Japanese chisels vs. cocobolo, with lots of pics [Archive]

Wilbur Pan

05-03-2008, 10:53 PM

I think that the whole japanese chisel issue can be summed up this way.

If you were to try to use a japanese chisel to chop a dovetail on cocobolo, you'd be up $#!+ creek after the first mallet blow. (much less lignum vitae)

I got curious after reading this in a previous thread about chisels. I finally had some time tonight to test out this proposition.

So here's the test set up. On the Japanese chisel side, a "delicate" 3 mm Imai bench chisel (oire nomi), about $50 from Hida Tool, which is the same cost as a 1/8" Lie-Nielsen bevel edge socket chisel. On the cocobolo side, a cocobolo bowl blank 2" thick. If you look closely, you'll be able to see how much I overpaid for this bowl blank. ;)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2355/2462497541_3fb5551bb0.jpg

I did a quick touch up of the chisel on a natural fine waterstone before starting. No chips here.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3078/2463331296_441c32cfac.jpg

I sawed the sides of the dovetail.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2375/2463331226_c38776af26.jpg

And started chopping.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2166/2463331192_7c24d2523c.jpg

Close up of the chisel stuck in the cocobolo after a good whack. Notice that the width of the place I'm chopping is actually twice as wide as the width of the chisel I'm using, so I'm really doing twice the chopping I would if I were using a properly sized chisel.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2008/2462497227_9f9fc7f7cd.jpg

After getting about halfway through, I started chopping from the other side.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2096/2463331070_7a50884e6e.jpg

All done! Total chopping time was a few minutes, not counting the time I took to take pictures.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/2463330852_f1eceab0a3.jpg

No chips in the chisel after cutting a 2" thick dovetail in cocobolo.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2192/2462496857_c347cd98e4.jpg

Here's what I think is the impressive part. I took a scrap piece of pine, and did some endgrain paring with this chisel, without any additional sharpening.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2096/2462496795_3f980762dc.jpg

So hopefully this will put to rest the question of whether a Japanese chisel can be used with very hard woods.

Dan Barr

05-03-2008, 11:02 PM

looks like that chisel did fine job on a dovetail. but, is ONE dovetail really putting anything to rest here? What is your bevel angle?

Thanks for taking a look into this though.

Dan

Wilbur Pan

05-04-2008, 12:21 AM

I must be bored tonight. ;)

I didn't want to put more notches into my bowl blank, so I found some 8/4 white oak. Same 3 mm Imai bench chisel as before, and I still haven't resharpened it.

I chopped a bunch of notches (these weren't sawed carefully enough to call them dovetails). But it's good enough for a test of chopping ability and edge holding.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2182/2462711175_272ff45fb1.jpg

Again, given the width of my 3 mm chisel, I had to take 2-3 passes in each notch, so it was at least twice the chopping I would do if I used a properly sized chisel. If I'm calculating this right, the amount of chopping I did here is close to what I would need to do for all four corners of a dovetailed box made of 1/2" white oak with a properly sized chisel.

After I finished the chopping in the 8/4 white oak, I made some more endgrain shavings from that same piece of scrap pine I used before, which you can see. Again, no sharpening since before I chopped the dovetail in that cocobolo bowl blank. And still no chipping.

It felt like the chisel was slowing down a bit as I got towards the end, but maybe my hammering arm was just getting tired. In any case, the chisel was still sharp enough to make clean endgrain shavings in pine.

The bevel angle on this chisel is 29°, which how it came, and is pretty much the same as the Lie Nielsen bevel edge socket chisels. I don't use a microbevel.

David DeCristoforo

05-04-2008, 1:18 AM

"...no sharpening since before I chopped the dovetail in that cocobolo bowl blank. And still no chipping..."

Hummmm. Imagine that. But will it hold up in court?

;)

Charlie Mastro

05-04-2008, 9:42 AM

;) Well done Wilbur. It sometimes suprises me what lengths we have to go to prove how superior Japanese tools are to their western counterparts.

I'll just sit back and wait for the fallout now>:cool:

Actually there are those of us who use these tools and fully belive in the spirit in these tools if the answer is as simple as they are hand made by an artisian who puts his time, love , and pride into making these tools and I think that is enough said. Just look at other handmade tools like Mike Wenzloff's saws, Ron Breese's planes, Wayne Anderson's planes and the list goes on. I simply believe that you get out what you put in. When someone cares to put part of themselves into a tool they make it can't help but be a better tool than one make by machine only. Just look at a Stanley plane. It's just a kit until you take the time to personely tune and fet the plane into a usuable tool.:rolleyes:

Brent Smith

05-04-2008, 10:09 AM

Hi Wilbur,

Thanks for that demo. In all fairness to Dan, I think we have to put things in a bit of context though. You're using an Imai chisel, one of the better quality tools out there. I've tried using lower quality Japanese chisels on exotics and have been very disappointed in the outcome. I've also used Imai and Miyanaga chisels and been as satisfied as you were in this demo. Japanese tools, as with western tools, will only perform as well as they are made.

Mike Henderson

05-04-2008, 11:46 AM

;) Well done Wilbur. It sometimes suprises me what lengths we have to go to prove how superior Japanese tools are to their western counterparts.
What are the superior aspects of a Japanese tool compared to its western counterpart? I'm primarily interested in the physical (measurable) aspects of the tool (or use) and not the spiritual aspects.

Mike

Frank Drew

05-04-2008, 11:51 AM

Thanks for the report, Wilbur; it's consistent with my experience.

Frank Drew

05-04-2008, 12:03 PM

Charlie Mastro

05-04-2008, 12:30 PM

What are the superior aspects of a Japanese tool compared to its western counterpart? I'm primarily interested in the physical (measurable) aspects of the tool (or use) and not the spiritual aspects.

Mike

Mike,

I know from my reading of your posts that you will NEVER GET the spiritual aspects of anything! It's not in your nature. You are an engineer and I don't expect you to see life from the other side. The side we can't show on paper.;)

But Wilbur did show show you the physical aspects very well indeed. I just added my 2 cents for no added value what so ever.

Mike Henderson

05-04-2008, 12:32 PM

Mike

In addition to the hardness of the steel and the ability to take, and keep, a very sharp edge, I really like the geometry of traditional Japanese chisels, their shapes simply make for more aggressive cutting than any of my good Western chisels, either bench or mortise. I think the hollow backs have a lot to do with that; the tools don't "belly" against the back of the work, throwing your cut off.

Japanese carpenters like to sharpen their chisels with a very slight hollow in the middle of the edge (the opposite of how they sharpen plane blades); the purpose is to let the two corners of the chisel hit the cut line marginally ahead of the rest of the edge so that the chisel doesn't inadvertently pivot off the mark, however slightly. I never mastered sharpening that way, however; when I asked I was just told to concentrate harder :cool:. (Maybe they use the corner of the stone to work the middle of the edge a bit more than the corners.)

Frank - thank you for the info. The hardness of the steel is something that's been discussed here quite a bit. The issue is the tradeoff between hardness (and edge holding ability) and toughness (the ability to resist fracture).

I don't understand your comment about the geometry of the chisel - would you mind expanding on that, please? Perhaps you're referring to the hollow in the back of the chisel. Others may have a different experience, but I never noticed any difference in use because of that hollow. And all books about Japanese chisels say that the hollow is primarily to allow easier flattening of the back of the chisel. I don't understand how a hollow would be any better than a flat back in actual use.

The issue of sharpening is not inherent to the chisel, as far as I can see. It seems to me that you could sharpen either a western or eastern chisel that way, so I would not catagorize that as unique to Japanese chisels, but more of a technique of the craftsman.

Mike

Jim Koepke

05-04-2008, 12:36 PM

This is a fine demonstration of a chisel and its ability.
It would really be great if there were some examples of western chisels thrown in to see what they do.

jim

Mike Henderson

05-04-2008, 12:42 PM

Mike,

I know from my reading of your posts that you will NEVER GET the spiritual aspects of anything! It's not in your nature. You are an engineer and I don't expect you to see life from the other side. The side we can't show on paper.;)

But Wilbur did show show you the physical aspects very well indeed. I just added my 2 cents for no added value what so ever.
Actually, Wilbur was very careful to not make any gereralized claims for the superiority of Japanese chisels over western chisels. He demonstrated that he can cut cocobolo with a good quality Japanese chisel.

There's nothing wrong in appreciating spritual qualities, but the spiritual qualities are not within the tool, but within you. And because of that, not everyone will have the same spiritual feeling.

My objection to your general statement that Japanese tools are superior to western tools is that the statement only applies to "believers" unless you can provide some physical evidence. If you want to make such general statements, you should condition them to indicate that the statement only applies to those who have drunk the kool-aid.

Mike

Frank Drew

05-04-2008, 1:11 PM

Mike

In my experience, the tools aren't brittle; they're hard and tough.

The blade portion of Japanese chisels (excluding shanks and handles) is relatively short; conversely, most Western chisels have longish blades. More metal, yes, but that can also make it less easy to control your cut. Long is nice for turning tools, and mortise chisels to an extent (timber framing, for instance); not so much with bench chisels.

The Japanese carpenters I worked with explained the hollow as primarily for tool control, not flattening; they saw it as an aid to prevent the tool from being levered away from the work by the back. Like any hollow ground edge, it's for clearance, I guess.

Without having done my dissertation on the tools, I started with typical American and English tools but found a lot to like when I was introduced to Japanese tools. They're fabulous carpenters -- the best I've ever seen at hand work -- and have developed tools to match their skills.

David DeCristoforo

05-04-2008, 1:37 PM

Dan Barr

05-04-2008, 1:49 PM

Mike Henderson

05-04-2008, 3:01 PM

"...the statement only applies to those who have drunk the kool-aid...."

Hic.....

Also, it should be kept in mind that Japanese chisels are "all over the place" when to comes to hardness. Many artisan makers pride themselves in their ability to temper steel to unheard of levels of hardness. Then there is the plethora of different alloys, many of which are based on "secret" formulas that are passed from generation to generation which can affect the hardness/brittleness of the steel.

Toshio Odate, in his book "Japanese Tools, etc" makes a big point of the fact that Japanese blades need to be used for varying periods of time in order to achieve their best performance. He states that the steel may be way too hard and brittle when "new" but that, with repeated use and sharpening, the temper of the steel is refined in subtile ways. This all may just be so much more "hooie" but it might serve to explain why some people find these tools much more difficult to manage than others.

Om
I absolutely agree with you, David. I believe the best Japanese tools are those that strike a good (the best for the particular user) balance between hardness and toughness. And a lot depends upon the technique of the user.

I'm not opposed to Japanese tools. I'm glad we have the choice - some people find they are the best tools for their use.

But when someone claims that all Japanese tools are superior to all western tools, my skepticism alarm goes off.

Mike

Grant Vanbokklen

05-04-2008, 3:02 PM

How about a magnified shot of the cutting edge? :cool:

If I'm not mistaken I think I already see some deterioration in the cutting edge in this shot:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2096/2462496795_3f980762dc.jpg

David DeCristoforo

05-04-2008, 3:07 PM

Hey Dan... I hope you can take some "good natured ribbing". Here goes... It was your comment "If you were to try to use a japanese chisel to chop a dovetail on cocobolo, you'd be up $#!+ creek after the first mallet blow..." that started this whole thing in the first place. So Wilber puts it to the test and not only does his chisel survive the first "mallet blow" without sending him up "$#!+ creek", it survives the entire process. So then you come back with "...but, is ONE dovetail really putting anything to rest here?". So the guy goes back and chisels the livin' daylights out of end grain oak and you come back with "I just dont think its entirely fair that you only cut ONE "dovetail" in cocobolo and then went to oak." So now he's "cheating" because he's cutting oak? And not just any oak but white oak which is much harder and tougher than your garden variety red oak. Of course, I'm sure that in your shop where you make all of your drawer sides out of cocobolo and join them all with hand cut dovetails, you could put a chisel to a much more rigidly structured test. Sorry dude... you're goin' down in smoke here.....

And to Brent: Would your comment that "You're using an Imai chisel, one of the better quality tools out there." not also apply to "western style" tools? You are, in effect, saying that the "test" is not valid because the tool used was not a poor quality one. But a poor quality "western style" chisel would fare no better than a poor quality Japanese chisel.

Mike Henderson

05-04-2008, 3:11 PM

Wibur,

I appreciate the effort and i'm not trying to be a naysayer. I just dont think its entirely fair that you only cut ONE "dovetail" in cocobolo and then went to oak.

Dont worry about chopping more notches, it doesnt matter really. youve got a fine chisel there and that is apparant.

Thanks,

dan
Dan - Let me support Wilbur here. A good Japanese chisel, one that strikes a good balance between hardness and toughness, can do essentially anything that a good western chisel can do - especially in the hands of an experienced user.

The choice between the two is like the choice between LN chisels and Barr chisels - really up to the user.

My own preference is for a western chisel because I find Japanese chisels (at least the ones I've used) to be too hard and I don't like the handles on Japanese chisels.

But Japanese craftspeople have been doing woodwork with those chisels for centuries. If there was a problem, they would have fixed it by now.

I think every woodworker should try Japanese chisels at some time in their career just to be a well rounded woodworker. You may like them or you may not like them. I don't think they're the best for a beginning woodworker because I think they're not as tolerant of mistakes as western chisels (it's easier to damage the edge).

Mike

Dan Barr

05-04-2008, 4:05 PM

Youre correct David,

And i dont mind the ribbing. But taking the expression "after the first mallet blow" literally, does no good here. i should have said what i meant in that the harder edges are more susceptible to catastrophic failure (chipping) in woods like cocobolo or lignum vitae.

I didnt expect anyone to put an Imai to the test. but i dont mind that either. I would rather have seen one of the woodcraft japanese chisels used here. that would have been a different story altogether.

Nonetheless, Wilbur has rightly defended his Imai and proven that it is a superior chisel. not even my LN mortise chisels run through white oak that easily. now im thinking about getting me one of those Imais for myself.

if anything, the thread has helped reached an objective point about at least one japanese chisel. that is worth more than 100 posts full of banter and BS.

