A slightly different chisel question

[Duncan Potter]

Hi all

I'm trying to learn to hand cut dovetails. I find that after chopping out just a few tails, my Marple blue handles form a burr and I have to give them a quick swipe on a stone to bring the edge back somewhere right. I'm chopping walnut.

Is this normal, or a result of incorrect sharpening on my part, or the fact that the chisels are not the finest.

I use the scary sharp system and finish with 4000 and 8000 waterstones. The chisels seem very sharp when I finish a full sharpening session.

Thanks in advance.

[Mike Henderson]

Sounds normal to me. Edges don't last forever. You can try a steeper bevel (with a secondary bevel) but edge maintenance is normal. Most people keep a fine stone close by when doing chisel work.

Mike

[The Marples have a reputation for being a bit soft so that may contribute to it also.]

[Frank Drew]

I've never used those chisels, Duncan, but I think it's safe to say that a lot of modern, mass-produced edge tools aren't made of the best steel.

However, sometimes new chisels need a good workout and a few sharpenings to get to the best part of the material; also, too steep a bevel can leave the edge fragile. Of course I don't know if either if these two guesses apply in your case.

Quite a number of years ago I bought a set of Japanese chisels from an older Japanese carpenter I was working with; I think they were Ooichi (?) brand. I've never used finer chisels; they take extremely keen edges and hold them (the most important part). If you do a lot of work with chisels I'd recommend your considering Japanese tools, at least a few.

[David DeCristoforo]

If you are actually seeing a burr, that would indicate that the steel is too soft and the edge is "rolling over". Even with a "too steep" bevel, this should not happen.

[Terry Beadle]

I would recommend a 37 degree micro bevel. Not too 'micro' either. Should be about 3/32 wide to support the weaker steel. Those Marples are good daily users but the steel is just up to par with say a LN A2. I would even go higher on the bevel angle if it keeps rolling on you. But if it gets above 42 or so, you just need to buy one good A2 and you will see all the difference in the word quality. Get what you pay for, and Marpels are a still a good deal. Walnut isn't all that hard either. Try a Marples on some Cocobolo and be prepared for an instant one strike edge round over. Not fun.

Good luck!

[Jim Koepke]

I only have one Marples Blue handle chisel. It does not hold its edge like other chisels of the same size, 1/4 inch.

It was inexpensive at a yard sale, 50¢ with a lot of other stuff.

jim

[Bill Geyer]

Duncan,
Just buy the Lie-Nielsen chisels - eventually you will, and then you'l wonder what to do with all the others. Remember, all chisels need sharpening eventually, it's just a matter of how often you feel like doing it...

[Gary Herrmann]

I've rolled the edges of my marples, the steel really is pretty soft.

[glenn bradley]

That sounds about normal. My Marples do a good job for the price. "For the price" being the operative here. FWW did a review of 17 chisels and only the Pfeil came in behind the Marples. Not real impressive however, the Pfeil were over twice as much which was the point of the article:

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuidePDF.aspx?id=2616

So for about $10 a chisel they aren't bad and sharpen quickly (although frequently). You can get a worse chisel or one not much better for a lot more money so, shop carefully. Some surprises were the Craftsman at number 9 and the Sorby at number 14 (1 being best, 17 being worst).

Now, all that being said, FWW selected a band saw as the best of the bunch during a review when it was the only one that stalled during testing so, apply a grain of salt here. Better chisels are definitely better, its just that price is not always the indicator. I would take the input from the actual users here at the Creek over just about any formal review.

[Thom Sturgill]

Just as a counter point, I have a set of Czech chisels that chipped the first time I used them - too hard. I had to reshape the edge to sharpen, I didn't have a decent grinder set up yet, so it took a while with sandpaper before I could go back to the stones... I would have preferred the burr.

Ask any chef or butcher and they will tell you they use a steel to sharpen their knives EVERY time they use them. I would not expect paring chisel usage to be much different.

