Small school shop needs help

[curtis rosche]

I need some help at my school, my woodshop teacher has asked me to ask you guys for your help. our school is changing the school schedule from 4 classes to 6 classes. the issue with this is that our woodshop is full already. the shop is only 1600sqft, and we already have 4 classes that have from 16-20 kids in each. we barley have room for all of the projects now, and they expect there to be room for more projects for next year when there are 6 classes for 3 semesters. the other issue is that almost all of the classes are going to be between 18-24 kids per class next year, this isnt safe, and it wont work with wood 1 kids because they go through everything step by step together. so the really question is what we need help with, is there any written rules, like how many kids are allowed in a woodshop that size, or anything, that we could use to fight the amount of students that they are trying to put in the shop next year? any help would be useful.

thanks

curtis rosche

[Jim Becker]

Curtis, I would think that the number of supported students at one time would largely be dependent on available workstations/benches as well as the anticipated time required for each student to have access to shared power tools. For smaller projects, less bench space per student is necessary but there still needs to be enough separation for safe working.

[curtis rosche]

we have
1 radial arm saw
1mitersaw
1tablesaw
1planner
3 lathes
2drillpresses
1panlesander
1bandsaw
1jigsaw
1jointer
1mortiser
2router tables
we have a couple of the basic things like drills, sanders, routers, but 22 kids in a space that small is to many. thats more than 1 teacher can help, thats when kids just stand around and start fooling around and then fight, get hurt or do other stupid things. what we really are looking for is if there is some offical law/rule/guide lines, for how many people are allowed to be in a certain space with powertools at 1 time. or if there is a woodshop union that has rules or something like that. this is because our principal is one of those acedemics who has no clue about anything in a shop, never worked with tools, and never will, and because he doesnt know , he wont reason yet

[Joe Pelonio]

You could contact OSHA, the Fire Department, and your state architect's office as places that would be interested in enforcing a capacity limit. I'd start with the fire department as the most likely to respond quickly without opening up a can of worms with other issues resulting from an inspection.

[Tom Walz]

I think I would get consulting help from OSHA or your state agency.

In Washington we have WISHA. Labor and Industries has an excellent consulting program.

I had them in when I was setting up the new shop. Their help was very valuable, it was no more expensive to do things their way and it got me on the 'good guy' list.

Tom

[Ben Cadotte]

doh, don't know any "rules".

But the first place I would go is the schools insurance carrier. I am sure they would have a large input on a shop class size!

[Scott Kilroy]

Is anyone on the schools PTA board on your side? Keep in mind that if you get OSHA or some other group involved it could lead to closing the program. Sometimes schools do stuff like this to force a tenured teacher out?

[Jack Mincey]

Curtis,
This issue is different in each state. I max my classes out at 18 for safey reasons. Our shop is just a little over 1300 sq. ft. with 400 more for storage rooms. It is a safety issue for sure. Their are all kinds of reg's about square feet per student, but they don't have to be inforced. I got a new Sawstop two years ago for the extra safety it gives my shop. The County really can't afford not to set up the shop as safe as possible. If your instructor approaches it as a safety issue the school system should take notice.

Jack

[jason lambert]

It 's great to hear a school that wood shop program is growing most are downsized and phased out these days. Tread carefully you bring up danger and usally the first reaction is to close the program fromthe school, parents and insurance companies. Maybe take the approach that the learning experance is not at all efficient because there is not enought resources or machines avaiable, leave out danger all together. It is the schools responsibility to provide an efficient envirnment.

Now the bad thing is it usally takes time for the changes it soulds like you are just stuck in the wrong class or year that is going to be feeling the pain. If the program get to crouded they will get a bigger shop. Maybe a potition from all the students in the class that usally gets some attention that they want to get the most out of there time and not stand in line for machines. Hope this helps a bit.

[curtis rosche]

this teacher has been here for about 6 years. as for expanding the shop, the shop is full, the only thing would be to expand and thats not really possible, because the parking lot is right next to the shop, and to go anyother direction would either take from the art room or the metal/agg shop. we have a well equipted shop for the amount we have right now, its just the extra kids will start to cause a problem, more things broken, more projects not finished. and to top it off they cut the budgets thisyear, and right now he barley has enough to buy all of the wood needed, if every one pays lab fees.