Now, how much do those Imais cost?

ciao,

dan

Brent Smith

05-04-2008, 4:17 PM

And to Brent: Would your comment that "You're using an Imai chisel, one of the better quality tools out there." not also apply to "western style" tools? You are, in effect, saying that the "test" is not valid because the tool used was not a poor quality one. But a poor quality "western style" chisel would fare no better than a poor quality Japanese chisel.

Hi David,

Either I wrote it wrong :o, or you read it wrong :), but I wasn't trying to imply that the "test" wasn't valid. I was merely pointing out that Dan's statement could hold true depending on the quality of tool used, western or Japanese. The fact that Wilbur cut a dovetail in Cocobolo shows the opposite to be true also.....a good quality tool is a good quality tool in either western or Japanese style. As a matter of fact, I'm currently building a box from Cocobolo and using my Imai sword steel chisels to do it.....they cut like butter through the wood.

David DeCristoforo

05-04-2008, 4:56 PM

"...a good quality tool is a good quality tool in either western or Japanese style..."

I'm "wit chew" on that.....

"Now, how much do those Imais cost?"

"Fujihiro" chisels by Chutaro Imai here:
http://www.hidatool.com/shop/shop.html

Actually, these are very reasonably priced for a Japanese "artisan made" chisel at around five hundred (gag) for a set of ten.

Brent Smith

05-04-2008, 5:04 PM

David DeCristoforo

05-04-2008, 6:02 PM

"The sword steel chisels were a bit more expensive..."

The chisels I have would cost considerably more also. But the ones Hida sells are a good "compromise" between quality and price.

Wilbur Pan

05-04-2008, 7:40 PM

How about a magnified shot of the cutting edge? :cool:

Ask and ye shall receive. ;)

This is what the front and back of the chisel looks like after chopping the cocobolo and the white oak. Still haven't resharpened it yet.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2349/2465684298_10139b4656.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2030/2464853483_285c13d9f1.jpg

The "deterioration in the cutting edge" in the photo you pointed out is really wood dust that caused a weird reflection. You can see that the vast majority of the edge is clean, and the only thing I can see is a tiny chip in the corner. It may appear that there is a small chip about a quarter of the way over in the second picture, but that's really a weird reflection. (It's amazing how hard it is to photograph a chisel edge.)

To the naked eye, it's really hard to see this chip on the chisel.

Chip/edge breakdown issues aside, the point remains that I can get clean endgrain shavings in pine with this chisel after chopping multiple times through two inches of cocobolo and 8/4 white oak.

To everyone in this thread:

The reason I decided to try this out is because on this and other woodworking fora I keep reading statements like the following:

"If you were to try to use a japanese chisel to chop a dovetail on cocobolo, you'd be up $#!+ creek after the first mallet blow. (much less lignum vitae)"
"You have to be careful with Japanese chisels compared to western chisels or the edge will chip, which then requires more major sharpening."
"I'd recommend the older western chisels and the LN chisels before I'd recommend spending the large sums required for name brand Japanese chisels."
"I don't think [Japanese chisels are] the best for a beginning woodworker because I think they're not as tolerant of mistakes as western chisels (it's easier to damage the edge)."

I'm not trying to single anyone out, which is why I anonymized the quotes. But I think that there is a great deal of misinformation about Japanese tools and their capabilities.

It is a misperception that Japanese tools are only useful for softwoods. Much woodworking in Japan was done with softwoods. But a significant amount of woodworking was done in hardwood as well. Case in point: the bodies of Japanese planes are almost exclusively made of Japanese white oak. The same chisels were used to chop out the opening of these wooden plane bodies as were used on softwoods. A search of antique Japanese furniture will turn up pieces made with keyaki (zelkova), and chestnut (kuri), both of which are hardwoods.

It is also a misperception that Japanese chisels are prone to chipping. This statement is no more true than saying, "Western chisels roll their edge all the time." Once you get into an adequate level of quality in Japanese chisels, the chipping issue goes away. And no, I don't count the Grizzly or Woodcraft Japanese chisel sets as an adequate level of quality for Japanese chisels, any more than I would consider Grizzly or Woodcraft house brand western chisels as an adequate representation of quality for western chisels. Hopefully this demo puts that issue to rest.

It is also a misperception that quality Japanese tools have to be super expensive. The Imai chisels that I use, at $50-55 each in the 1" or less sizes, are definitely competitive in price to Lie-Nielsen bevel edge socket chisels, which are $50 each except for the 1" size which is $65. (1" is the largest LN chisel available.) The set of 5 LN bevel edge socket chisels (1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 3/4") goes for $250. A set of 5 Imai chisels in the same sizes is $258.30. There are more expensive Japanese chisels out there, but you don't need them to get good performance.

I do think that Japanese chisels are good for the beginner. If it's okay to recommend LN chisels for a beginner, it's also okay to recommend Imai chisels for the beginner, since the cost is the same. The big advantages that I see with Japanese chisels (specifically my Imai chisels) are:

You don't have to learn how to sharpen a microbevel to get excellent results, which means that you can stop relying on jigs for sharpening.
The relatively larger bevel area on a Japanese chisel compared to western chisels also makes freehand sharpening easier than with western chisels.
Although the Japanese steels used in the cutting layer are very hard, with waterstones they are as easy or easier to sharpen than the A2 chisels I've run across, including the Lie-Nielsens.
I haven't found the western chisel yet that has the same edge edurance that I have with my Imai chisels.

Finally, I don't understand the issue of using my Imai chisels as a test subject, in the "Well, of course this chisel did so well -- it's an Imai chisel, after all!" sense. This chisel costs $49.20 today, same as a Lie-Nielsen 1/8" bench chisel. In addition, this chisel is actually middle of the road as far as Japanese chisels go. It's not like I used a super high end chisel for this demo.

I don't get the sense that if the situation was reversed, and I had used a Lie-Nielsen chisel to test the proposition that western chisels can't deal with cocobolo because the edge would get rolled after one mallet blow, anyone would think that it wasn't an appropriate test because I used a Lie-Nielsen instead of a Grizzly house brand chisel.

In any case, this test was fun for me, and I hope that it settles some of the misperceptions about Japanese chisels.

Mike Henderson

05-04-2008, 8:13 PM

Well, I was the one who said I would not recommend Japanese chisels to a beginning woodworker. I would also not recommend LN chisels to a beginning woodworker - I would recommend chisels that were significantly less expensive. The woodworking school I attended recommends the Marples blue handle chisels which can be purchased for less than $50 for a set. Beginning woodworkers have so many expenses that $50 (each) chisels are a significant obstacle unless the person is wealthy.

I also find that Japanese chisels chip their edges easier than western chisels. And based on the fact that Japanese chisels are heat treated harder, that's pretty hard to deny (the harder the chisel, the easier it chips). There's no magic in the metal - and if there were, other chisel manufacturers would use that magic also.

It may be that some Japanese chisels are not as hard and thus do not chip as easily - which makes them more like western chisels.

And certainly in the hands of an experienced woodworker, the Japanese chisel is less likely to chip. But put them in the hands of a beginning woodworker and you will have more problems. My continuing belief is that a beginning western woodworker is best served by learning on western chisels.

Mike

Wilbur Pan

05-05-2008, 8:40 AM

Hi Mike,

Two points of information:

The Imai chisels are hardened to Rockwell 64, so if they are not chipping, it's not because they are one of the softer Japanese chisels. For comparison, the Lie-Nielsen bevel edge socket chisels, which are made of A2, are hardened to Rockwell 60-62.

This was one of the first chisels I bought, and I would still consider my woodworking skills to be on the beginner side. I also wasn't too delicate in my chisel pounding in this demo (I finished the white oak part of the test in just about 30 minutes of chopping), so if this Japanese chisel isn't chipping, it's not because of any special skill on my part. In fact, I've never chipped my Imai chisels, but I have put some good nicks in the Marples set I have.

As far as initial chisel purchase, I started with the same set of Marples. This Imai was part of the second chisel purchase that I made. Looking back, I think that it's probably better for a beginner to get one really good 1/4" or 1/2" chisel to start with than a set of mediocre chisels. I only use the Marples chisels now as a beater set because I find that they don't hold an edge for very long. But I don't extrapolate that experience to all western chisels.

Dale Osowski

05-05-2008, 10:09 AM

I've never had a problem with the edges of my Japanese chisels chipping and I work mainly with hardwoods. When you are working with a new chisels you may have some issues with chipping but once you have sharpened them a couple times the problem should be resolved, same with Kanna blades. In my opinion Japanese chisels take and hold a better edge, they are all I use.

Dale

Raney Nelson

05-05-2008, 10:46 AM

Wilbur,

This was a very interesting thread - thank for putting it together. My disclaimer is that I have never used a japanese chisel. I own, or have owned, a set of Marples, Ashley Iles, 2 cherries, and Lie-Nielsen. SO I'm obviously not a water-carrier for Japanese tools. In fact, I initially avoided japanese chisels precisely because of the 'truisms' about edge chipping. I now seriously doubt that truism, not jsut because of this thread, but bvecause I've seen so many like it. For every bit of solid info (case in point) there are a couple of dozen of repetitions about the edge chipping. Problem is, I can't find much solid testing that bears the assertions that japanese chisels chip easily out. And trust me: testing only a Grizzly japanese chisel is, to me, no more useful than testing a HF western chisel as representative of all western designs.

Please understand, I do not mean this to be personal, or an offense - but I think it's important. Sorry if it seems to point largely to one person, but it cannot be helped here. Please accept my sincere disclaimer: this is not an ad hominem criticism. The original questioner is in no way shape or form the only person to make such claims, or even a particularly egregious such claimant.

But a statement was taken to task here, and disproven (One DT chopped in cocobolo will chip a J chisel in short order and elave you in trouble). Then the original statement was modified (well - one DT isn't enough) and disproven again. Then it was again modified (well, material changed), and still there is defense of the truism. FInally, it descends to 'well, it should have been done with lower quality japanese chisels' to the point that the intent of the original statement has been completely warped.

If the original statement had been 'the problem with japanese chisels is that if you chop a dovetail in ciocbolo, and then 6 or 8 more in 8/4 white oak, and use a very inexpensive chisel, you'll be in big big trouble'..

well, I think there would have been a lot less conflict.

I am not asking this to be contentious. But as someone who began their use of HT's largely based on info from these forums, I like to keep in mind the hard-learned lesson that it's often very very hard to know what advice to take, and what not to take. My question for those who 'disagree' with the results in this case, for instance, is: how much actual experience do you personally have with the tools you criticize?

There's nothing wrong in appreciating spritual qualities, but the spiritual qualities are not within the tool, but within you. And because of that, not everyone will have the same spiritual feeling.

Mike, I absolutely understand your point here, but I would like to disagree somewhat with your assertion: The 'spirituality' is not in the tool, or the user - it's in the unseen area uniting the two. It may sound odd to an engineer when couched in 'spiritual' jargon, but really it's just the assertion that there are some tools that perform better for some users, and we can't fully explain the 'whys'. We have all experienced the feeling of 'rightness' that certain tools have. Whether there's a solid engineering explanation or not is not the final test: the results are.

I contend that not only are the 'unexplainable' aspects of a certain tool important: it's often the most important thing. Find me a half-decent review that doesn't include somewhere a very heavy emphasis on 'you really have to try this tool to know how it works for you."

Isn't that the same as saying 'the spiritual aspects' - or the combination of tool and user - is in fact the MOST important aspect of any tool?

edit to add: Thanks all for a very interesting discussion.

Wilbur: I note with interest that we live fairly close to one another. I live in Flemington, and would like to some day have the chance to get some chance to see your tools. Maybe we could do a day of 'east and west' tool comparing?

Dan Racette

05-05-2008, 11:23 AM

Ask and ye shall receive. ;)

This is what the front and back of the chisel looks like after chopping the cocobolo and the white oak. Still haven't resharpened it yet.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2349/2465684298_10139b4656.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2030/2464853483_285c13d9f1.jpg

The "deterioration in the cutting edge" in the photo you pointed out is really wood dust that caused a weird reflection. You can see that the vast majority of the edge is clean, and the only thing I can see is a tiny chip in the corner. It may appear that there is a small chip about a quarter of the way over in the second picture, but that's really a weird reflection. (It's amazing how hard it is to photograph a chisel edge.)

To the naked eye, it's really hard to see this chip on the chisel.

Chip/edge breakdown issues aside, the point remains that I can get clean endgrain shavings in pine with this chisel after chopping multiple times through two inches of cocobolo and 8/4 white oak.

To everyone in this thread:

The reason I decided to try this out is because on this and other woodworking fora I keep reading statements like the following:

"If you were to try to use a japanese chisel to chop a dovetail on cocobolo, you'd be up $#!+ creek after the first mallet blow. (much less lignum vitae)"
"You have to be careful with Japanese chisels compared to western chisels or the edge will chip, which then requires more major sharpening."
"I'd recommend the older western chisels and the LN chisels before I'd recommend spending the large sums required for name brand Japanese chisels."
"I don't think [Japanese chisels are] the best for a beginning woodworker because I think they're not as tolerant of mistakes as western chisels (it's easier to damage the edge)."

I'm not trying to single anyone out, which is why I anonymized the quotes. But I think that there is a great deal of misinformation about Japanese tools and their capabilities.

It is a misperception that Japanese tools are only useful for softwoods. Much woodworking in Japan was done with softwoods. But a significant amount of woodworking was done in hardwood as well. Case in point: the bodies of Japanese planes are almost exclusively made of Japanese white oak. The same chisels were used to chop out the opening of these wooden plane bodies as were used on softwoods. A search of antique Japanese furniture will turn up pieces made with keyaki (zelkova), and chestnut (kuri), both of which are hardwoods.

It is also a misperception that Japanese chisels are prone to chipping. This statement is no more true than saying, "Western chisels roll their edge all the time." Once you get into an adequate level of quality in Japanese chisels, the chipping issue goes away. And no, I don't count the Grizzly or Woodcraft Japanese chisel sets as an adequate level of quality for Japanese chisels, any more than I would consider Grizzly or Woodcraft house brand western chisels as an adequate representation of quality for western chisels. Hopefully this demo puts that issue to rest.

