joint-genie vs Dowelmax

[Larry James]

This is NOT a RANT regarding Dowelmax. Dowelmax is the best thing since Mortise met Tenon, and it sure would be nice if Jim Lindsay would donate a Dowelmax, or discount coupon, etc. to SMC Free Stuff Drawings.

Appears Dowelmax has a UK competitor. Could be this has been posted before, but I searched SMC and did not find it. Versatile dowel jig that appears to have some additional features, and it comes with a BOX!

Check out video and info at:

http://www.joint-genie.co.uk/home_page.html

Larry

[Shawn Honeychurch]

Looks good, very flexible and fool proof, not to mention fast. Good prices as well. Not sure what shipping would be tot Canada, but given the cost of about $100 for the craftsman 12mm, I can't imagine the cost coming even close to the dowelmax. I might have to get one of these.

Shawn

[Chris Padilla]

It is all indexed in metric...might need some different fold-down tabs for SAE. :) However, I like it...I like it a lot!

[Ron Dunn]

From the video, here is what I like about Joint Genie:

* End-registration tab
* Parallel bars for multiple rows of dowels
* Packaging

What I thought was interesting, but not proven as accurate:

* Multiple tab offset method
* Screw mounting method

Here is what I didn't like:

* No in-built clamping
* No replacable bushings in guide block (?)

Because I'm a dowelling nut I'll probably buy one to add to my collection, but I don't expect it will beat the Dowelmax into first place.

[Chris Padilla]

Looks good, very flexible and fool proof, not to mention fast. Good prices as well. Not sure what shipping would be tot Canada, but given the cost of about $100 for the craftsman 12mm, I can't imagine the cost coming even close to the dowelmax. I might have to get one of these.

Shawn

Shawn,

Pretty sure that is 100 pounds...not dollars. That is nearly $200 plus shipping. Still pretty cool!

[Chris Padilla]

* No in-built clamping
* No replacable bushings in guide block (?)

Because I'm a dowelling nut I'll probably buy one to add to my collection, but I don't expect it will beat the Dowelmax into first place.

Agree about the clamping but some quick-clamps look like they'll work fine.

Dunno about the bushings and I'd like the ability to use a larger drill bit if I wanted to but I guess one just does mulitple rows of dowels instead of larger dowels.

Also, no fitted box for anything but the 8 mm version.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Joint Genie".... Much cooler name than Dowelmax (booorrring). JK used to make these out of wood scraps. They probably did not last as long as the steel versions but they were a lot cheaper!

[Shawn Honeychurch]

Shawn,

Pretty sure that is 100 pounds...not dollars. That is nearly $200 plus shipping. Still pretty cool!

Your correct, darn it. Thought the Creek had stumbled across a great deal.
Shawn

[J. Z. Guest]

Interesting. I like the edge guides too. It'll be quicker to get aligned perfectly than DM. But if those edge guides loosen up or bend, accuracy goes down the toilet. DM has the advantage because of simplicity, I think.

Also, it doesn't seem to have hardened steel drill guides. It will wear out quicker, and when it does, the whole guide block will need to be replaced.

I wonder if, in Europe, one can simply go and buy a sack of metric dowels, like we can imperial dowels here?

The case, I wouldn't be too excited about. It has those "flexible hinges" and latches that drive me nuts. I bought a plastic $5 toolbox at Lowes for my DM that is much better. (with REAL plastic hinges, hehehe)

With both this and DM, the one thing that is missing is an easy & accurate way to index end or edge to face joints. I suppose making custom reference spacers out of scrap hardboard is an option...

[Will Blick]

How long has this Joint Genie been on the market?

I too would have liked to have seen some inserts to prevent wear from the drill bits....but over-all IMO a brilliant concept... has this product hit the USA, or just UK for now?

I am curious of Jims position on this product....

[Will Blick]

Art, I must have missed this...can you elaborate?

[Randal Stevenson]

Art, I must have missed this...can you elaborate?