[Dan Barr]

Marples are what i began with and I had a similar experience when i started out. I increased the bevel to 30 degrees and if im working on something like cocobolo, i'll put a 35 or 40 degree microbevel.

cocobolo is no joke. I couldnt believe how quick it nullified my edge. I was actually entertaining the idea of carving a border in cocobolo until i takk a minute and played with a practice piece. i would have had to sharpen after every few cuts.

have fun

dan

[Duncan Potter]

Thanks all. So for now I'll put a steeper bevel on the Marples....

and go looking for some good chisels. Since I live in Maine, I always incline towards Lie Nielsen.

Any serious problems with them? Should I look at japanese instead?

Thanks

[Joe Close]

I have a set. When I purchased them, I thought they will get me buy for a while. I used them for the first time this weekend on some hard maple. What a depressing joke. They not only dull up quick, but the would get nicks and chips in the blade. I was using the factory grind (25 degree), but had put a nice hone on them. It was really frustrating to have to re-hone, deal with blade chiping, etc. Already time to upgrade! Although, I might try a different angle on the grind, as some have mentioned above, to see how that plays out.

[Ruston Hughes]

I have a set. When I purchased them, I thought they will get me buy for a while. I used them for the first time this weekend on some hard maple. What a depressing joke. They not only dull up quick, but the would get nicks and chips in the blade. I was using the factory grind (25 degree), but had put a nice hone on them. It was really frustrating to have to re-hone, deal with blade chiping, etc. Already time to upgrade! Although, I might try a different angle on the grind, as some have mentioned above, to see how that plays out.

Joe, you're getting edge failure. Try an angle of 30-35*. If you use a microbevel you can experiment without a lot of regrinding. I grind my Marples at 33* and they hold up pretty well for light chopping (dovetails, etc.) in domestic hardwood. I'll typically touch up the edge after about a dozen tails/pins.

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks all. So for now I'll put a steeper bevel on the Marples....

and go looking for some good chisels. Since I live in Maine, I always incline towards Lie Nielsen.

Any serious problems with them? Should I look at Japanese instead?

Thanks
The Japanese chisels have been available to western woodworkers for a long time but most woodworkers prefer western chisels. I think this is because the Japanese chisels are too hard for most western woodworking. You have to be careful with Japanese chisels compared to western chisels or the edge will chip, which then requires more major sharpening.

If you want some very good chisels - especially compared to the Marples blue handle - look on eBay for some older chisels, such as Witherby, Barton, Swan (expensive), and maybe older Buck. They are regular carbon steel, but generally well heat treated so that they take a good edge and hold it for a decent interval. The Witherby's, especially, are readily available and quite good.

The LN's are excellent, also, but probably a bit more expensive than what you could buy older chisels for.

If you later decide you don't like the older chisels and want to buy the LNs, you can easily sell the older chisels. Their price goes up every year.

Mike

[David DeCristoforo]

"...Japanese chisels are too hard for most western woodworking. You have to be careful with Japanese chisels compared to western chisels or the edge will chip..."

I gotta play "devil's advocate" here. It's true that Japanese chisels are much harder than "western" chisels and it's also true that they can chip. But good Japanese chisels are so superior in every other respect that I would have to say that the advantages far outweigh any shortcomings including their typically higher cost.

[Wilbur Pan]

What David said. It depends on which Japanese chisel you are looking at.

Or to look at it another way, to make a statement like, "Japanese chisels are too hard for most western woodworking. You have to be careful with Japanese chisels compared to western chisels or the edge will chip," is like saying, "Western chisels are too soft for most woodworking, and will roll their edge," based on the experience of the OP with his Marples blue handled chisels.

I've had very good experiences with the Fujihiro chisels, available from Hida Tool, which are a good middle of the pack chisel, somewhat like Steel City compared to Grizzly and Minimax. These chisels didn't chip when I made a project from various South American woods.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm not a big fan of Japanese chisels so I'll play "angel's advocate" (since David is playing "Devil's advocate") and give the reasons I don't like them.