It is also a misperception that quality Japanese tools have to be super expensive. The Imai chisels that I use, at $50-55 each in the 1" or less sizes, are definitely competitive in price to Lie-Nielsen bevel edge socket chisels, which are $50 each except for the 1" size which is $65. (1" is the largest LN chisel available.) The set of 5 LN bevel edge socket chisels (1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 3/4") goes for $250. A set of 5 Imai chisels in the same sizes is $258.30. There are more expensive Japanese chisels out there, but you don't need them to get good performance.

I do think that Japanese chisels are good for the beginner. If it's okay to recommend LN chisels for a beginner, it's also okay to recommend Imai chisels for the beginner, since the cost is the same. The big advantages that I see with Japanese chisels (specifically my Imai chisels) are:

You don't have to learn how to sharpen a microbevel to get excellent results, which means that you can stop relying on jigs for sharpening.
The relatively larger bevel area on a Japanese chisel compared to western chisels also makes freehand sharpening easier than with western chisels.
Although the Japanese steels used in the cutting layer are very hard, with waterstones they are as easy or easier to sharpen than the A2 chisels I've run across, including the Lie-Nielsens.
I haven't found the western chisel yet that has the same edge edurance that I have with my Imai chisels.

Finally, I don't understand the issue of using my Imai chisels as a test subject, in the "Well, of course this chisel did so well -- it's an Imai chisel, after all!" sense. This chisel costs $49.20 today, same as a Lie-Nielsen 1/8" bench chisel. In addition, this chisel is actually middle of the road as far as Japanese chisels go. It's not like I used a super high end chisel for this demo.

I don't get the sense that if the situation was reversed, and I had used a Lie-Nielsen chisel to test the proposition that western chisels can't deal with cocobolo because the edge would get rolled after one mallet blow, anyone would think that it wasn't an appropriate test because I used a Lie-Nielsen instead of a Grizzly house brand chisel.

In any case, this test was fun for me, and I hope that it settles some of the misperceptions about Japanese chisels.

Wonderfully Said!

Pam Niedermayer

05-05-2008, 1:08 PM

...
I'm not opposed to Japanese tools. I'm glad we have the choice - some people find they are the best tools for their use.

But when someone claims that all Japanese tools are superior to all western tools, my skepticism alarm goes off.

Mike, we've gone through this before. When the only Japanese chisels you've tried are the cheapos from Grizzly, you can not speak about Japanesse chisels in general. This experience says only that cheap Japanese chisels don't perform well. Well, neither do cheap western chisels.

Pam

Mike Henderson

05-05-2008, 1:15 PM

Mike, I absolutely understand your point here, but I would like to disagree somewhat with your assertion: The 'spirituality' is not in the tool, or the user - it's in the unseen area uniting the two. It may sound odd to an engineer when couched in 'spiritual' jargon, but really it's just the assertion that there are some tools that perform better for some users, and we can't fully explain the 'whys'. We have all experienced the feeling of 'rightness' that certain tools have. Whether there's a solid engineering explanation or not is not the final test: the results are.

I contend that not only are the 'unexplainable' aspects of a certain tool important: it's often the most important thing. Find me a half-decent review that doesn't include somewhere a very heavy emphasis on 'you really have to try this tool to know how it works for you."

Isn't that the same as saying 'the spiritual aspects' - or the combination of tool and user - is in fact the MOST important aspect of any tool?
Raney - I don't really disagree with you but perhaps we have assigned different meanings to the term "spirituality". I have tools that I have the same feeling about that you described - the tool just "fits" me and works well. But I don't call that spirituality.

And I'm especially skeptical when westerners start talking spirituality about eastern things.

I have a number of old western tools (chisels and wooden planes) and I enjoy using them because of the connection I feel with the past while using them. I view myself a part of a continuum of users - I visualize the users of the past, as well as the users of the future who get these tools after I'm gone.

I suppose someone could call that a spiritual connection (I don't) but even if it is a spiritual connection, I would not make the leap to say that old western tools are superior to any other tools, modern or Asian, just because I had a spiritual connection when using those tools.

But in any case, if I'm describing the advantages of the tool to someone who has never used it before, I have to rely on a description of the superior physical attributes to convince the other person to try the tool. Trying to convince them that they will have a spiritual experience when they use the tool is a difficult argument.

Mike

Dan Racette

05-05-2008, 1:39 PM

Maybe it would be best for those of use who would like to be able to keep buying Japanese tools of high quality to have those who say

"If you were to try to use a japanese chisel to chop a dovetail on cocobolo, you'd be up $#!+ creek after the first mallet blow. (much less lignum vitae)"
"You have to be careful with Japanese chisels compared to western chisels or the edge will chip, which then requires more major sharpening."
"I'd recommend the older western chisels and the LN chisels before I'd recommend spending the large sums required for name brand Japanese chisels."
"I don't think [Japanese chisels are] the best for a beginning woodworker because I think they're not as tolerant of mistakes as western chisels (it's easier to damage the edge)."

Maybe then demand would stay low, and prices wouldn't increase, and those of us who yearn for them, could hope that the supply would stay the same and then prices would fall. :eek:

just a thought.

Mike Henderson

05-05-2008, 1:50 PM

Mike, we've gone through this before. When the only Japanese chisels you've tried are the cheapos from Grizzly, you can not speak about Japanesse chisels in general. This experience says only that cheap Japanese chisels don't perform well. Well, neither do cheap western chisels.

Pam
Could be. But here's my problem. The major advantage I see to a Japanese chisel is that the steel in the edge is heat treated harder than a western chisel and thus will hold an edge longer. I can't see any other real advantages compared to western chisels.

To the best of my knowledge, all Japanese chisels use essentially the same carbon steel for the edge - white steel or blue steel - the difference is in how the steel is heat treated.

Let's say that the Grizzly chisel is tempered too hard. The edge should be susceptible to fracture but if it doesn't fracture, the edge should last a long time because its so hard. But my experience with the Grizzly chisels is that the edge doesn't last much longer than my western chisels.

Based on my experience, it's difficult for me to put out big bucks for a chisel in the hope that it will be better than what I've experienced.

I'm absolutely willing to listen to arguments that would convince me to try a more expensive chisel but those arguments would have to be based on some physical characteristic of the more expensive chisel. For example, one can argue for the purchase of a LN chisel based on the steel that it's made of and the accuracy of the machining.

Much of the (high) cost of a Japanese chisel can be attributed to the way it's made (by hand) instead of by machine, as most western chisels are. So I would expect to purchase a western chisel for less money than an equal quality Japanese chisel.

Let me also point out that I'm not opposed to Japanese chisels. Many people like them and use them quite successfully. I've only talked about my experience with them.

Mike

[Added note: I have tried two other "brands" of Japanese chisels besides the Grizzly - don't remember the names but they were not $50 per chisel. I did not find any significant difference between the Grizzly and these other two brands.]

Raney Nelson

05-05-2008, 2:06 PM

... the tool just "fits" me and works well. But I don't call that spirituality.

And I'm especially skeptical when westerners start talking spirituality about eastern things.

...Trying to convince them that they will have a spiritual experience when they use the tool is a difficult argument.

Mike

Mike,

Perhaps you misunderstand me. All I'm saying is that a lot of the 'sprirituality' issue is just semantics. Your statement above reinforces and acknowledges that. I also agree that if someone is trying to convince me I'll have a spiritual experience with a certain tool, I tend to check my wallet too...

However, as I'm sure you would agree, the ONLY valid test of a tool is in the use and the results.All I was trying to point out is that sometimes we have limited capacity to explain the results in terms of physical properties. In these cases, people often turn to descriptions that are much less specific,. and in some cases tend to be couched in language that you might term spiritual.

It is an entirely different case when someone is seeing a property that isn't there. This is not spirituality, it is delusion.

Ms. Niedermayer seems to be insinuating that your only experience is with Grizzly japanese chisels... is that true? Because I'm sure you can see that this is a pretty flawed experience to generalize from, can't you? I think the lamination of steel, for instance, introduces many more possible variation than just harder/softer to the equation, doesn't it? And doesn't Wilbur's post go a very long way toward suggesting there is more going on here than Rockwell hardness specifications can indicate?

Mike Henderson

05-05-2008, 3:13 PM

Mike,

Perhaps you misunderstand me. All I'm saying is that a lot of the 'sprirituality' issue is just semantics. Your statement above reinforces and acknowledges that. I also agree that if someone is trying to convince me I'll have a spiritual experience with a certain tool, I tend to check my wallet too...

However, as I'm sure you would agree, the ONLY valid test of a tool is in the use and the results.All I was trying to point out is that sometimes we have limited capacity to explain the results in terms of physical properties. In these cases, people often turn to descriptions that are much less specific,. and in some cases tend to be couched in language that you might term spiritual.

It is an entirely different case when someone is seeing a property that isn't there. This is not spirituality, it is delusion.

Ms. Niedermayer seems to be insinuating that your only experience is with Grizzly japanese chisels... is that true? Because I'm sure you can see that this is a pretty flawed experience to generalize from, can't you? I think the lamination of steel, for instance, introduces many more possible variation than just harder/softer to the equation, doesn't it? And doesn't Wilbur's post go a very long way toward suggesting there is more going on here than Rockwell hardness specifications can indicate?

Raney - You make some very good points, many of which I've already thought about. If there's a significant difference between two tools, there has to be an explanation for why that difference exists. For example, if I was to ask the product manager of Ashley Iles tools why their chisel was better than everyone else's, s/he would have a list at least a page long. While some of those differences would be of questionable importance, they would be real differences.

Maybe I'm being too "western" but whenever I go to buy a product, my first question to the salesperson is, "Tell me why your product is better than the competition's". It might be that the product is lower cost, or it might be that the product lasts longer. It might even be that the company has great customer service. But the salesperson (or product manager) will be able to answer that question with some good reasons. In most companies, that list is developed even before the product is designed and built.

The makers might be too small to make up such a list, but the western retailers should have given some thought to the question and come up with a list. And some acamedic must have asked the question "What makes a Japanese chisel work well?" There's a professor who has spent quite a bit of time studying how the original Damascus steel was made and has published quite a few papers on it. Seems like someone would have gotten interested in Japanese tools.

I've had experience with two other brands of Japanese chisels other than the Grizzly but I don't remember the names. Neither was at the $50 per tool level. My problem is that I can't spend $50 (or more) per tool unless I can see some reasons why that tool might be better. That's mainly what I've asked people for. Mostly the responses have been what you suggested - try it and you'll like it. I haven't been able to make that leap of faith yet, primarily because I'm pretty happy with my western chisels.

Mike

Wilbur Pan

05-05-2008, 3:20 PM

Much of the (high) cost of a Japanese chisel can be attributed to the way it's made (by hand) instead of by machine, as most western chisels are. So I would expect to purchase a western chisel for less money than an equal quality Japanese chisel.

I really hope that you are not suggesting that in a "fair" comparison between a Japanese chisel and a western chisel, the Japanese chisel has to cost less than the western chisel? One could also argue that one would expect to purchase a Japanese chisel for less money than an equal quality western chisel, since companies that western chisels have larger marketing budgets than Japanese chisel makers do. In any case, it doesn't matter how a toolmaker uses the income from a tool sale, as the cost to the end user is the same.

[Added note: I have tried two other "brands" of Japanese chisels besides the Grizzly - don't remember the names but they were not $50 per chisel. I did not find any significant difference between the Grizzly and these other two brands.]

By "not $50", do you mean less than $50, or more than $50?

Mike Henderson

05-05-2008, 3:34 PM

I really hope that you are not suggesting that in a "fair" comparison between a Japanese chisel and a western chisel, the Japanese chisel has to cost less than the western chisel? One could also argue that one would expect to purchase a Japanese chisel for less money than an equal quality western chisel, since companies that western chisels have larger marketing budgets than Japanese chisel makers do. In any case, it doesn't matter how a toolmaker uses the income from a tool sale, as the cost to the end user is the same.

By "not $50", do you mean less than $50, or more than $50?
Definitely less than $50!

I absolutely think that products made by machine can be sold for less money than hand made products, at an equal level of profit. That's what the Industrial Revolution was all about.

Labor is generally the most expensive part of the production chain which is why companies move production to lower cost labor areas like China, India, etc. And each part of the chain has to be served. So Japanese chisels must be advertised, the sale must be made, and the product must be shipped. Trying to find savings in the chain is a standard part of the marketing and sale process but generally each part must be served. If someone found a much lower way to do a part of the process, everyone else would jump on that same technique and the advantage would be lost.

That's why companies make things by machine - because it's less expensive than hand labor.

No, I definitely expect a Japanese chisel to be more expensive compared to a machine made western chisel of equal quality. Labor is the most expensive part of the production process - and skilled labor even more so.

Mike

David DeCristoforo

05-05-2008, 3:54 PM

glenn bradley

05-05-2008, 3:58 PM

In my experience, the tools aren't brittle; they're hard and tough.

And there it is; saying Japanese chisels are better than Western chisels is like saying Grizzly is better than Powermatic. Each makes good and bad tools. If I use a poor Powermatic drill press or a poor Japanese chisel and a good Grizzly Table saw or a good Western chisel does that make all Grizzly or Western tools better?

There are varying qualities in most all 'makers' today and each persons experience will be slanted a bit on that specific experience. We all have probably been guilty at one time or another of letting one bad apple spoil the bunch, opinion-wise.

Raney Nelson

05-05-2008, 4:05 PM

Raney - You make some very good points, many of which I've already thought about. If there's a significant difference between two tools, there has to be an explanation for why that difference exists. For example, if I was to ask the product manager of Ashley Iles tools why their chisel was better than everyone else's, s/he would have a list at least a page long. While some of those differences would be of questionable importance, they would be real differences.

Maybe I'm being too "western" but whenever I go to buy a product, my first question to the salesperson is, "Tell me why your product is better than the competition's". It might be that the product is lower cost, or it might be that the product lasts longer. It might even be that the company has great customer service. But the salesperson (or product manager) will be able to answer that question with some good reasons. In most companies, that list is developed even before the product is designed and built.