A member here posted his Doweling jig, that was based on an article in Fine Woodworking, that was out before Dowelmax. He used Dowelmax in the title, intended (the way I read it) as a cheaper alternative to. Dowelmax popped in and threatened a lawsuit, patent/trademark infringement, etc, the member claimed prior art, since it was based on Fine Woodworking from X. Members were on both sides, it was getting ugly, and I think the mod's were worried about getting in the middle of the above alleged lawsuit, thread was locked, then removed.

It was a good homemade doweling jig, that if it wasn't for the title, the thread would probably still exist.

[Art Mann]

Yep, thats it. Phil designed and built a wooden jig that bore some resemblance to the Dowelmax jig, although it lacked certain key features of the Dowelmax. It was certainly no more similar in actual use than the one featured in this thread. The funny thing about it was that less than 5% of all the woodworkers I know would have the skill to build the thing with enough accuracy to be useable. There was absolutely no threat to the Dowelmax market.

[Phil Thien]

These things are just screaming "group buy." It has been a while since the Dylos meters, so I'm getting an itchin' anyway.

I wonder if I could get them to make an imperial version for us.

Any interest?

[Ron Dunn]

To keep a patent you have to defend it vigorously. That means chasing any and all obvious infringements. Dowelmax did what was necessary to protect their product.

There seemed to be a lot more to that incident than appeared in this forum.

[Glenn Clabo]

There is ALWAYS more than one side of a story...so there is no reason to rehash this.

ADDITION FROM CHRIS PADILLA: Keep this thread on track with a discussion of the Joint-Genie and let's not get into patent infringements/rights, etc. Thanks....

[Will Blick]

I am curious why they did not use inserts? Why subject the holes to wear? Accuracy will eventually be compromised?

[Dave MacArthur]

Just watched the videos, it looks pretty decent. The UK exchange rate isn't helping us though. I've been looking at a DowelMax, just based on the many accolades it gets from owners... but the price is just so high for some machined metal. With the exchange rate taken into account, I'd like to know the opinions of some Dowelmax users on how this appears to compare--what's better/worse about DM? Thx.

[Chris Padilla]

"Joint Genie".... Much cooler name than Dowelmax (booorrring). JK used to make these out of wood scraps. They probably did not last as long as the steel versions but they were a lot cheaper!

I pointed a buddy of mine who attended the College of Redwoods out here in Northern California to the Joint Gennie site and he said everyone there makes a version of the James Krenov doweling jig out of wood. This one appears to be pretty much the same thing only made out of metal.

[Phil Thien]

For those wondering about my jig design, it is published here:

http://www.cgallery.com/jpthien/dj.htm

It is based almost entirely on the FWW design. All I added was the extrememly kewl sliding feature.

[Dave MacArthur]

Very nice, and a great tutorial with pics.

[Tom Esh]

Just watched the videos, it looks pretty decent. The UK exchange rate isn't helping us though. I've been looking at a DowelMax, just based on the many accolades it gets from owners... but the price is just so high for some machined metal. With the exchange rate taken into account, I'd like to know the opinions of some Dowelmax users on how this appears to compare--what's better/worse about DM? Thx.

As a DM user I wasn't overly impressed by the video. The heavy emphasis on speed makes me wonder about accuracy, and there sure is a lot of pounding going on. Perhaps they're just not as careful choosing bore / bit sizes as the DM folks, but I've never had to use anything but moderate hand pressure to dry fit a DM joint. Also seems using a dowel as an index pin could result in significant cummulative error - and some more pounding.

High precision CNC machining is expensive and doesn't offer the scale benefits of large production runs with custom tooling. I don't think DM is over-priced. Overbuilt? Maybe, but I honestly don't know. I do know I like mine exactly the way it is.:)

[J. Z. Guest]

With the exchange rate taken into account, I'd like to know the opinions of some Dowelmax users on how this appears to compare--what's better/worse about DM? Thx.