A Japanese chisel is made from a layer of medium carbon steel, with a backing of very low carbon steel - so low that the backing will not harden with heat treatment. The carbon steel in a Japanese chisel is similar to the carbon steel in older western chisels, such as Witherby, et al.

When heat treating carbon steel, there are two major aspects of the final product: hardness and toughness. Hardness is the ability of the steel to maintain its shape without deformation. Toughness is the ability of the steel to absorb shock without fracture. Hardness and toughness have an inverse relationship - that is, if you make regular carbon steel harder, it is not as tough. If you make it very tough, it will not be as hard.

The steel in Japanese chisels is made harder (through heat treatment) than western chisels and the iron backing is used to make the overall chisel tougher - so the chisel itself will not break if stressed in certain ways. While the iron backing provides this advantage for the overall tool, the edge does not have any backing and is just carbon steel. This is the reason that Japanese chisels should not be sharpened to as acute an angle as many western chisels are sharpened to - while a western chisel might be sharpened to a 25* angle, the Japanese chisel should be sharpened to a 30-35* angle in order to reduce edge chipping.

The harder the steel is made in a Japanese chisel, the longer the edge will last but the more likely it will chip. Some Japanese chisels are made with the edge steel less hard (closer to the hardness of western chisels) and those edges are not as likely to chip. But if you're going to soften the edge of a Japanese chisel, you could just as well use a western chisel. So the net is that hardness/toughness is a tradeoff.

I'll note here that laminated chisels and plane blades were made in the west in the 18th and 19th centuries (and probably before that) by laminating a steel edge to a wrought iron body. If an extremely hard edge was of value in western woodworking, our western ancestors would have begun producing the tools that way.

All the Japanese chisels I've used have been too hard and it was too easy to chip the edge. And when you chip the edge, you have a big sharpening job on your hands, not just some honing.

When I talk to people who are Japanese tool advocates, they always have reasons for my bad experience with the tools. If only I would buy xyz Japanese tools, I'd have an outstanding experience with the tool and would be converted. But so far, no conversions have occurred for me.

The other thing I don't like about Japanese chisels is the handle. Japanese chisel handles are hooped and the end of the chisel is uncomfortable in my hand when I'm using the chisel with hand pressure (not striking it with a hammer).

My preference in chisels is for a western chisel with a socket handle so that I can easily make my own handles for the tools. So far, my favorite chisels are older western chisels, such as Witherby, Swan, DR Barton, and New Haven Edge Tools, and the LN chisels as new chisels.

Personally, for someone who has only had experience with Marples blue handle chisels, I'd recommend (as I did above) the older western chisels and the LN chisels before I'd recommend spending the large sums required for name brand Japanese chisels.

Once you have more experience, you should try Japanese chisels just so you know what they are and their advantages and disadvantages. But I do not recommend them as a beginning set.

Mike

[Peter Quadarella]

It sounds like a pretty straightforward trade off. Stronger blade, less sharpening, but greater possibility of chipping which would cause more sharpening. If that is the case, theoretically if someone learned to work with Japanese chisels well over time and grew to know the point where pressure would chip the blade, they could get the benefit but not the downside. No? Of course, the chisels might not be as well rounded - you'd have to be much more careful with them.

I liked your writeup Mike, very informative; the only part I didn't follow was the bit about "If an extremely hard edge was of value in western woodworking, our western ancestors would have begun producing the tools that way." That argument could be given for Eastern woodworkers too (especially since they've been doing it a lot longer).

[Mike Henderson]

I liked your writeup Mike, very informative; the only part I didn't follow was the bit about "If an extremely hard edge was of value in western woodworking, our western ancestors would have begun producing the tools that way." That argument could be given for Eastern woodworkers too (especially since they've been doing it a lot longer).
I think the main difference is the kind of wood the western and eastern woodworkers worked with. In the west, furniture makers worked primarily with hardwoods - and early on (17th century and earlier), it was a lot of oak.