The makers might be too small to make up such a list, but the western retailers should have given some thought to the question and come up with a list. And some acamedic must have asked the question "What makes a Japanese chisel work well?" There's a professor who has spent quite a bit of time studying how the original Damascus steel was made and has published quite a few papers on it. Seems like someone would have gotten interested in Japanese tools.

I've had experience with two other brands of Japanese chisels other than the Grizzly but I don't remember the names. Neither was at the $50 per tool level. My problem is that I can't spend $50 (or more) per tool unless I can see some reasons why that tool might be better. That's mainly what I've asked people for. Mostly the responses have been what you suggested - try it and you'll like it. I haven't been able to make that leap of faith yet, primarily because I'm pretty happy with my western chisels.

Mike

Mike - I agree that there has to be a difference - but I'm not at all sure that the differences are always readily identifiable. Particularly when there is a culture and language gap as extreme as the one we're talking about here. What I'm saying is that just because you haven't yet heard the explanation that works for you, that certainly doesn't consitute evidence that no difference exists.

I also agree that I would never take the sort of leap of faith of buying a set of chisels that cost the same as my LN's without good reason (read: either solid explanation, OR solid personal experience). Like I said, I've never used japanese chisels.

My primary observation remains, though (and no offense, but you're only reinforcing it) that the claim that japanese chisels are too brittle almost invariably seems to be made by people who have limited (or no) experience to speak from.

Conversely, I have seen the sort of work that , for example, CHarlie Mastro, Timberwerks, and Konrad Sauer do with japanese chisels, and have heard each of them claim the argument that they are far too brittle is simply bunk. At the very least, this has served to make ME quite skeptical of the claim that these chisels are too brittle.

Mike Henderson

05-05-2008, 4:46 PM

Chisels are just a piece of metal with an edge and a handle. People have been making excellent furniture with all kinds of chisels.

The comment I made earlier is that I find Japanese chisels too brittle (and I don't like the handles). My experience and opinion are my own - your experience and opinion may be different.

I'm not trying to convert anyone - I'm just explaining my experience, as well as my thinking about the prodution and marketing channels that chisels go through.

Mike

Mike Henderson

05-05-2008, 4:55 PM

Awesome discussion! Just one more 2 cents worth. Any discussion of Japanese hand tools has to take into consideration the significant difference between tools made by "traditional" methods and those mass produced in factories.

Traditional Japanese "artisan" tool making is almost ceremonial in nature. The "spirit" in which these tools are forged simply cannot be separated from the process. It is an integral part of the process. To the casual observer, it may appear to be just a lot of fuss but the blades so produced are of vastly superior quality to those made in factories.

Of course, this process also results in a higher cost. But in this case, you are actually getting something for the extra cost. You are not paying more because the tool was made using archaic or inefficient methods. Nor are you paying more because a "high priest" was involved and he needs to eat too. You are paying more because the tools are superior. The fact is that the traditional methods are actually quite efficient. The fact is that these methods are required to produce the superior results that Japanese tools have become known for. It's really no different than comparing piece of furniture made by a highly skilled artisan maker to one pumped out by a factory. Compare a Maloof rocker to one you can order from rockingchairs.com.....
Regarding the rockers, David, suppose you had two rockers that were exactly the same, but one had Maloof's signature on it. The signed one would be quite a bit more expensive. But does it function any differently? No, it doesn't.

Sam has announced that on his death, his employees will inherit the business. But they'll face the problem I described above. Anyone who wants a "Maloof" chair without Maloof's signature will pay a LOT less for it.

I could take your note about Japanese chisels the same way - that a buyer pays extra for the name, but the function isn't any different.

Mike

John Thompson

05-05-2008, 5:16 PM

Obviously.. this is a matter that must be settled once and for all...

FRIDAY NIGHT FIGHTS...
Gerogia Dome.. Atlanta, Ga.

Japanese vs Western Chisels
for the Heavyweight Champion-ship of the World

Barbed Wire Around the Ring...
Losers chisels will be incinerated after the fight at mid-field...

Pep rally to be held before the fight.. Western chisel backers in West Parking Lot.... Japanese Chisel backers in East Parking Lot

Ring-side seats are SOLD OUT.. but pay per veiw still availabe on the Chisel Channel... so act now as demand is high..

Ya'll have a good day and may the best chisel win! :D

Dan Racette

05-05-2008, 5:33 PM

Regarding the rockers, David, suppose you had two rockers that were exactly the same, but one had Maloof's signature on it. The signed one would be quite a bit more expensive. But does it function any differently? No, it doesn't.

Sam has announced that on his death, his employees will inherit the business. But they'll face the problem I described above. Anyone who wants a "Maloof" chair without Maloof's signature will pay a LOT less for it.

I could take your note about Japanese chisels the same way - that a buyer pays extra for the name, but the function isn't any different.

Mike

this is fun!

David DeCristoforo

05-05-2008, 5:55 PM

"Regarding the rockers, David, suppose you had two rockers that were exactly the same, but one had Maloof's signature on it. The signed one would be quite a bit more expensive. But does it function any differently? No, it doesn't."

That's totally true Mike. But factory made Japanese chisels are a far cry from their hand forged "artisan" counterparts. So it is impossible to make an "apples to apples" comparison. It's not "the same" because the tools are not of the same quality. If they were that would shed a totally different light on it. If all you were paying for was the name, you would have a valid point. This does occur with Japanese tools. I have a plane that many agree is one of the "best" ever made. But it's maker does not have the most prestigious name so his work cannot command the higher prices they might bring if he did. Comparing the maker of my plane with the maker who gets a higher price simply by virtue of the name... well in that case your argument would be unquestionable. But to compare these maker's work to that produced by the equivalent of an automated stamp mill? Not really a fair comparison. As one who has used both the best and the worst of Japanese hand tools, I can say unequivocally that there is an enormous difference.

David DeCristoforo

05-05-2008, 6:03 PM

Joel Goodman

05-05-2008, 6:27 PM

Although you guys have been beating this to death and I have no chisel to grind in this ( I have the AI chisels) I do want to take issue with one thing. To make a judgement about Japanese chisels based on the Grizzly product seems to me to be the same as deciding that Bailey planes don't work because of a bad experience with a brand new Stanley or Anant -- hardly the same as a prewar model. Laminated blades have been used in planes (by Stanley no less) and may have the advantages that are claimed for them. It seems to me that I would rather sharpen a small amount of hard steel supported by a lot of softer steel, not to mention the issues of protecting that harder steel from shock. For planes Steve Knight has been selling a laminated blade for his planes -- at double the price of the normal iron. There are some good things that may not be common here in the West because they don't lend themselves to mass production. We can all learn from what other cultures have developed in their traditions. After this discussion I'm tempted to buy a Japanese chisel to see what all the fuss is about -- $50 is not that pricey.

dan grant

05-05-2008, 7:01 PM

i enjoyed this discussion, it was civil, thanks dan

Mike Henderson

05-05-2008, 7:35 PM

Although you guys have been beating this to death and I have no chisel to grind in this ( I have the AI chisels) I do want to take issue with one thing. To make a judgement about Japanese chisels based on the Grizzly product seems to me to be the same as deciding that Bailey planes don't work because of a bad experience with a brand new Stanley or Anant -- hardly the same as a prewar model.
Since this appears to be aimed at me, I'll respond.

I agree that we have beat this subject to death.

Throughout this discussion I made a point of not making generalized statements about whether Japanese chisles were good or bad. I pointed out my experience with three brands of chisesl, one of which was the Grizzly.

I think I even commented that a Japanese chisel with the right combination of hardness and toughness could do essentially anything a western chisel could do. It is wrong (incorrect) to accuse me of making judgements of all Japanese chisels based on my experience with Grizzly chisels.

I would encourage you to purchase a Japanese chisel (or several) and try them out. All woodworkers should try them at one point in their career, just to be well rounded.

Mike

Joel Goodman

05-05-2008, 8:08 PM

It wasn't intended as anything aimed at anyone. I'm just assuming that in Japanese chisels there is a LN and Borg version of the tool. In the end it all makes me think of my son's violin teacher who when a student complained about their instrument would pick up the fiddle in question and make it sing with the comment "seems ok to me".

Raney Nelson

05-05-2008, 8:14 PM

I think we have discussed this to a reasonable point (though personally I really did not think it qualified as a dead horse...)

I jsut want to add that although most of my comments were directed at Mike H, I certainly didn't feel that our conversation was fruitless or argumentative. If others did feel so, they're free. FWIW I actually agree with the majority of what Mike has said, and hope I made that clear.

One good thing came from this for me - it looks like I may have a chance to get a look at those Imai chisels sooner rather than later...

Pax,
raney

Peter Quadarella

05-05-2008, 8:30 PM

Joel Goodman

05-05-2008, 8:39 PM

One last thing -- I looked for "Imai" chisels on the Hida website and I didn't find it. Where are they? Thanks to everyone for a lively discussion!

Wilbur Pan

05-05-2008, 8:42 PM

I agree with Joel, I'm tempted to try out Japanese chisels at some point also. Are there any smaller sets (4 or 6) at a similar price point that people would recommend? I suppose I could get them individually, but I was thinking about a future birthday :).

Well, if I haven't been more explicit about this before, if you're interested in trying out a Japanese chisel, I heartily recommend the Imai chisels for anyone, beginner or advanced. Don't worry about buying a set -- just get the sizes that you want. In fact, Hida Tool sells a set of 10 that actually goes for more than the individual chisels, because it comes with a handmade wooden box that houses the chisels.

Wilbur Pan

05-05-2008, 8:48 PM

One last thing -- I looked for "Imai" chisels on the Hida website and I didn't find it. Where are they? Thanks to everyone for a lively discussion!

Hida Tool is using a weird menu system these days, so you can't really link directly to an internal page. But if you click on Woodworking --> Chisels --> Fujihiro Brand Chisel, you'll get to the bench chisels made by Imai. There are other types of chisels made by Imai sold under the Fujihiro brand, including mortise chisels, timber chisels, which are closer in size to western bench chisels, paring chisels (called slick chisel), gooseneck chisels, gouges, and some other really specialized chisels.

Wiley Horne

05-05-2008, 9:22 PM

I would just like to second Wilbur's advice to Peter in regard to Imai-san's chisels. They're very good tools and also good value, given what traditionally-made Japanese chisels cost. They are not to be confused with a beginners tool that you need to plan on trading up from. I know at least two advanced practitioners--more advanced than myself--who use them every day and have for years.

I would also like to thank Wilbur for his exceptional post--exceptional because it is 100% data and experience. And thanks to all for a very civilized discussion.

Wiley

Wilbur Pan

05-05-2008, 9:49 PM

Definitely less than $50!

I absolutely think that products made by machine can be sold for less money than hand made products, at an equal level of profit. That's what the Industrial Revolution was all about.

Labor is generally the most expensive part of the production chain which is why companies move production to lower cost labor areas like China, India, etc. And each part of the chain has to be served. So Japanese chisels must be advertised, the sale must be made, and the product must be shipped. Trying to find savings in the chain is a standard part of the marketing and sale process but generally each part must be served. If someone found a much lower way to do a part of the process, everyone else would jump on that same technique and the advantage would be lost.

That's why companies make things by machine - because it's less expensive than hand labor.

No, I definitely expect a Japanese chisel to be more expensive compared to a machine made western chisel of equal quality. Labor is the most expensive part of the production process - and skilled labor even more so.

Mike

The horse is way dead, but there still is something about this that doesn't make sense.

Maybe I'm being dense, but I'll ask again, since I think I missed the answer: due to this issue of the cost of skilled labor vs. machine made tools, are you saying that in a "fair" comparison between a Japanese chisel and a western chisel, the Japanese chisel has to cost less than the western chisel? In other words, I shouldn't compare an Imai chisel with a Lie-Nielsen, since they both cost about $50; instead I should pick a Japanese chisel that sells for, say, $25-30 for the comparison?

I have to believe that your answer is going to be "no", since no other tool comparison I have ever seen compares price only in terms of the cost of manufacturing separate from the other costs of running that business, which leads to my second point of confusion. I'm going to use Imai and Lie-Nielsen chisels as an example, mainly because they do cost the same. By your reasoning, less of the price of the Lie-Nielsen chisel goes to the cost of manufacturing since they use modern methods of manufacture. Wouldn't it be logical, then, to pick the Imai chisel over the Lie-Nielsen since more of your tool budget dollar goes to the actual cost of the tool itself?

If your answer to my first question is "yes", well, I honestly have no idea how to respond to that proposition, other than to say that it's a really unique way of looking at tool comparisons.

Jim Koepke

05-05-2008, 10:09 PM

I'd like to thank Mike for helping to spark this interesting conversation and arguing civilly even though no one else spoke up to fight on the western side (;)).

I agree with Joel, I'm tempted to try out Japanese chisels at some point also. Are there any smaller sets (4 or 6) at a similar price point that people would recommend? I suppose I could get them individually, but I was thinking about a future birthday :).

I only have western chisels. They all seem to do a good job to a varying degree.

I stayed out because not only was Mike doing a good job at being clear on his observations, I have not had any use of japanese chisels to add to the discussion.

My 2¢, I have not paid more than $20 for many of my chisels. Sure, there have been a few less than great chisels in some of those deals. But most of them have become great users.

A new chisel is a great thing, but I sure like the idea of some of my chisels only passing through my life as part of their centuries long journey of woodworking for many a wood artist.

jim

Stephen Shepherd

05-05-2008, 10:16 PM

The old laminated Western chisels and gouges are ever bit as good a quality as laminated Japanese chisels and gouges.

Stephen

Mike Henderson

05-05-2008, 10:17 PM

The horse is way dead, but there still is something about this that doesn't make sense.

Maybe I'm being dense, but I'll ask again, since I think I missed the answer: due to this issue of the cost of skilled labor vs. machine made tools, are you saying that in a "fair" comparison between a Japanese chisel and a western chisel, the Japanese chisel has to cost less than the western chisel? In other words, I shouldn't compare an Imai chisel with a Lie-Nielsen, since they both cost about $50; instead I should pick a Japanese chisel that sells for, say, $25-30 for the comparison?