I'm a DM user, and you can see my comments above. For some reason, I'm unable to watch the video, but I could see how it works from the photos.

At the current exchange rate, the price is $198.43. (source: www.fxtop.com (http://www.fxtop.com)) By the time you have it shipped here, (I'd guess around $30) you're at $230 vs. $300. Getting close to DM, which is proven.

[Wayne Watling]

Great homemade jig, thanks Phil just saved me a few $$$.

Best,
Wayne

[Larry Rasmussen]

The British piece looks more flexible and I believe could perform fairly accurately. I was initially attracted to the capacity to do shelf ends without a lot of changing the guide or messing around but essentially it looks like you could do most or all of the joints with a dowel max and stay more accurate with just a bit more set up initially. The DM is a lifetime tool.

The deal killer for me is having to use screws or separate clamps in addition to the vise to set it up. If it was $100 sure but not at the price. Dowel Max may actually be worth the money we all paid simple as it looks. If a production drill guide with that accuracy could be made faster and cheaper we'd probably have one on the market.

Larry R
Seattle

[Darius Ferlas]

I pointed a buddy of mine who attended the College of Redwoods out here in Northern California to the Joint Gennie site and he said everyone there makes a version of the James Krenov doweling jig out of wood. This one appears to be pretty much the same thing only made out of metal.

I was intrigued by this post and by the fact JG applied for a patent. So I borrowed Krenov's book (published in 1977) from the local library and indeed, striking resemblance (minus the material used). Pictures included under "Fair Use" clause of the Copyright Act:

[Chris Padilla]

Thanks, Darius. Great to see that book again!

[Ray Schafer]

I cannot compare the DM to this other tool, but I have a relevant opinion. When I considered buying the DM, I thought about the cost of a truly quality doweling jig, the mortise and tenon tools that I might consider and the ease of use. The DM hit all the marks. In looking at the DM compared to this tool, you should think about the quality of the piece and whether it will last your lifetime, or not. Also consider that with the Dowelmax, you can get imperial or metric, and you can use multiple sizes of dowels. It comes with the clamps, and it has the indexing pin and other accessories.

When all is considered, I think that with the DM, you will get a better quality tool which replaces several others. And when you consider everything that you would need to buy with the JG to make them exactly comparable, the DM may actually be less expensive -- especially considering exchange rates.

[Scott Loven]

They do have a link on their web site for US and Canadian buyers.
http://www.joint-genie.com/home-us.html

Scott

[Darius Ferlas]

The DM hit all the marks. In looking at the DM compared to this tool, you should think about the quality of the piece and whether it will last your lifetime, or not. Also consider that with the Dowelmax, you can get imperial or metric, and you can use multiple sizes of dowels. It comes with the clamps, and it has the indexing pin and other accessories.

Given that I have no direct experience with either jig JG seems more versatile, and it is available in both metric and imperial. I wouldn't consider the need to use clamps a drawback. In fact, built in clamps might hinder some of the capabilities JG offers (face dowels for shelving etc) but DM doesn't. And then, with JG you don't need a pencil, with DM you do, so I'd say it's even steven in this regard ;)

I agree that lack of replaceable drill guides in JG is a serious drawback, but I have no reason to suspect that either jig offers lesser accuracy than the other.

[Dave Lehnert]

I guess I'm cheap but got this unit from Rockler the other day for $27.00.

http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-96267234974469_2033_56591365

I would love to have a Dowel Max but $300 is just out of my range for such a jig. I am sure it is very well made but it's only a Dowel Jig. I can buy a Festool sander (ETS 125) for $170 and they are considered by many to be crazy expensive. A Stihl chainsaw can be manufactured(in the USA) and sold at dealers of $179. $300 for a DM just seems expensive in comparison.

Lee Valley sells this jig. Looks like the same idea as the one in the video.
Less than $90

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/drilling/05j0801s1.jpg

[Rich Lightfoot]

If you guys check out the Canada/US site that somebody else posted they have imperial versions 1/4 $94.95, 5/16 $109.95, 3/8 $109.95, a multi set with all 3 for $199.95 and a mini for $54.95 with free shipping across the board.

