Can I Engrave Copper?

[Janet Liddiard]

I know there are some other threads on similar subjects, but I didn't quite find what I was looking for.

I have a potential customer asking if I can photo engrave a family picture on copper. He then wants to frame it and it would be displayed in his home. I have an Epilog 35 watt machine.

So, I have lots of questions (please forgive any obvious ones):
1. Can we engrave on copper using Cermark? I know it's not a good idea to engrave on metals that would be cleaned with chemicals, but I think this would only be dusted over time. Would the engraving mark last?
2. If so, does anyone have great suppliers of copper? He wants an 8x10 sheet.
3. If copper isn't a good idea, is metalgraph (from rowmark) the closest alternative? And would it engrave well enough for a detailed photo?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

[Craig Hogarth]

I can't answer the first 2, but a good alternative would be bronze alumamark.

[James Rambo]

I have not had a need for copper sheeting, but I have a neighbor that has copper flashing on his roof. Maybe a roofing contractor would be a good place to start. I don't see why using cermark would not work on copper. I have some left over from a small remodel in the hospital I work at. I will give it a try. (I knew, when I picked it up,it would come in handy some day).

[Bill Cunningham]

I would go for the bronze alumamark as well. It won't rub off, and is probably less money than a same size sheet of copper! Hi res photos are no problem..

[James Rambo]

not ideal results (dirty and wrinkled copper sheet) quickley engraved. But it did work.

[Dan Hintz]

If this will go in a picture frame, consider picking up a sheet of PCB (printed circuit board) material. It's a fiberglass/resin backer board with a thin sheet of copper on it. Double-sided is often cheaper than single-sided, something to keep in mind when ordering. If you're willing to pay for shipping, they can be had in sheets as big as 4'x8', but the size you ask for is easily obtainable.

[AL Ursich]

That is interesting.... I have a 3 foot high stack of 18 x 24 copper circuit board material..... Always wanted to do something in Copper for the local Pocono Indian Museum store.... That might be the tickit...

Since the new Pressure Treated Lumber came out about 3 years ago the old Aluminum Flashing for Deck and porches won't work as the new wood and water will dissolve steel and aluminum. You must use Copper or Plastic Flashing now. So your local Home Supply Store will now stock it in 50 foot rolls of Copper.

Thanks,

AL

[Janet Liddiard]

Thank you all for such quick replies. This is very useful information. I think I'll give it a try on copper flashing and see how that works. You guys are great!

[Peck Sidara]

Janet,

I've engraved copper sheets using TherMark and a Helix 45W. You should have no problems with it adhering. High power, low speed @ 600DPI should work well.

However, I'm not sure if you can sucessfully engrave a family portrait using this method. Photo engraving utilizes the greyscales in the photo to transfer on the substrate. Using metal marking spray, I would think it's either going to adhere or not stick at all, providing very little detail of the photo.

If someone has done it, great. I'd like to know the results/process myself but never tried based on my thoughts above.

Alumamark or anodized aluminum are better options IMHO.

HTH,

[Sean Weir]

Hello Peck,

Cermark can be used to engrave photos on metals, I believe there is even a material setting in PhotoGrave for engraving photos with Cermark. The attached photo shows a picture of an elk we did here in the lab. (Sorry for the so-so quality pic) This was a 300 dpi image we engraved with a 45 watt CO2 system. We engraved at 500 dpi, 100% power and 30% speed. The image was imported directly into CorelDraw, we did brighten it up a bit before engraving.

Engraving on copper will take a good bit more power because copper is an excellent conductor of heat. It will act as a heat sink while you are trying to engrave. You have to compensate for this by slowing down the writing speed even more, usually writing at about 1/3 the speed you would write on stainless.

Sean

[Peck Sidara]

Thanks for the response Sean. I'll definitely note it and look to try it here in the near future. It's always good to get a response directly from the source.

[Richard Rumancik]

Engraving on copper will take a good bit more power because copper is an excellent conductor of heat. It will act as a heat sink while you are trying to engrave. You have to compensate for this by slowing down the writing speed even more, usually writing at about 1/3 the speed you would write on stainless.