I have to believe that your answer is going to be "no", since no other tool comparison I have ever seen compares price only in terms of the cost of manufacturing separate from the other costs of running that business, which leads to my second point of confusion. I'm going to use Imai and Lie-Nielsen chisels as an example, mainly because they do cost the same. By your reasoning, less of the price of the Lie-Nielsen chisel goes to the cost of manufacturing since they use modern methods of manufacture. Wouldn't it be logical, then, to pick the Imai chisel over the Lie-Nielsen since more of your tool budget dollar goes to the actual cost of the tool itself?

If your answer to my first question is "yes", well, I honestly have no idea how to respond to that proposition, other than to say that it's a really unique way of looking at tool comparisons.
I don't know how to judge equal quality between a western chisel and a Japanese chisel.

However, based on economic theory, I do think a machine made chisel will be less expensive than a hand made chisel of equal quality (if you can define "equal").

Economic theory says that capital costs are generally less expensive than labor cost. A machine can turn out a large number of product in a short time, with a relatively small labor cost per unit. When a product is made by hand, say a Japanese chisel made by an artisan, with perhaps one helper, the cost of each laborer (a day's wage plus benefits and taxes), plus the variable cost of manufacture (fuel, materials, waste, etc.), plus the capital cost of any buildings and equipment (including repairs and maintenance on the building and equipment) has to be reflected in the cost of the items made in that day (plus a profit).

The whole concept of the Industrial Revolution is that an item can be produced at a much lower cost by utilizing capital (meaning machines) in place of labor.

What we have in western chisels and Japanese chisels is a similar contrast. The western chisels are made with more machine process than Japanese chisels so I would expect that a western chisel of equal quality to a Japanese chisel would cost less to produce.

There's been lots of study of marketing channels and the results are that the channel costs are about equal for competitive products at equal levels of sales (lower sales equal higher channel costs) in the same channel (such as retail catalog sales, or Internet sales) . There's a whole bunch of things that have to be done to bring a product from manufacture to delivery to the customer and they all cost money. You can outsource some of the channel (like using a distributor) but the function still has to be done and the distributor (in this example) will require a markup that would be equal or greater than if the company did the function themselves. When I say "cost" here, I'm talking about markup per unit. So the distributor pays for the product and sells it to a retailer at a markup that represents their cost, plus a profit.

So to answer your question, the result will likely be the opposite. If the profit level is about equal for the western tool and the Japanese tool, you would select a lower retail cost western tool compared to the Japanese tool since the Japanese tool has a higher cost to manufacture and about equal channel costs (at equal quality - if you can define quality).

+++++++++++++

And even though we've beat this issue to death, my pet peeve is that no one seems to want to know why certain Japanese chisels are reputed to be better than other Japanese chisels. I keep bringing this question up and never get a response. Perhaps no one knows, but if I was a real advocate of some product, I'd want to know why it's better so that when someone asked me I could offer a reasonable argument about why it's so good. "Try it, you'll like it" just isn't adequate for me.

Mike

David DeCristoforo

05-05-2008, 10:54 PM

Actually, the "Fujihiro" chisels are pretty much "entry level" for artisan Japnese chisels. Look at the "Funahiro" chisels (also on Hida's web site) which are closer to two thousand dollars for a "set" of ten. They also offer a Funahiro plane for $4,800. I have a plane that would probably sell for close to eight thousand dollars if I were to be inclined to sell it and was able to find someone fool enough to buy it. At this level, you are no longer buying performance. You are buying "art". And when you start buying art, all logic goes out the window and economic theory becomes irrelevant.

Pam Niedermayer

05-05-2008, 11:50 PM

...I think I even commented that a Japanese chisel with the right combination of hardness and toughness could do essentially anything a western chisel could do. It is wrong (incorrect) to accuse me of making judgements of all Japanese chisels based on my experience with Grizzly chisels....

It occurs to me that cheap laminated edge tools may well be poorer performers than cheap steel only edge tools. Why? Because it's harder to make laminated chisels. I have piles of old laminated western blades that I like as well as all but the best of my Japanese chisels, and they are quality western chisels like Addis, Cam, Swan, Winchester, Herring, etc.

Pam

Wilbur Pan

05-05-2008, 11:51 PM

I don't know how to judge equal quality between a western chisel and a Japanese chisel.

That's fairly easy. Take two chisels, chop out a bunch of waste (equal amounts, of course), and see which one retains the better edge without chipping.

And even though we've beat this issue to death, my pet peeve is that no one seems to want to know why certain Japanese chisels are reputed to be better than other Japanese chisels.

You mean something like, "You can take an Imai chisel and chop through 40 linear inches of dovetail waste in white oak without significant chipping and still have an edge sharp enough to make endgrain shavings in pine, which you can't do with the Japanese chisels from Grizzly without getting a big chip or losing the edge"? That statement would be enough for me to accept that Imai chisels are better than the Japanese chisels from Grizzly. At least it quantifies things better than, "Try it, you'll like it."

Actually, statements similar to that are why I bought the Imai chisels in the first place. Basically, at the time they were the cheapest Japanese chisel I could find that no one had negative experiences with, and the seller had a reputation for excellent customer service, so that's what I went with.

If you're looking more for what differences there are in the manufacturing process that makes this so, I won't be of much help. I do know that if you are looking purely at the end result, the differences are clear, and if that's the case, then whether the difference is due different processing of the white steel, differences in forge welding technique, or that the tool maker says a prayer to the Shinto gods at the beginning of the workday and over each chisel as it is shipped out, as long as you wind up with a better tool, I'm not sure it matters too much how that difference got there.

What I am sure of is that it's not the type of steel alone that makes the difference between chisel performance.

Here's another way of looking at it. Both you and I can start with the same amount of 4/4 cherry, and build a dovetailed box. The end product is shown to the members of SMC, and pretty much everyone will say that you made the better box because my woodworking skills are still pretty much in the sux0rs range. (Sux0rs means "godawful", for those of you who don't speak l33t (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet).)

No one actually watches us build our boxes, so no one can say why yours was so much better than mine, but the difference is clear. So we continue to make dovetailed boxes, and you keep turning out really excellent boxes, and I keep making hollow square pieces of firewood, and everyone continues to agree that your boxes rock, and wonder why I even bother.

But then someone comes along and says, "Well, I've seen Wilbur's boxes, and they just suck. I hear Mike's boxes are better than Wilbur's, but no one can tell me why they are better, and no one wants to know why Mike's box is better, so I'm not sure that one really is better than the other. After all, they start with the same 4/4 cherry."

Or, as I said somewhere recently, Jacques Pepin and I can start with the same chicken, root vegetables, and herbs, and I can guarantee that his roast chicken will be far superior than mine.

-----

Mike, actually, I'll be upfront as to why I keep kicking the expired nag, and what seems to be so frustrating to me. I keep hearing you say that Japanese chisels chip more than western chisels. I offer evidence that there is at least one Japanese chisel that doesn't chip easily in a test that seems reasonable to me. Yet you keep making statements like

I also find that Japanese chisels chip their edges easier than western chisels. And based on the fact that Japanese chisels are heat treated harder, that's pretty hard to deny (the harder the chisel, the easier it chips). There's no magic in the metal - and if there were, other chisel manufacturers would use that magic also.

as if it were a global truth, when in actuality your experience with Japanese chisels seems to be limited to a few low end brands. It's the apparent universality of your conclusion that I have issues with. Looking back on your comments about Japanese chisels, you rarely say which Japanese chisels you worked with, or what price range they fall into, which does impact the conclusion a reader of your comments might make.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating. The western chisels I have on hand are the blue handled Marple chisels. Easy to sharpen, and takes a sharp edge, but I keep losing and/or rolling the edge fairly quickly. But I don't go around saying things like, "I also find that western chisels roll their edges easier than Japanese chisels. And based on the fact that western chisels are heat treated softer, that's pretty hard to deny (the softer the chisel, the easier you lose or roll the edge)." That would be an unfair statement, as is yours.

Based on my experience, and the experience of others, I've concluded that paying less than $50 for a Japanese chisel is going to be an exercise in frustration. It's no different than saying that among modern day smoothing planes, paying less than $200 is going to be an exercise in frustration since below that price all you'll get are Anants and modern day Stanleys. Of course, instead of putting things in those terms, we tend to say things like, "You want a great chisel? Buy an Imai!" or "You want a smoothing plane that rocks? Get the Lee Valley bevel up smoother!"

I'm not trying to deny your experience with Japanese chisels. I do think that your experience cannot be extrapolated to all Japanese chisels.

On the other hand, I'd be real interested to see, if you have any laminated chisels among your old Witherbys, if a laminated Witherby holds an edge like my Imai chisel does. My bet is that the laminated Witherbys probably do.

Pam Niedermayer

05-05-2008, 11:59 PM

...Economic theory says that capital costs are generally less expensive than labor cost. A machine can turn out a large number of product in a short time, with a relatively small labor cost per unit. When a product is made by hand, say a Japanese chisel made by an artisan, with perhaps one helper, the cost of each laborer (a day's wage plus benefits and taxes), plus the variable cost of manufacture (fuel, materials, waste, etc.), plus the capital cost of any buildings and equipment (including repairs and maintenance on the building and equipment) has to be reflected in the cost of the items made in that day (plus a profit).

The whole concept of the Industrial Revolution is that an item can be produced at a much lower cost by utilizing capital (meaning machines) in place of labor.

What we have in western chisels and Japanese chisels is a similar contrast. The western chisels are made with more machine process than Japanese chisels so I would expect that a western chisel of equal quality to a Japanese chisel would cost less to produce.

There's been lots of study of marketing channels and the results are that the channel costs are about equal for competitive products at equal levels of sales (lower sales equal higher channel costs) in the same channel (such as retail catalog sales, or Internet sales) . There's a whole bunch of things that have to be done to bring a product from manufacture to delivery to the customer and they all cost money. You can outsource some of the channel (like using a distributor) but the function still has to be done and the distributor (in this example) will require a markup that would be equal or greater than if the company did the function themselves. When I say "cost" here, I'm talking about markup per unit. So the distributor pays for the product and sells it to a retailer at a markup that represents their cost, plus a profit.

...
And even though we've beat this issue to death, my pet peeve is that no one seems to want to know why certain Japanese chisels are reputed to be better than other Japanese chisels. I keep bringing this question up and never get a response. Perhaps no one knows, but if I was a real advocate of some product, I'd want to know why it's better so that when someone asked me I could offer a reasonable argument about why it's so good. "Try it, you'll like it" just isn't adequate for me.

Mike

Your equation only holds if the price of labor is expensive. As we continue our race to the bottom you can expect that labor will be cheaper than capital at some point, probably real soon now.

As to why I say they're better, I don't in any general way. I consider laminated, hand forged tools superior, because I've used them successfully and they hold their edges and take a great edge.

Pam

Mike Henderson

05-06-2008, 12:32 AM

Wilbur - as I said many times, I'm not trying to extrapolate my experience with Japanese chisels to all Japanese chisels.

My comment about the hardness of the steel is based on how steel works - as it is heat treated harder, it loses toughness. If the Japanese smiths had some process magic that allowed the steel in Japanese chisels to be hard and tough every other maker of steel would use the same technique. Japanese chisels are heat treated harder so they do not have the toughness "in the steel" as a piece of steel that is not hardened as much.

Someone could make an argument that the iron backing has some effect on the toughness of the chisel. If so, I'd ask for an explanation of how that works on the edge which is not laminated.

And if laminating, by itself, was the magic ingredient, any laminated chisel would be superior to any non laminated chisel.

What I see is that essentially all Japanese smiths start with the same materials but some are reputed to produce "better" chisels than others. What do they do that produces a "better" chisel? Or alternatively, what's different in the chisel that's "better" compared to the chisel that judged not as good?

++++++++++++++++++++

Regarding the problem of finding "equal quality" chisels, one idea might be to define some testing protocol (and that would be difficult to agree on), then we'd start running different chisels through the protocol. After we ran all the tests, we select a western chisel and a Japanese chisel that were scored equally on the tests. We could then say that those two chisels were of "equal quality". The problem is defining the protocol so that it doesn't favor one or the other.

Mike

[Wilbur - I have great respect for you, but let's give this a break. We've beat it to death and past.]

Mike Henderson

05-06-2008, 12:41 AM

Your equation only holds if the price of labor is expensive. As we continue our race to the bottom you can expect that labor will be cheaper than capital at some point, probably real soon now.

As to why I say they're better, I don't in any general way. I consider laminated, hand forged tools superior, because I've used them successfully and they hold their edges and take a great edge.

Pam
The cost of labor only affects which things can be made less expensively by machine. As labor gets more expensive, more items can be made less expensively by machine.

What's actually happening in the global market is that labor costs are rising in the traditional low cost producers (China and India) which is causing manufacturers to move production of items that require low cost labor (clothing is one) to other locations.

Also, capital is pretty cheap and doesn't show any trend to get significantly more expensive any time soon - unless inflation starts getting bad.

Mike

Dale Osowski

05-06-2008, 8:10 AM

What I see is that essentially all Japanese smiths start with the same materials but some are reputed to produce "better" chisels than others. What do they do that produces a "better" chisel? Or alternatively, what's different in the chisel that's "better" compared to the chisel that judged not as good?

Mike

[Wilbur - I have great respect for you, but let's give this a break. We've beat it to death and past.]

It all comes down to experience and technique. I know that a lot has to do with the amount of heat the smith uses, color of the flame and metal before removing from the forge. What the smith uses to fuel the forge may even affect the final product. I'm sure the numbers of laminations affect the tool as well and the rate of speed in which the material was formed, was it allowed to cool to much etc?

Dale

Dan Racette

05-06-2008, 10:55 AM

So, Wilbur, what we finally have here, is some solid information from someone who actually owns Japanese chisels that are from a named maker, , and has demonstrated their worthiness, through pictures and demos.