[Bob Wingard]

Dang !! A friend and I were just in the process of setting up some specs. to make out own DM clone, and now THIS. This thing is a piece of cake to reproduce .. only thing I will change is to make it taller (more guide surface for the bit = better accuracy) and add the use of press-in or screw-in bushings. You can easily add bushings to this thing if you just have access to a lathe and some drill rod and an adjustable reamer. You can drill & ream the rod for a perfect fit (better also than the DM bushings), and heat treat them with a torch .. no need for special ovens, etc. A torch will get you close, and that's all that counts.

[glenn bradley]

I went with Mortise Pal instead of Dowelmax or the Joint Genie but, all of them seem well thought out. A personal preference would seem to be the deciding factor as people do things differently and an advantage to one may not be important to another.

[Phil Thien]

I still say the two-hole Rockler jig has all these beat.

They pitch it for use on face frames. But with a little modification, it is great for all sorts of doweling.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=18059

Here is my original thread about the Rockler:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=96218

I gave a few of these as Christmas gifts to friends and they use 'em all the time. In fact, a few have come up w/ some additional fence designs that are pretty nifty.

[Darius Ferlas]

I have tinkered with a version of self centering dowel jig (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32250&cat=1,180,42311,42319) that I bought a couple months ago.

Some benefits of this jig are:



it is self centering (see drawbacks, below)
it is less expensive
it has built in clamping useful under some circumstances.
bushings are replaceable (in the model linked to above), no need to buy a different jig.
No need to buy a different jig ti change the bushing size. The same jig accepts various sizes at a cost lower than the entire jig.

Drawbacks:


unlike Joint Genie, it would be hard to use he jig for applications such as shelf support using dowels. This functionality can be somewhat emulated, albeit not fully.
it is self centering which is not so good when joining pieces of different thicknesses

I haven't come up with any ideas how to eliminate drawback #1 but the other one is not much of a problem.

My experiments with the jig were pretty simple. Simplistic in fact. It turns out I can do without Join Genie, and yet I can have most of its functionality.

All it takes is the removal of one of the jaws of the jig and voila, we have something that works just like Joint Genie.

Some observations I made:


If one jaw is removed then the offset can be adjusted at will within the parameters of the jig).Under this scenario a clamp had to be used (as shown in a photo)
If the jaw is not removed then the offset of the steel bar can be adjusted by turning the the nut on the threaded bolt.
If the offset is thus adjusted then it will be exactly the same for mated pieces if they are of the same thickness.
If the offset is thus adjusted then for pieces of different thicknesses the offsets will be as follows:

on the thinner piece "A" the steel bar will be offset as set by the position of the bolt
on the thicker piece "B" the offset will be one half of the difference if thicknesses between piece A and piece B.



The rest is explained with the equivalents of 1000 words. The measurements shown are not 100% precise as it is hard to hold a camera and the micrometer with a steady hand all at the same time, but they should give a pretty good idea as to how this works.

[Phil Thien]

Drawbacks:


unlike Joint Genie, it would be hard to use he jig for applications such as shelf support using dowels. This functionality can be somewhat emulated, albeit not fully.
it is self centering which is not so good when joining pieces of different thicknesses
I haven't come up with any ideas how to eliminate drawback #1 but the other one is not much of a problem.


Not too difficult. Take a scrap of wood the same thickness as the shelf, and as long as the shelves are deep.

This piece of wood should be just wide enough to be flush with the bottom of doweling jig when clamped within.

Now clamp the scrap onto the side of the carcase where you want to make the "tee" joint (a couple of brads or screws will work fine). Clamp the doweling jig onto the scrap, and drill your holes. Unscrew the scrap piece and move on.

[Darius Ferlas]

Thanks Phil.
I went ahead and tried that. Works like a charm.