or is that intersection hanging off the house ledger board ~ 14" sufficient?

I have done several deck installations using a similar joisting technique to build a deck around a tree or trees. Why anyone wants a tree in the middle of their deck is beyond me, because of the maintenance headaches. Whatever, it's their deck.

I have successfully used single joists and Simpson hangers with no problem. Certainly using doubled joists would be stronger, and Simpson hangers (or the equivelant) are also needed. If you use double joists, I'd bolt them together at 32" intervals.

[Matt Ocel]

Dave -

With 2 ply applications I always fasten them together (typically 2x10) with 4 thorns (16cc) 16" o.c. and I try to show my nail pattern so the Inspector can verify that I meet or exceed the IRC nailing schedule.

[Steven Hardy]

I have done several deck installations using a similar joisting technique to build a deck around a tree or trees. Why anyone wants a tree in the middle of their deck is beyond me, because of the maintenance headaches. Whatever, it's their deck.

I have successfully used single joists and Simpson hangers with no problem. Certainly using doubled joists would be stronger, and Simpson hangers (or the equivelant) are also needed. If you use double joists, I'd bolt them together at 32" intervals.

Its a Frank Lloyd Wright thing!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Frank_Lloyd_Wright_-_Fallingwater_exterior_6.JPG

[Kelly C. Hanna]

OK....here's where I dive off the beaten track. DO NOT use joist hangars on an exposed deck!! That's the fastest way to joist end rotting there is. I've torn down many a deck that used them and every joist end was rotted and falling.

My system allows for NO toenailing [another thing I never do on a deck frame] and each nail or screw goes in at a 90* angle [the best way to nail or screw.

If your next support is within 6' of the ledger [as it should be using 2x6 joists], no other support should be needed. Also no need to remove the step, I build around them all the time with no issues.

[Dave Falkenstein]

OK....here's where I dive off the beaten track. DO NOT use joist hangars on an exposed deck!!...

...My system allows for NO toenailing [another thing I never do on a deck frame] and each nail or screw goes in at a 90* angle [the best way to nail or screw....


Around here hangers are mandatory to comply with the building code. NEVER use screws where there is a requirement for sheer strength. For example, always attach hangers using galvanized nails, sized for hanger applications.

ps - I have worked on many decks where rotting is an issue. The only time I see rotting at the hangers is when the deck has improperly installed flashing or no flashing against the building.

[Mike Gabbay]

Hangers are mandatory in my county as well.

Lincoln - I'd put in footings and posts as you show in your drawing. That way you will never have to worry about span/supoprt issues. It may add a few hours now but will be worth over building.

Ironically, I'm in the same boat - building/replacing a deck that is essentially the same configuration as yours. I'm making mine unattached to the house for the most part. Setting 5 - 6 more posts is not that big of a deal for me.

[Matt Ocel]

OK....here's where I dive off the beaten track. DO NOT use joist hangars on an exposed deck!! That's the fastest way to joist end rotting there is. I've torn down many a deck that used them and every joist end was rotted and falling.

My system allows for NO toenailing [another thing I never do on a deck frame] and each nail or screw goes in at a 90* angle [the best way to nail or screw.

If your next support is within 6' of the ledger [as it should be using 2x6 joists], no other support should be needed. Also no need to remove the step, I build around them all the time with no issues.


Kelly -

Where would you build an "un-exposed deck?

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Dave....you live in AZ where there is no moisture to speak of....I am sure that's fine out there.

Matt...under a roof cover of any kind [very popular here in Texas].

For everyone who has regs concerning hangars...if you have a system of either 2x4 or 2x6 'ledgers' for the joists to sit on, no hangars are required. These have to be lag screwed or bolted to the rim band joist. This system has superior drainage qualities in a moisture rich area [like ours since we've topped all rain records lately].

I've had several decks inspected [and they are code here if the deck is over 36" high] and never had a problem one getting the green tag. In fact, one inspector remarked on the 'sheer genius' of the idea [not my words] and said he'd rather see that than a lightweight piece of metal underneath the joist. He went on to say that the fact that is was bolted gave it ten times the strength of any hangar.

One more thing to think about...when they swapped over to ACQ, the joist hangars & post bases didn't switch over to the new design and hot dipped staus until late 2005/early 2006. So for 3+ years, deckbuilders were using NON approved hangars on ACQ lumber...hope all of you that used them check them very soon.

[Matt Ocel]

Kelly -

The joist hanger has nothing to do with a treated joist getting end rot. Its from a fresh saw cut not getting sealed. A joist hanger gives you 1 1/2" bearing as does the method you spoke of, there is no difference. Plus a joist hanger better keeps the joist from twisting.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

We'll just have to disagree on this one Matt. No one sealed end boards in the 70's or 80's around here and most don't do it now. I've torn apart plenty of decks without hangars that had no such end rot....sorry to disagree with ya but until you actually disassemble decks and study them for decades, you can only go by what you have heard and there are many wives tales out there.

[Peter Stahl]

I have a wood deck and wish I had pavers. Why would you want a deck, just asking?

[Lincoln Myers]

I have a wood deck and wish I had pavers. Why would you want a deck, just asking?

Our paver patio was small, 12x12, old and was becoming very uneven, it was installed by the previous owner. The area immediately adjacent to the patio on 2 sides was alway just dirt/mud from constantly being trampled by kids and dog.

We want a larger area to accomodate family and friends and to provide a nice backyard 'oasis' for hanging out.

-Linc

[Dave Falkenstein]

Dave....you live in AZ where there is no moisture to speak of....I am sure that's fine out there....

Kelly - The decks I have experience working on are located in the Flagstaff area, in the center of the largest ponderosa pine forest in the USA. How do you suppose all those trees grow there? All of Arizona is not desert. There was over 100" of snowfall at our cabin this past winter!

[Matt Ocel]

AAAAAAAHHHHHH! FLAGSTAFF, AZ

Thats the place where i'm movin to when I retire.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Kelly - The decks I have experience working on are located in the Flagstaff area, in the center of the largest ponderosa pine forest in the USA. How do you suppose all those trees grow there? All of Arizona is not desert. There was over 100" of snowfall at our cabin this past winter!

So as dry as your area is [except for rain and snowfall], you have a big rotting problem with local decks? I am very surprised to hear that.

I am from NM's high desert....15 miles from Cloudcroft...I know about big trees. The pines I planted this year grow three feet a year in a drought in sand....they grew 5' this year cause of the rain. Trees can be amazingly tolerant.

In comparison to many other places you have far less humidity and less rain as well. I never see thunderstorms firing over your head on the radar [which I check everyday], you should see the storms we get!