I certainly appreciate all you have done. Thanks for taking the time to put all the work/pictures together. Not to mention, sacrificing the wood.

Out of curiousity, how do you sharpen? Do you use a flat grinder for the bevel edge and waterstones?

Dan

Alex Yeilding

05-06-2008, 11:14 AM

Based on my experience, and the experience of others, I've concluded that paying less than $50 for a Japanese chisel is going to be an exercise in frustration.

Wilbur, could you tell me what problems those are, or point me to some discussion. I was thinking of getting a Japanwoodworker or Hida "store brand" chisel to try out a Japanese chisel. To my mind they are not "cheap" tools, and I would think that for their own reputation, these two vendors would private brand something significantly better than Grizzly or even Woodcraft. But neither are they as expensive as the Imai's you have. Why should I bite the bullet and try out an Imai or similarly-priced chisel?

Pam Niedermayer

05-06-2008, 11:33 AM

...Also, capital is pretty cheap and doesn't show any trend to get significantly more expensive any time soon - unless inflation starts getting bad.

And you have been living in the western world for the last year?

Pam

Mike Henderson

05-06-2008, 11:42 AM

And you have been living in the western world for the last year?

Pam
Yes.

Mike

David DeCristoforo

05-06-2008, 12:00 PM

Hey Mike and Pam... Maybe it's time to start a new thread? One with a subject relating to economic issues? We are drifting here folks.....:)

Mike Henderson

05-06-2008, 12:22 PM

Hey Mike and Pam... Maybe it's time to start a new thread? One with a subject relating to economic issues? We are drifting here folks.....:)

Yes, you're right, David. Sorry.

Mike

Terry Bigelow

05-06-2008, 2:17 PM

As someone who uses both western and Japanese chisels I can honestly say I have no dog in this "fight". However, I do take exception with one thing. I have a full set of Kumogoro (Ice Bear) Japanese chisels which I guess would be characterized as lower or maybe mid-grade chisels. They run about $27-40 depending on size. This puts them somewhere between the Grizzly and Imai (by price mind you). I have never had an issue with them period. In fact they have become my "go to" chisels as opposed to my AIs. No chipping period. Not to split hairs here, but to say anything less than $50 chisel is an excersize in frustration is not exactly accurate either. No, I don't have any scientific test nor do I have any insight about the spiritual aspects, I just like the way they work and have had no problems with them at all. Anyway, not trying to fan the flames in either direction just letting people know there are alternatives to the $50 level that at least one guy has had success with!

On a side note, these are the dicussions which make this place great, the civility in which they are carried out make it even better.:)

Wilbur Pan

05-06-2008, 2:32 PM

Out of curiousity, how do you sharpen? Do you use a flat grinder for the bevel edge and waterstones?

Basically, I just use waterstones. I have a Tormek that I use primarily for dealing with turning tools, but I also use it to take out a big nick in a tool, or to change the bevel angle. But beyond that it's just waterstones.

Wilbur, could you tell me what problems those are, or point me to some discussion. I was thinking of getting a Japanwoodworker or Hida "store brand" chisel to try out a Japanese chisel. To my mind they are not "cheap" tools, and I would think that for their own reputation, these two vendors would private brand something significantly better than Grizzly or even Woodcraft. But neither are they as expensive as the Imai's you have. Why should I bite the bullet and try out an Imai or similarly-priced chisel?

The problems that I saw with Japanese chisels priced cheaper than the Imai chisels when I was buying them had to do with chipping issues. At the time, those included the Grizzly set, the Woodcraft set, and the Matsumuras. I had read about people who owned either brand that mentioned chipping. Hida and the Japan Woodworker didn't have their house brands at the time, so I can't speak directly to those brands. I can say is that if the Imai chisels are in your price range, I think you'll be really happy with them.

You could always call up JWW or Hida directly and ask them. They have been very helpful on the phone with me in the past.

If you are going to have an issue with a chisel, losing or rolling the edge is probably better than chipping. If you lose your edge frequently, you'll have to rehone the chisel more often, which is annoying but still leaves you with a useable chisel. If you get a chip, the chisel's function is going to be significantly compromised.

Wilbur Pan

05-06-2008, 2:34 PM

I have a full set of Kumogoro (Ice Bear) Japanese chisels which I guess would be characterized as lower or maybe mid-grade chisels. They run about $27-40 depending on size. This puts them somewhere between the Grizzly and Imai (by price mind you). I have never had an issue with them period. In fact they have become my "go to" chisels as opposed to my AIs. No chipping period. Not to split hairs here, but to say anything less than $50 chisel is an excersize in frustration is not exactly accurate either.

I didn't know about these chisels back when I was shopping, but I'm happy to be proven wrong about my previous statement. ;)

Brent Smith

05-06-2008, 2:52 PM

Hi Wilbur,

I'm having a bit of a problem following your train of thought here. In one post you say;

"Finally, I don't understand the issue of using my Imai chisels as a test subject, in the "Well, of course this chisel did so well -- it's an Imai chisel, after all."

And then in another post you say;

"The problems that I saw with Japanese chisels priced cheaper than the Imai chisels when I was buying them had to do with chipping issues. At the time, those included the Grizzly set, the Woodcraft set, and the Matsumuras. I had read about people who owned either brand that mentioned chipping."

It seems that you are giving your own reason why using Imai's would be considered a factor in your testing. It is a fact that lesser quality tools of both east and west will not perform up to standard. My own experience with both cheap and expensive Japanese and western chisels shows me that it's not a question of whether Japanese chisels can perform, but rather at what quality point will any chisel perform well on Cocobolo or any other wood.

Mike Henderson

05-06-2008, 3:01 PM

Wilbur, could you tell me what problems those are, or point me to some discussion. I was thinking of getting a Japanwoodworker or Hida "store brand" chisel to try out a Japanese chisel. To my mind they are not "cheap" tools, and I would think that for their own reputation, these two vendors would private brand something significantly better than Grizzly or even Woodcraft. But neither are they as expensive as the Imai's you have. Why should I bite the bullet and try out an Imai or similarly-priced chisel?
One of my issues with Japanese chisels is the cost. For $50 per tools, I can purchase an LN chisel which is generally acknowleged as a high end western chisel. But for that same $50 per tool, I can only get an entry level Japanese chisel - if I'm understanding how everyone has catagorized the Imai chisel.

So for me to bite off one of those Imai's, I'd have to believe that it will perform as well as an LN chisel. To bite off a more expensive Japanese chisel, I'd have to believe it will perform significantly better than a LN chisel.

Mike

David DeCristoforo

05-06-2008, 3:03 PM

OK... here's a "final test". After having chopped up all that cocobolo and white oak and having not re-sharpened the chisel, see if you can split this hair any finer.....:p

Wiley Horne

05-06-2008, 3:29 PM

Terry Bigelow

05-06-2008, 5:09 PM

We're beginning to run into a statistical problem. Which is that all of our accounts are inevitably gonna be anecdotal. It doesn't make sense for any of us to buy 100 9mm chisels from a dozen different makers and subject them to a protocol of tests, and do means and standard deviations. So it doesn't happen, and therefore we are guided by gut feel and whatever evidence is brought forward. Like Wilbur's evidence. And Mike's, too. And Terry's.

That's why it is all to the good for examples to be brought forward, knowing that you can only generalize a limited amount from anyone's personal data. But at least you have that to go on. Incidentally, I would not categorically place Matsumura in the 'bad' pile--I have heard one account of 'chipping' alleged against these, and I have heard at least a half dozen favorable accounts of them. Right now, I am using Imai sword steel, plus Funahiro, plus Tasai. Kiyohisa on order. They are all expensive. But years ago, I had several $35 dovetail chisels from JWW that looked like Matsumura made them--but whatever, they were $35 chisels--and they all gave good service under abuse. Like chopping mortises with them!

One final thing. All of us need cheapie chisels too. Like Borg chisels. Or chippable Japanese. What else are you going to use to chop holes in walls and carry around in a wheelbarrow to do fence repairs and carpentry. So even the 'risky' chisels aren't that risky. Plus, if you chip a chisel, you get to learn about grinding primary bevels. It's all good.

Wiley
Well said my friend. And yes, we all need "beater" chisels. Better those than the pricey one's when the wife goes to open a can of paint!

One of my issues with Japanese chisels is the cost. For $50 per tools, I can purchase an LN chisel which is generally acknowleged as a high end western chisel. But for that same $50 per tool, I can only get an entry level Japanese chisel - if I'm understanding how everyone has catagorized the Imai chisel.

So for me to bite off one of those Imai's, I'd have to believe that it will perform as well as an LN chisel. To bite off a more expensive Japanese chisel, I'd have to believe it will perform significantly better than a LN chisel.

Mike

Mike, this is why I brought up my experience with the Kumogoro's. I'm certainly no expert on Japanese chisels(or western for that matter), but I don't see the Imai as "entry level" at $50. As I stated the Kumogoro's are a bit cheaper and leave me nothing to complain about. But, this is again a matter of each individuals definition of "entry level". Regardless, I still maintain you get what you pay for for the most part. That doesn't mean there aren't deals to be had or rip-offs as well, but for $50 I think you'd be hard pressed to find any major performance differences between the LN's and the Imai's(sharpening aside). The only differences would be those which we seem to all be talking about: personal preference!

Dan Barr

05-06-2008, 5:57 PM

i think we've gone too far here...

not in a drastic way or anything like that. but, weve beat horse to death here as opposed to beating a dead horse.

i think that the imai chisel used here is obviously a good chisel. the woodcraft brand japanese chisels that i used flat out sucked! they chipped, crumbled and altogether werent good enough for quartersawn white oak. i was very disappointed and that is what i based my statemnent of "after one mallet blow, youre up $#@! creek". :)

no one is picking on Japanese chisels or trying to be a nationalist or something like that.

ciao,

dan

Wiley Horne

05-06-2008, 7:42 PM

One difference is that LN says you better put about a 35 degree bevel on theirs. Didn't Wilbur chop that cocobolo and white oak at 29 or so?

Wiley

Mike Henderson

05-06-2008, 9:51 PM

One difference is that LN says you better put about a 35 degree bevel on theirs. Didn't Wilbur chop that cocobolo and white oak at 29 or so?

Wiley
I'm going from memory here, but I think my LN chisels came from the factory with a 30* bevel. I sharpen them to a 25* angle and use a secondary bevel depending on the work I'm doing.

Mike

Wiley Horne

05-06-2008, 10:23 PM

Mark Singer

05-06-2008, 11:09 PM

I think the wooden handle is held in the hand and the metal end addresses the work piece:rolleyes:

Stephen Shepherd

05-06-2008, 11:31 PM

a rented mule. Lets not pour a bucket of water on this, some interesting information is surfacing.

Stephen

Larry Williams

05-06-2008, 11:58 PM

Mike Henderson

05-07-2008, 12:07 AM

Mike,

Yes, LN ships them flat ground at 30 and advises using a 35 secondary on their website. However, your experience is more interesting. Do you have any idea what angles you're actually using? The data (even rough estimates) would be useful, particularly in light of LN's caution.

Wiley
I can't tell you the specific angles. I start with the 25* bevel and when the edge starts to fail, I hone a secondary bevel. If that edge fails too quickly (in my opinion) I hone a bit steeper angle.

Most of my work is not hard chopping. To make a mortise, I drill out the hole first so mostly I'm cleaning up rather than chopping. And I haven't done any dovetails recently. But if I'm doing some hard chopping, I'm sure I wind up with a 35* angle or so.

Otherwise, I'm usually trimming (paring) something to fit so the 25* angle is good (often a tenon - shoulder and cheeks). Also, I have a bunch of chisels (but only a few are LNs) so I'll switch chisels and sharpen later.

Mike

The type of edge failure I experience with the LNs (and with others) is that the edge gets rough - it's no longer a nice smooth, straight edge. I can still cut with it but it cuts much better after a few swipes on a fine stone. Those few swipes puts a bit of a secondary bevel on the tool. If I hollow ground the chisels originally (I don't) I could hone without putting a secondary bevel, but I flat sharpen my chisels.

Pam Niedermayer

05-07-2008, 12:58 AM

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Derek Cohen

05-07-2008, 2:28 AM

I'm coming to this discussion very late (and have no desire to read the first 4 pages. I have read the last 3).

One question posed (as I understand) is whether a $50 LN and a $50 Imai offer the same value-for-money. Someone (Wilbur?) suggested that the LN should be compared with a lower cost Japanese chisel. I think this is incorrect. In my mind it is quite simple: one evaluates $ for $. That is all.

What is not so simple is that the basis for comparison is going to vary as we have personal differences and tastes in what we consider important. Edge holding is only one factor. Comfort/balance (are they the same?) in holding the chisel is another. "Sharpness" is a third. What about the ease of bevelling as low as possible (as this affect penetration)?

I have a widish selection of chisels sets from which to choose. Berg, Witherby, Blue Spruce, Iyoroi, Koyomaichi. This past weekend I spent chopping dovetails in Radiata Pine - awful stuff. It is resiny and difficult to cut without breaking out. I chose to use a 1/4" Matsumura for the small tails and a 1" Iyoroi for the wide tails. I cleaned up, where needed, with Blue Spruce skew and dovetail chisels.

Now the important aspect of this experience was that I did not have to rehone a chisel at any time of the two days. And I cut a LOT of dovetails. When the chisel began to no longer slice smoothly, I simply ran it along a leather strop a few times. Then back to chopping.

Below is a picture of the end grain at the end of the second day. Note that the BS chisels only did a small fraction of the work. The majority was down to the 1" Iyoroi on the tails.

Chopping halfway through the thickness (before turning in over):

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Joints/Dovetail%20jig/5Jig-Choppingfromtheoutside1.jpg

I consider that the smoothness of the endgrain is a good indicator of the edge holding of the Iyoroi. But would I want to pare with this chisel? NO - too uncomfortable for that purpose - that is why I have the BS. What does that mean about the results?

Regards from Perth

Derek

James Mittlefehldt

05-07-2008, 8:04 AM

Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the thread some other knot head (ie me) pipes up.