[michael osadchuk]

Curtis, a much better informed reply will come from a teacher/woodworker involved in schools in your state and, preferably, within your own school district, but.....

my guess is that "outside" regulatory bodies would only have binding rules regarding the physical aspects of the woodworking classroom - guards on machinery, presence of fire extinguishers, maximum "occupancy" numbers, perhaps air filtration, etc. - but that matters that relate to the "supervision" of the students would be seen as falling within the competency and discretion of the school to manage

my suggestion would be check with other woodworking teachers in other schools in the same school district and in other school districts in the state to see what "minimum" or "best practice" guidelines have been followed elsewhere in the same/similar situations
and
use their experience to write a statement of what safeguards or changes (eg. competent classroom aides) need to be made to maintain a safe classroom setting and any likely losses in instructional outcomes (eg. less student learning on machinery because of less supervision)

such a 'reasoned' statement would make the principal (or people above that person) realize that they would taking on the liability for decreased safety of the students they are legally charged with keeping them safe on behalf of parents; this is when they may become more "reasonable" in seeking solutions with the frontline teacher

your friend should be careful not to "personalize" the disagreement or "bad-mouth" the individual who may be making these changes when your friend seeks out the experience of others; act "professionally"

if your teacher friend belongs to a union, he or she should also seek their advice on how to proceed and sometimes the union can represent the teacher's concerns to 'management' if an immediate supervisor is unresponsive......

good luck

michael

[Bob Rufener]

The issue seems to be lack of space. Have they checked into portable storage units to serve as a place for "work in process" A semi-trailer often is used if that is a possibility.

[curtis rosche]

its not just storage space its the amount of kids too

[jason lambert]

Odd it is growing and to many students are taking it, but yet they cut the buget. Why, did the whole buget get cut with this recession? Have you tried talking to the shop teacher directly or the principal and asking him about your concerns? I have found it helps to go up the chan even if you know the answer already. If you go outside the school first the reaction could end badly. Again think about getting a potition going once they see how many are concerned it can only help.

[Jack Mincey]

Vocational classes or "Career Technical Education" what they are called now are funded at the Federal level. State and local systems have very little control on the funds. My salary is even payed by federal money. If not for this federal money the whole program would be in big trouble. It is called Perkins money.
Jack

[Bobby Hatfield]

Sell all the power tools, buy all hand tools, material for workbenches, divide them into four teams, teach them woodworking basics building workbenches for the shop, each student building certain parts for a bench, it must fit with other parts to make a whole. Next year sell workbenches to fund material account for new year. No private projects. Nothing more than smashed or cut fingers or hands to deal with on the safety end. The kids learn, benefit more, they will retain more and develop better skills doing the basics. Bobby

[curtis rosche]

the teacher asked me to ask you guys for help, he has done just about everything but go to the supperintendant, but before he did that he wants to make sure he has as many facts as possible so that it works better. he was trying to find something that limits the number of kids per shop size limit. as to the storage unit idea, the problem with those is that you cant watch that and the shop, so youll end up with kids smoking in there

[John Schreiber]

If they want to get that many kids through the program, big projects are out of the question. People will learn more and better if they use hand tools rather than large power equipment. That knowledge will prepare them for larger scale work later using hand tools or power tools.

Probably not the message you are looking for, but it is a solution to the problem.

[Peter Quadarella]

There's never going to be a strict limit on students per shop because of the many variables; every shop is different. To be honest, a teacher asking a high school student to ask an internet forum for information on this sort of thing is strange, to say the least. If the principal doesn't listen to the teacher's safety concerns, and the teacher is intent on going above the principal's head, his only options are going to one of the agencies/groups mentioned in this thread or to the superintendent. There's not going to be a document someone here will be able to provide that will tell the principal, sorry, you can't have more than 16 kids in your shop.

[Paul Johnstone]

If you do call OSHA or a government safety agency, do it anonymously and ask the question in a general manner. Do not give the name of your school. As the other poster mentioned, if you get the government involved, the school might find it easier just to cancel all shop classes than to comply.

I don't think the class size increasing by 4-5 students will be that big of a deal. Sure, it's not ideal, but it can work. I used to teach lab classes which were almost as dangerous as woodworking with 30 students.. It was impossible to watch everyone, I just had to go over safety things at the beginning of each lab, and I made the entire class repeat it after me (as if they were 2nd graders) in hopes of making them pay attention..

[curtis rosche]

ok thanks for your help guys, i thought there would be more but i guess theres not, this should help

[curtis rosche]

the other problem with the classes getting bigger is that as some of you who are teachers may have noticed, each grade that goes through is alot dumber than the last, and there for is more dangerous

[Ron Jones near Indy]

You need to get a copy of Modern School Shop Planning from Prakken Publications. I'm not sure when the last edition came out, maybe early 80's. It will have all the info you need and more if I remember correctly. Your state department of ed should have one or more consultants who work with technology ed, industrial arts or voc ed that should be able to help. I'll see if I can find my copy, I may "loaned it out" and not seen it since.

If you get more students than space allows it helps to have an authority of sorts to back up your opinion with fact. Then you should write the principal, superintendent of schools and school board (individually) pointing out that you feel that the class is overenrolled and the number of students presents a documented safety hazard. Point out that you have gone on record with notification and believe that they will clearly be negligent in case of an accident resulting in serious injury.

[Gordon Harner]

I would not recommend asking OSHA because they are a worker safety agency. However, I would try the state dept. of education. The state probably has minimum standards for class size and space or has access to this data. This situation does not sound safe or educationally acceptable. I question how any learning can occur in that kind of environment. Does the school system want this program to become a dumping ground for those students not academically inclined? What a shame!