I tried a brass tag once and did not have great success with Cermark but did not attempt to slow the laser down. Dan's idea of using PCB copper clad material is an interesting possibility. One-ounce copper clad (i.e. 1 oz. per square foot) has a layer about .0014" thick if I recall correctly. Since it isn't a solid copper mass it might be less of a heat sink. It would be necessary to get a piece that was scratch-free as there isn't a lot of material for sanding or polishing out scratches.

As the doubled-sided material is more readily available it also gives you a second choice (can pick the better surface).

Heating the material (be it copper sheet or a PCB sheet) externally while lasering may also help reduce the heat sinking effect. Perhaps some modified grill or warming tray? The heating needs to be uniform across the surface.

If anybody tries Cermark on PCB material please let us know the results . .

[Dan Hintz]

A pristine PCB should not need any scratch removal, but some of the bargains out there may. Boards also come in 1/2-ounce (if heat removal remains an issue) and 2-ounce (if you really want to work on removing scratches yourself). Others are available, but those should provide plenty of opportunities.

Another possibility (one I may try myself once the workshop is back up and running)... consider getting the entire board pre-coated in soldermask (that's the green stuff you normally see on PCBs... the fiberglass PCB itself is mostly a milky translucent color). The soldermask comes in a fairly wide range of colors, and you can often find it in several shades/hues of a particular color. In that case, you'll be lasering off the mask, not the copper itself. Spray a clearcoat after you're done to prevent oxidation, and the image should stay nice and pretty for many years to come. For my electronics products, the soldermask is black and any unmasked copper is gold-plated (I do it mostly for corrosion resistance, but it makes my logo really stand out against the black background).

[Janet Liddiard]

First, thanks again for all the help so far.

I wanted to post my results and if anyone has additional thoughts I'll try again.

I got some copper flashing from the Home Depot, but decided to return it and try something else because it was pretty bent up.

Next, I tried two other sources of copper. One was from a scrap metal shop (about 1/16 inch) and one was from craft store (about 1/32 inch). I applied the Cermark, a thin coat, and let it dry for about 20 minutes. Unfortunately, at 400 DPI, 10 speed and 100 power the markings wiped right off. I have to admit that I've never had much success with my limited attempts Cermark, so I may be doing something very wrong.

I tried Metalgraph and it's pretty good, but not the real deal like the customer wanted. Any suggestions are very welcome.

[Sean Weir]

Hello Janet,

I would try slowing the writing speed down even more. Copper is a difficult one, especially with 35 watts or less. On our 45 watt machine we've marked on .020 thickness copper at 100% power, 1% speed (0.4 in/s) at 500 DPI in order to get a good mark. It may even turn out that the job would take so long at that speed that it may not even be economicaly feasible for you.

Good luck, and if you have any other questions please let me know.

Sean

[Gary and Jessica Houghton]

Janet,
We have worked with Alumamark several times and have been pleased with the results. I strongly suggest this material. You can order it at www.laserbits.com.

[Luke Phillips]

If you have a stained glass shop in your area, see if they stock Venture Copper Foil in the 12x12 sheets. It's about $7 per sheet and 1.23 mil thick. You can use an iron to press out any creases in the copper.

[Gary Hair]

I think the problems people have with Cermark is primarily due to lasering too fast or too thick of a coating of Cermark. I was working on a huge piece of aluminum, 30" x 30", .375 thick, and had a hard time getting Cermark to stick. After I emailed and talked to Sean, I did some extensive testing. I asked Sean how to tell when you are going too slow and he sand it was when you get a grayish blue mark instead of black. I ran a series of test marks until I saw this color change. This told me exactly when I was too slow and gave me the optimal speed to laser this piece. It was very slow, but at least it stuck!

Now, whenever I have a new material to Cermark I run this test using a rectangle about 1/2" long by 1/8" tall.

The application of the Cermark is the other issue, thinner is better. I almost always use an airbrush to apply it, you can't brush it on as thin or consistently. I know I have enough when the material I is just visible through the Cermark. It's thin enough that I could probably see a pencil line on the substrate - I haven't tried that, but it might be a good way to practice your application.

Gary