Actually I have a question that I think Derek may have partially already answered. One thing Mike said that I agreed with whole heartedly was, if someone, anyone was going to charge a premium price for something, anything then they should be able to list that it is better because........

Well after reading yesterdays posts regarding this whole chisel thing I was perusing the Lee Valley site, (they have a new plane or something coming out soon and I constantly check the what's new bit) And I recalled that they have two sets of Japanese dovetail chisels.

The one I would be interested in is the 3 mm size for cleaning out dovetails, (though who knows if it would stop there) The lower cost line white steel chisels by one Hiroshi Koyama would cost $49.50 US dollars.

The premium line blue steel chisels by Mr. Teruo Miyanga was $89. US dollars, again for the 3 mm. Now speaking to Mikes statement tha I alluded to earlier the Lee Valley does at least in part explain the higher price. Their assertion is that the blue steel is harder to work owing to a higher level of tungsten and chromium, now I am no metallurgist but I assume the chromium gives a harder and tougher steel though I am not sure what tungston brings to the party.

At the same time I could get the same size blue spruce chisel, (boy they are pretty) for $55.60 US plus shipping made from A2 but hardened to Rc 60 as opposed the the Japanese contenders which come in at Rc 65-66.

So if I was to have these side by side what would you speculate would be the difference in performance, I personally doubt that the increaase in price would be justified but am willing to be corrected. I should add that I am a tad parsimonious, well actually almost cheap.

Wilbur Pan

05-07-2008, 8:05 AM

Hi Wilbur,

I'm having a bit of a problem following your train of thought here.

Hi Brent,

The joys of internet communication at work. ;) My thinking is in relation to two different issues here.

To address the first part, here's an executive summary of the discussion as I saw it:

Japanese chisels chip too easily to be used in hardwood.
Chop chop chop chop. No, my Imai chisel seems to do pretty well.
Well, I didn't think you would use a super duper chisel like an Imai, so it's not a fair test.
An Imai is not really a super duper chisel. It's price competitive with a Lie-Nielsen chisel, and in the range of Japanese chisels it's in the middle of the pack.

Here's the executive summary for my reasoning to get an Imai chisel in the first place:

Read information on people's experiences with Japanese chisels. Grizzly Japanese chisels are inexpensive, but people say that they chip. Matsumuras seem good, but a few reports of chipping. Tasai seems great -- no negative reports, but not in my budget. Ditto for Funahiro. Ditto for Imai sword steel. Wait -- Imai makes regular chisels as well! Talk to Kayoko at Misugi Designs, who also has a reputation for excellent customer service. She advises me to get the regular Imai chisels -- I'm a beginner woodworker, her customers have been real happy with the regular Imai chisels, and upgrade to sword steel later after I've had more experience. Buy a few Imai chisels. Very happy with results.

I don't really see these two trains of thought as being contradictory, but maybe I'm missing something.

Looking back, I did overstate the "You can't get a good Japanese chisel for less than $50" comment. I should not have put things that way.

Wilbur Pan

05-07-2008, 8:13 AM

I don't know how to judge equal quality between a western chisel and a Japanese chisel.

One of my issues with Japanese chisels is the cost. For $50 per tools, I can purchase an LN chisel which is generally acknowleged as a high end western chisel. But for that same $50 per tool, I can only get an entry level Japanese chisel - if I'm understanding how everyone has catagorized the Imai chisel.

So for me to bite off one of those Imai's, I'd have to believe that it will perform as well as an LN chisel. To bite off a more expensive Japanese chisel, I'd have to believe it will perform significantly better than a LN chisel.

Is there a reason you would expect an Imai chisel not to perform at least as well as a Lie-Nielsen at the same price, given the demo that I did?

I think that an Imai is a middle of the pack chisel, not an entry level chisel. Just to try to place the relative levels of Japanese chisels in terms of planes:

Grizzly Japanese chisels = Anant jack plane
Imai = Lee Valley bevel up jack plane
Tasai = Holtey infill

Wilbur Pan

05-07-2008, 8:26 AM

We all kind of need to be in the same room to really see what's going on. From the photos, it looks like one corner of the chisel has chipped off. We all have different definitions of sharp and chipping as well. We all expect different things from the steel we use and the edges we create. All I can judge this "experiment" by is the photos and close-ups at a higher resolution would help. The photo on the left is a section of your before photo and the one on the right is the after photo. To me it looks like there was edge damage an a whole corner is gone. The red arrow points to that corner. Reality may be different than what I think I'm seeing in the photos.

To give you a sense of scale, this chisel is only 3 mm wide. The corner damage is there, but it's barely visible to the naked eye, and didn't have any effect I could see on performance. I don't have anything that I can measure it with, but guesstimating from the picture the corner damage is about 1/128th of an inch. I've since sharpened the chisel, and it took minimal work on a fine grit waterstone to get rid of it.

I don't really see any edge damage, and regardless, the edge was still sharp enough to do the end grain shavings in pine that I showed. My feeling is that the end result speaks most as to the quality of the edge.

Wilbur Pan

05-07-2008, 8:35 AM

One question posed (as I understand) is whether a $50 LN and a $50 Imai offer the same value-for-money. Someone (Wilbur?) suggested that the LN should be compared with a lower cost Japanese chisel. I think this is incorrect. In my mind it is quite simple: one evaluates $ for $. That is all.

No, that wasn't me. Dollar for dollar comparisons are appropriate, regardless of manufacturing methods.

Nice dovetails! I wish mine were as good.

Brent Smith

05-07-2008, 9:34 AM

Hi Wilbur,

And the light bulb goes on!!!!!

It's your summary that threw me off...........
"Well, I didn't think you would use a super duper chisel like an Imai, so it's not a fair test."

When I brought up the fact that you used an Imai it wasn't to meant to say that "of course it worked with a chisel of that quality". What I meant was that Dan's observation was probably based on using low quality Japanese chisels and by your use of an Imai you showed that his observation was not a true generalization of what Japanese chisels can do.

To quote you once again.......The joys of internet communication at work. ;)

Frank Drew

05-07-2008, 9:59 AM

Without rereading the entire thread, I think David said Imai could be considered entry level in the artisan category, so already several levels above mass market tools.

What do Ooichi chisels sell for these days? I got mine slightly used in 1980-81, but at the time I think most Japanese carpenters would have considered them serious professional tools.

Larry Williams

05-07-2008, 10:09 AM

Frank Drew

05-07-2008, 10:32 AM

Larry,

Yes, the chisel lost a bit of its corner, but at 8x magnification of its actual size it might look deceptively large; increase the magnification enough and no edge will look perfect.

"I want an edge to wear as if it were being polished". Well sure, me too, but I've never used any tool that got sharper with use; you're proposing the edge tool equivalent of a perpetual motion machine.

Peter Quadarella

05-07-2008, 11:24 AM

In our shop, we recently switched from 36 grit grinding wheels to 24 grit. The nick in your edge you seem to think doesn't matter is bigger than the abrasive signatures of a 24 grit wheel. If I didn't think these signatures matter, I would figure out a way to grind to the edge and avoid honing all together.

I don't think that anyone would suggest that any blade could stay 100% pristine after all that chopping. The question is, can the blade still cut easily, and is the amount of time to bring it back to perfection inordinate?

David DeCristoforo

05-07-2008, 12:40 PM

"...What do Ooichi chisels sell for these days?..."

Send an email over to Daiku Dojo. Email address is info@daikudojo.org. If you can a attach a pic of one of the chisels it will help but they can advise you on just about anything related to Japanese hand tools.....

Wiley Horne

05-07-2008, 1:09 PM

Frank,

I suspect your Ouchii (yet a third spelling:)) chisels have achieved legendary status today. I have seen the brand name advertised by a Miki City maker, but it's not the same article as the western Japan maker who made yours.

You could check with So-san at http://www.japan-tool.com/
to find out the rarity/availability of the true Ouchii chisels.

On the subject of Ouchii, it is difficult to find actual metallurgical studies which have tried to get to the bottom of what makes a great chisel. One such study was conducted by a fellow named Bill Stankus, and the Ouchii chisel came out on top of the 11 Japanese and western brands tested.

The reference is "Testing Wood Chisels", pp. 80-84 of a softbound book, 'Bench Tools', from the series The Best of Fine Woodworking. Taunton Press, 1990.

Stankus bench-tested 11 chisels, rating them for edge retention, then cut the chisels up into pieces for metallurgical analysis, testing each one for carbon content, Rockwell hardness at the cutting edge, grain size, carbide presence and distribution.

Stankus then sought to relate the performance of each chisel to these metallurgical properties. What emerged was that hardness alone (Rc hardness) did not explain edge retention or chipping--fineness of grain, and carbide presence and distribution, were essential to edge holding. The three Japanese chisels had the best edge retention, and it appeared to be based jointly on fine grain, good carbide presence and distribution, and Rc hardness. It is notable that only one of the 3 Japanese chisels had an Rc value above 61.5, and that was the most expensive one, an Ouchii at 63.5.

You may be familiar with that study, but I mention it in case not.

Wiley

Frank Drew

05-07-2008, 1:44 PM

Thanks for the link, David. If they're still being sold and if the quality is the same I was thinking of these tools as a good buy, perhaps a bit less expensive than those by some of the more cult-status makers, but still in every way serious tools, for use by people who do the work for a living.

Wiley, just in the last few days (here, and on the Japanese Woodworking Forum) I've seen Ooichi, Oouchi, Ouchii... I'm assuming they're one and the same but the pronunciation of all three would be different so it's curious to see the variation in English spelling; if I remember correctly the carpenters I worked with, and bought the tools from, pronounced it more like Ooichi. I actually did look at Japan-Tool earlier today and I saw some Oouchi [sic] bench and timber framing chisels (older stock, made in the Eighties, I think), and I think they were all $100+ each. Now that you mention it, I think I remember that chisel test from Fine Woodworking and remember being shocked at the time that they'd cut up such high quality chisels; it was in the interest of science, I know, but still...!!!

Larry Williams

05-07-2008, 2:06 PM

...I've never used any tool that got sharper with use; you're proposing the edge tool equivalent of a perpetual motion machine.

Come on Frank, what I'm saying is that I want the dulling process to be the result of molecules abrading away. This leaves a polished but rounded dull edge. I don't want the edge to fracture and drop away pieces of steel.

Yes, I do magnify my edges when sharpening. I would guess I should be used to seeing a more ragged edge than most of those using Japanese tools because my finish stone is a translucent hard Arkansas of about 1000 grit.

If a fractured up edge is sharp and functional to you then you have a different definition of sharp and functional than I do. If the kind of edge problem Wilbur showed in his photos isn't chipping to you than you have a different definition of "chipping" than I do. In my work I often want my chisels to leave a finish surface and, if a fractured up edge leaves one for you, you have a different definition of acceptable finish surface than I do.

Mike Henderson

05-07-2008, 2:31 PM

On the subject of Ouchii, it is difficult to find actual metallurgical studies which have tried to get to the bottom of what makes a great chisel. One such study was conducted by a fellow named Bill Stankus, and the Ouchii chisel came out on top of the 11 Japanese and western brands tested.

The reference is "Testing Wood Chisels", pp. 80-84 of a softbound book, 'Bench Tools', from the series The Best of Fine Woodworking. Taunton Press, 1990.

Stankus bench-tested 11 chisels, rating them for edge retention, then cut the chisels up into pieces for metallurgical analysis, testing each one for carbon content, Rockwell hardness at the cutting edge, grain size, carbide presence and distribution.

Stankus then sought to relate the performance of each chisel to these metallurgical properties. What emerged was that hardness alone (Rc hardness) did not explain edge retention or chipping--fineness of grain, and carbide presence and distribution, were essential to edge holding. The three Japanese chisels had the best edge retention, and it appeared to be based jointly on fine grain, good carbide presence and distribution, and Rc hardness. It is notable that only one of the 3 Japanese chisels had an Rc value above 61.5, and that was the most expensive one, an Ouchii at 63.5.

You may be familiar with that study, but I mention it in case not.

Wiley
I'm not familiar with the study but that's the kind of data I've been searching for. However I searched amazon for the book "Bench tools" and also searched Taunton for "Testing Wood Chisels" and for the author "Bill Stankus" but no hits. Could anyone provide a pointer to that study? The ISBN of the book would be good.

Also, since this is a "best of fine woodworking" book, it means that it's an article that was published in Fine Woodworking. Can anyone give the issue number where it appeared? I have a set of FWW so I could just look it up in the issue. Anyone who has a subscription to the articles on the web site could access it also.

If anyone has any other studies of this nature, I'd appreciate you posting a pointer to that study or studies, also.

Mike

[Oops, I found the book on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0942391845/104-2928847-8207160?SubscriptionId=1NNRF7QZ418V218YP1R2).]

Wiley Horne

05-07-2008, 2:50 PM

Mike Henderson

05-07-2008, 3:18 PM

Mike,

I guess there's just not much call these days for metallurgical analysis of chisels! Anyway, here's the reference:

'Bench Tools', from The Best of Fine Woodworking
The Taunton Press, 1990
ISBN 0-942391-84-5

Article is on pp. 80-84,
'Testing Wood Chisels'
by Bill Stankus.

It appears this article is anthologized in this book from an earlier published article in Fine Woodworking magazine. The reference to the magazine article is,

Fine Woodworking magazine
March 1985
51: 44-48.

I take it that '51' is a volume number, and 44-48 are the pages.

I could probably scan it for you at about 1/2meg to 1meg per page, for the five pages.

Also, thank you very much for the detailed description of the LN chisel working characteristics, from your earlier post. It's very interesting and helpful I think.

Wiley
Thanks, Wiley, I have the article in front of me right now. I have a set of the old FWW magazines.

I've searched for the article on the FWW site but have not been able to find it anywhere. Some time back I communicated with the editor of FWW about the availability of old articles and he told me that they had not obtained electronic rights from the authors back then - and now, they can't find some of the authors, or the authors will not give electronic rights. So it may not be available on the web.

I'll read over it. Thanks for posting that info.