[James Ayars]

Before going to an outside agency, your teacher needs to consider the consequences to his career.. I've taught in North Carolina for 20+ years and bringing in an outside agency would be putting a target on my back. With tenure I could not be fired for doing so, but I could be assigned a full schedule of horrible classes and duties that would make the job so bad most teachers would leave.

Our state has limits on class sizes but schools can get around them by requesting a waver. So in reality, there are no limits. I have taught chemistry labs with 33 and 34 students in a lab designed for 20 students many times. If I expressed a concern, I was simply told to do the best I could. In many schools, putting every kid some place takes priority over safety and when many math and science classes are running 30+, requests to keep another class below 20 tend to get little sympathy. Actually, a 1600 sq ft wood shop is not bad. I have seen several teachers teaching wood shop in rooms that were less than 1,000 sq feet.

No offense to your teacher, but I also think it's odd that he would voice his concerns to his students before talking to the administration and then ask you for help. Besides the fallout from the adminsitration for going public with a complaint before talking to them, I would also be concerned about looking diminished in the eyes of my students.

Good luck.

[Scott duprat]

Most states have standards that must be met, these are from Texas, we have the same in New Hampshire. There are recoomendations at the national level, but those are by professioanl organizations, not governmental agencies.

http://www.tea.state.tx.us/Cate/teched/tefacility.pdf

[Kevin Godshall]

Everything done here (PA), goes through the elected School Board. This is the 1st and only place I would go. DO NOT GO TO OUTSIDE, you are only asking for trouble.

We have meetings once per month, and anyone, citizens, students, etc, can bring up issues for the board to consider and discuss. (It is best to let them know ahead of time you are coming, so you get scheduled and not over looked.)

I would go, as a student, to the governing body and calmly and respectfully describe your concerns and remedies. If they have any intellect at all, they would look for responsible, respected individuals in the field and do a case study.

Not sure if this works outside of PA, but there needs to be some sort of oversight committee somehow, somewhere.

[curtis rosche]

well, we found what we were looking for, a state law that says, 1 student per 125sqft, we werent looking for help from an outside group, just facts/laws/rules, that we could present to the school board and the superintendant. after we found the site, we emailed the guy (i forget who it was) and he said that if we take the information to the school and they ignore it, and someone gets hurt, its on the school not the teacher, which is also what we were looking for. thanks for your help

[Brad Townsend]

I'm a retired high school guidance counselor. Until three years ago, I was responsible for class scheduling in a 9-12 building with around 600 students. I would never put more than 16 students into any industrial arts class. There were far too many opportunities for someone to get hurt and regardless of available space or number of workstations, 16 kids was more than enough for one teacher to keep tabs on.

[Chuck Saunders]

To be honest, a teacher asking a high school student to ask an internet forum for information on this sort of thing is strange, to say the least.
Two thoughts,
1. Keeps the teachers name from coming up on Google.
2. Gives an interested student an opportunity to learn to search deeper for the solution to a problem.

However I don't think I would rely on the discretion of a 16 year old. Not singling you out Curtis. 16 year olds tend to see all matters in black and white, the gray creeps in later posing as wisdom or corruption.

[Jerome Hanby]

t... would either take from the art room...

Sounds like you just identified your answer. Take over the Art room. If parents want to have an Art program let them start a private organization like all the Soccer, Softball, and what not. Sounds like a good program for the local YMCA. Government schools (not going to call them Public, because they definitely DO NOT serve the Public) need to be concentrating on reading, writing, arithmetic, science, and history. Schools that are also area vocational centers are even better since they add woodworking, electronics, welding, ... Once all those areas are working well and within budget, add art and music if you like. Until then, junk the violas and start building the workbenches.

[Matthew Poeller]

Curtis,

I read this and I was intrigued. In high school, not too many years ago, I was in a class that we did some wood working. We had the same problem. There was not enough room for all of the tools and all of the students and all of the projects. So they ended up changing the structure of the classes around a little bit.

One of the classes ended up being called manufacturing systems. In this class we designed and built some end tables out of solid wood. Because of the space restrictions there were problems posed to the kids of how to best do things in quantity as if it were a manufacturing facility and work flow and processes. I thought it was a pretty good class because it gave a little bit of everything. I knew that I was not going to be a woodworker by trade when I grew up so at least it helped a bit with what I did become, an engineer.

We only built 8 end tables and at the end they were raffled off to the students in the class. So not everyone got a project to take home, everyone who wanted to was able to play with the tools, and there was some practical knowledge gained as well.

Not sure if this helps you out at all but I know that you were wanted to try and limit it so that there is more hands on but maybe you have limit the curriculum and then offer something like a woodworking club after school.

[curtis rosche]

we found a pa state site that says, 1 kids per 125ft, so that makes things alot better