In Japan, they worked primarily with softwoods (don't know the exact woods).

I had a hand tools teacher that claimed that hard chisels were best used with softer woods and softer chisels were best used with hardwoods. I don't know if there was any science behind his claims but that's what he believed and he had a lot of experience.

Based on my teacher's theory, both eastern and western woodworkers chose the best tool for their work - which is what you'd expect.

Mike

[To comment on your other point, I think that's exactly correct. People who know how to use Japanese chisels can get good performance out of them. I just don't believe they're the best for beginners in western woodworking.]

[David DeCristoforo]

Well, I'm not gonna write that much stuff but I will concede that I should have said "for me" the advantages outweigh the shortcomings. I "fell in love" with Japanese chisels the first time I used them and since that time, in my shop, "western style" chisels have been interchangeable with pry bars, glue scrappers, ice picks, etc.... I might add that I work with a lot of really hard woods and I get super clean cuts for much longer between sharpenings. And, yes, I have had to work out some nicks on the edges from time to time as well as smack a few employees in the back of the head when they reached for one of my Japanese chisels at the wrong moment.... But what the heck. If everyone agreed on everything there would not be much fun in discussing anything would there?

[John Thompson]

I just used a set of Marples "blue beaters" to chop out 96 tails and 96 pins. I run approximately a 37* angle and had to strop them aobut every 30 tails or pins completed. Takes only a minute and did not have an edge roll on poplar.

They would roll about half way through using hard-wood from my experience with them. But doesn't take to long to re-sharpen using scary sharp as I mainly use a 1/4" and 3/8". The Marples are quite a bit shorter than when I first starting using them as they have been re-sharpened many times. Still going strong at this point and I have a set of Ashley Isles to back them up as they get the call for general work.

But.. I must add that the "blue beaters" were puchased in 1974 and Marples used some very high quality Birmingham steel in those days. I paid around $26 for a set so they haven't gone up much.. but the quality has come down drastically from what I've seen.

Still... not bad for the money!

Sarge..

[Dan Barr]

I think that the whole japanese chisel issue can be summed up this way.

If you were to try to use a japanese chisel to chop a dovetail on cocobolo, you'd be up $#!+ creek after the first mallet blow. (much less lignum vitae)

for Oak and other american hardwoods, japanese chisels are on the edge of the envelope and western chisels are a well balanced traditional favorite.

just my two cents.

cheers,

dan

[Frank Drew]

I'm firmly in the Japanese chisel camp, at least if we're discussing tools that are readily available. But where possible for dovetails (all tails, and pins on through dovetails) I always used a band saw to waste most of the material, with final paring to the line done with chisels. It takes too long otherwise.

I've seen a Japanese saw break on the job, once, but never the edge of a chisel in the hands of an experienced user. Doesn't mean it can't happen, of course, but it's not like these things are made of porcelain.

As a side note, I'm not a huge fan of secondary bevels on chisels (Western style plane blades, maybe), but I absolutely don't think they can be done well by hand, that is, without a guide that keeps the tool at a consistent angle. IMO, the human hasn't been born who can create and control a 1/32"-1/16" microbevel solely with his or her hands/wrists/forearms. Micro rounding over is really what's happening if you're using the "finally, the tilt the tool up a degree or two" method.

[Wilbur Pan]

I think that the whole japanese chisel issue can be summed up this way.

If you were to try to use a japanese chisel to chop a dovetail on cocobolo, you'd be up $#!+ creek after the first mallet blow. (much less lignum vitae)

Um, no.

Look here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=83526).

[Mark Singer]

Instead of buying a set, try a couple Japanese and a couple of western chisels. This way you can make up your own mind. One thing is technique. Chop in lighter passes removing the waste more often. This way the edge lasts a lot longer. About 1/8" deep each time is pretty good.