Mike

Frank Drew

05-07-2008, 3:19 PM

Yes, it's in issue #51. Rereading it now, I'd forgottem about the short sidebar at the end of the main article, in which a fellow named Paul Horgan, who says his background was in metals quality control, basically dismisses the idea that there are any qualitative differences in modern day chisels, and says that the Japanese still use laminated construction because 1) They revere tradition and 2) Recognize a good marketing ploy when they see one. In other words, he implied, they're selling the sizzle instead of the steak.

I remember thinking at the time, "What an idiot."

Mike, if Wiley's scan doesn't work for whatever reason, I can Xerox the article and fax or mail it to you.

Mike Henderson

05-07-2008, 3:39 PM

I want to remind everyone that the perceived advantage of Japanese chisels is that the steel in the edge is harder than in western chisels and therefore they will retain an edge longer.

But Japanese chisels are an acquired taste - you may like them, or you may not. For example, I don't find the handles to be comfortable in my hand (but then, I don't like many chisel handles).

While I recommend everyone to try both western and Japanese chisels, I would also recommend you purchase only one or two of whatever type you don't have and see how you like them before spending a lot of money (unless you have a lot of money).

Mike

Pam Niedermayer

05-07-2008, 3:48 PM

...I suspect your Ouchii (yet a third spelling:)) chisels have achieved legendary status today. I have seen the brand name advertised by a Miki City maker, but it's not the same article as the western Japan maker who made yours....

Iida-san sells a set of Ouchi oire nomi for $794 US.

Pam

Wiley Horne

05-07-2008, 4:13 PM

Hi Pam,

I could be wrong, but.....if you read Iida-san's ad carefully, it appears to me that a Miki City maker is using the older brand name, but those chisels currently being advertised are not coming from the shop that made Frank's chisels. Of course, it would be a small miracle if the original smith were still working, in any event.

Wiley

Wilbur Pan

05-07-2008, 4:28 PM

I would consider that nick of seven or eight thousandths pretty significant. It would, in fact, be on the large size if I was looking at an edge on one of my chisels. You're talking about big chunks spalling off an edge and I'm talking about how the edge degrades in use. I want an edge to wear as if it were being polished, I don't want it to get jagged through either chipping or folding from being too soft.

Neither do I. For what it's worth, as I proceeded to whack away at those notches in the 8/4 white oak, towards the end the chisel did seem to slow down some, as I had mentioned. It could have been that my arm was tiring out, and it could have been edge breakdown. But the way it was slowing down was indistinguishable from the breakdown of the edge of western chisels I've used, except that the overall process was slower.

In other words, the feel of the wearing process seemed to be identical to what you are describing that you would want in your chisels.

And in an attempt not to talk past each other, when I said that the nick in the corner was a guesstimated 1/128" of an inch I meant that the width of the nick along the edge was 1/128th of an inch, but didn't mention that the depth of the nick was far shallower than that. To look at it another way, the defect may have been wider than your 24 grit wheels, but the depth of the defect was far smaller.

In any case, the chisel still could cut a clean corner with that nick, again probably because the nick was much wider than it was deep, like a ham handed attempt at cambering the edge.

Hope that made sense.

Dan Racette

05-07-2008, 4:41 PM

I don't think this thread convinced anyone of anything!

I think everyone has read this thread and still interpreted it to their liking! It's just really making me perplexed.

Did not the Bench Tools articles talk of Japanese tools having excellent edge retention properties, yet Mike is almost gloating as if his previous points have been "made" because of the points listed by the steak vs. sizzle comment. So when the testing is on the side of the Japanese tools, Mike, you ignore it? And when the opinion is against Japanese tools you believe it? Is that how it works?

I'm really perplexed.

Mike Henderson

05-07-2008, 5:06 PM

Did not the Bench Tools articles talk of Japanese tools having excellent edge retention properties, yet Mike is almost gloating as if his previous points have been "made" because of the points listed by the steak vs. sizzle comment. So when the testing is on the side of the Japanese tools, Mike, you ignore it? And when the opinion is against Japanese tools you believe it? Is that how it works?

I'm really perplexed.
I don't know if I'm the "Mike" you're referring to but if it is, I have no idea where you're getting the idea that I'm gloating over anything.

If I am the "Mike" you're referring to, I ask you to point out where you're getting those ideas from.

If I'm not the person you're referring to, I apologize for questioning you. But even if I'm not the "Mike" you're referring to, personal attacks are really not appropriate.

Mike

Dan Racette

05-07-2008, 5:12 PM

Mike Henderson

05-07-2008, 5:40 PM

Mr. Henderson, I wasn't intending on making an attack. I'm sorry. But it almost seemed to me as though you were gloating to the entire list of posters when you said:
"I want to remind everyone that the perceived advantage of Japanese chisels is that the steel in the edge is harder than in western chisels and therefore they will retain an edge longer"

I was trying to point out that the article listed in the "bench tools" book listed just the opposite of what you said. I will not post anymore to the statements that you have made. I was perplexed as to why you posted it, and I was trying to see what you made, what seemed to be to me, contrary posts.

I apologize if it seems offensive.

Dan
Okay, apology accepted. I in no way had any concept of gloating in my mind when I posted that - nor an idea of what I could possibly be gloating about. What I was trying to do was to caution people about getting too excited about any new tool until they have the opportunity to try it out a bit.

Perhaps I was extrapolating what I sometime do.:)

Mike

Jim Koepke

05-07-2008, 6:15 PM

For what it is worth, I have not used any Japanese chisels.

I am not one for hooped handles and all the Japanese chisels seem to have them. If a tool is not comfortable in my hands, it is likely to be left unused for the favor of one that does feel good in my hands.

I do believe Mr. Henderson made the same point about the handles not suiting him because of the discomfort caused by the hoops.

I do think his point of chisel material being a physical substance and not a spiritual experience is valid. Steel wrought by vestal virgins stoking the fires on mount Olympus is not going to be any different than the steel made by unshaven grubs as long as the mixture and heat treatments are the same. No amount of ritual will change that.

If someone knows about changes in the trade off in toughness-hardness-sharpness trinity, please elaborate.

I do not whack my chisels with the force of Thor's hammer. Nails are smitten harder in my world, even the small ones.

When my wife was shown an ad with new chisels running in the neighborhood of $50 each, she kissed me on the cheek and said she was happy that I found used chisels OK.

I did have one cheap chisel that was so poorly made that chips would be created when it was being sharpened. It was given to me and it was not made by a western tool maker.

jim

Larry Williams

05-07-2008, 7:41 PM

...And in an attempt not to talk past each other, when I said that the nick in the corner was a guesstimated 1/128" of an inch I meant that the width of the nick along the edge was 1/128th of an inch, but didn't mention that the depth of the nick was far shallower than that. To look at it another way, the defect may have been wider than your 24 grit wheels, but the depth of the defect was far smaller.

In any case, the chisel still could cut a clean corner with that nick, again probably because the nick was much wider than it was deep, like a ham handed attempt at cambering the edge.

Hope that made sense.

Wilbur,

That's exactly what I would expect of edge chipping--that it'll be wider than it is deep. That's where the steel is thinnest. When I look at an edge the main thing I'm looking for is the quality of the edge right where the two planes that make up that edge meet.

I don't think you'd have used that photo if you realized the failure at the corner is exactly what I think most people referring to when they mention edge chipping. At least I assume that's what they're talking about because it's what I mean when I talk about edge chipping. Yes, it is quick and easy to repair but then so is the type of dulling I want to see or even when the edge folds. Chipping and folding are indications of unpredictable and premature edge failure. Well, folding is predictable because you know it'll happen quickly.

I think this is a great example of people talking past each other. I suspect you thought of edge chipping as something more dramatic. To me, it's dramatic enough when my intended edge fractures and falls off.

Pam Niedermayer

05-07-2008, 8:40 PM

Wiley Horne

05-07-2008, 8:59 PM

Yes, you're right, and very good suggestion about asking Iida. That's what I should have said!

Wiley

Wilbur Pan

05-07-2008, 11:35 PM

Wilbur,

That's exactly what I would expect of edge chipping--that it'll be wider than it is deep. That's where the steel is thinnest. When I look at an edge the main thing I'm looking for is the quality of the edge right where the two planes that make up that edge meet.

I don't think you'd have used that photo if you realized the failure at the corner is exactly what I think most people referring to when they mention edge chipping. At least I assume that's what they're talking about because it's what I mean when I talk about edge chipping. Yes, it is quick and easy to repair but then so is the type of dulling I want to see or even when the edge folds. Chipping and folding are indications of unpredictable and premature edge failure. Well, folding is predictable because you know it'll happen quickly.

I think this is a great example of people talking past each other. I suspect you thought of edge chipping as something more dramatic. To me, it's dramatic enough when my intended edge fractures and falls off.

Larry,

Thanks for clarifying!

In this demo, I was looking for dramatic chipping, because that is what the conventional wisdom predicts will happen when a Japanese chisel meets hardwood, and that is what I wanted to find out was true or not.

Could you expand on what you mean by "I want an edge to wear as if it were being polished"? Do you see a progressive decline in edge performance? From your descriptions it sounds like your experience is when the edge of a chisel folds/chips the performance suddenly drops off -- going from 60 to 0 in no time flat, as it were.

The reason that I ask is that I don't think I've ever had a chisel that wears as if it were "being polished", so I'm not sure how that feels. Nor have I ever experienced a sudden change in performance with my Japanese chisels. Instead, performance slowly degrades as the chisels are used.

This is what happened with the Imai chisel in this demo as well. As I was chopping and paring, nothing happened that would have made me stop and think, "Hey -- I think there's a chip in the corner of my chisel!" Instead, as I was chopping the last notch in the white oak, I was thinking, "This chisel is slowing down some. I'll be happy to get this chisel sharpened again." It actually was a surprise to me that I was able to get clean endgrain shavings in that scrap of pine the second time around -- and that is with that chip in the corner of the chisel.

Certainly, I did not encounter any catastrophic change in chisel performance in this demo. It may be that edge chipping, as you are defining it, does something different to my chisels.

Frank Drew

05-08-2008, 10:10 AM

For what it is worth, I have not used any Japanese chisels.

I am not one for hooped handles and all the Japanese chisels seem to have them. If a tool is not comfortable in my hands, it is likely to be left unused for the favor of one that does feel good in my hands.

I do believe Mr. Henderson made the same point about the handles not suiting him because of the discomfort caused by the hoops.

Jim, the hooped chisels are meant to be hit with a hammer; the Japanese also make chisels intended for paring by hand and those don't have hoops. For the record, I've used Japanese hooped chisels a lot, often for paring, and find them comfortable, and, most importantly, very well balanced.

I do think his point of chisel material being a physical substance and not a spiritual experience is valid. Steel wrought by vestal virgins stoking the fires on mount Olympus is not going to be any different than the steel made by unshaven grubs as long as the mixture and heat treatments are the same. No amount of ritual will change that.
Early in this thread one poster did mention his spiritual satisfaction in using these tools, but I think the thrust of most of the arguments in the pro camp have emphasized more down-to-earth, objective qualities. But you knew that.

If someone knows about changes in the trade off in toughness-hardness-sharpness trinity, please elaborate.
This really has been addressed, most fully in the cited Fine Woodworking article. It doesn't have to be zero sum, i.e. any increase in hardness brings an equivalent brittleness; combining hardness and toughness is what distinguishes the better edge tools.

Larry Williams

05-08-2008, 10:27 AM

...Could you expand on what you mean by "I want an edge to wear as if it were being polished"? Do you see a progressive decline in edge performance? From your descriptions it sounds like your experience is when the edge of a chisel folds/chips the performance suddenly drops off -- going from 60 to 0 in no time flat, as it were.

The reason that I ask is that I don't think I've ever had a chisel that wears as if it were "being polished", so I'm not sure how that feels. Nor have I ever experienced a sudden change in performance with my Japanese chisels. Instead, performance slowly degrades as the chisels are used.

This is what happened with the Imai chisel in this demo as well. As I was chopping and paring, nothing happened that would have made me stop and think, "Hey -- I think there's a chip in the corner of my chisel!" Instead, as I was chopping the last notch in the white oak, I was thinking, "This chisel is slowing down some. I'll be happy to get this chisel sharpened again." It actually was a surprise to me that I was able to get clean endgrain shavings in that scrap of pine the second time around -- and that is with that chip in the corner of the chisel.

Certainly, I did not encounter any catastrophic change in chisel performance in this demo. It may be that edge chipping, as you are defining it, does something different to my chisels.

First, I'm not surprised you suffered edge chipping driving your chisel into cocobolo. It's pretty hard stuff and I'd be pretty cautious using my chisels like you used yours.

I think you'd have considered the loss of your cutting edge catastrophic if you had actually been working on a surface that showed and you were concerned about surface quality. You weren't working with the edge you created when sharpening, you were working with the jagged crystalline edge left when hardened steel fractures. It's one of the problems I find with practicing or demonstrating, it's just different when you're working on something you've already invested time into and the results will matter in the long term.

Your question about the wear I mentioned brings to mind a chisel I use for paring. It's a Witherby ground and honed at 25º. It wears exactly like I mentioned. The first sign of the edge rounding and getting dull is that it becomes slightly difficult to control depth of cut which means my line starts to wander. As soon as I start having trouble getting a perfectly straight line I know it's time to resharpen.

This kind of wear is normal and expected in old carving chisels. Ashley Iles chisels seem to be the same. They're tools that will stay with you all day with only occasional light stropping to refresh the edge. I don't think carving tool makers could survive without getting things close to exactly right. Don McConnell has told me a couple times he thinks edge tool makers reserved their best steel for carving tools. I'm not sure these makers could grade steel that way and I think they were simply extra careful with heat treating and ,especially, tempering.

I'm no fan of the magic bullet steels that seem so popular today. Every single claimed advantage comes at the expense of a different quality that good steel has. A-2, for example, tends to be coarse grained and doesn't handle being honed at 25º well. If someone wants to impress me with tool steel, they should hand me something like I find in my old gouges and carving tools by Butcher, Charles Buck, Howarth, Cam or Addis. I don't care much for mystique, I want performance.