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View Full Version : But sir it's 100% acrylics~!!



Cliff Rohrabacher
04-25-2008, 3:40 PM
Yah Yah sure sure all it is is a way to cost me money and give me bupkiss because some feel good politician wanted to pander to a certain group.

I want alkyd paint for my deck's hand rails, toe boards and and pokers (that had to be less than 4" apart). The things they think of to protect us from. Oh thank heaven. I don't know how the race survived all those thousands of years without all these rules regs and laws.

Well at any rate they can't sell alkyd in in my state. The Moore dealer swears by their 100% acrylic - which I suspect is really just latex paint. Probably the same latex paint that fell off like a cheap shower curtain the last time I tried it.

Any one have any "real" experience with Moore's brand-spanky-newly-re-labled 100% Acrylic exterior paint? Ya know "real" as in you put it on 5 years ago it's seen all manner of weather and it's still like new or fell off the first year ~ ~ ~ or whatever~?

I'm trying to convince myself that I really don't have to drive across the border to get a real paint.

Jay Jolliffe
04-25-2008, 4:37 PM
The trim on my house is western red ceder. I primed it with a product made by zinzeer called cover stain which is oil base. Sanded and painted three coats of the BM acrylic trim paint. That was three years ago & now it looks like the day I put it on. I painted houses for over 20 yrs & would of never thought of using any acrylic paint out side. It's made a lot better now & where I live they don't sell oil base exterior trim paint.

Steve Schoene
04-25-2008, 8:46 PM
What state are you in? In most places, except California regulations would allow you to by alkyd paint as long as you did so in quarts or liters. If your dealer doesn't sell it, it is probably his call, or perhaps fear mongering from distributors, either or both wanting to have an excuse to reduce sku's.

Jim Becker
04-25-2008, 9:27 PM
BM's 100% acrylic Impervo for interior is darn good...and it's not a latex paint. The MooreGlo (http://www.benjaminmoore.com/bmpsweb/portals/bmps.portal?_nfpb=true&_windowLabel=contentrenderer_1_3&contentrenderer_1_3_actionOverride=%2Fbm%2Fcms%2FC ontentRenderer%2FrenderContent&contentrenderer_1_3currentNodeUUID=%2FBEA+Reposito ry%2F48040&contentrenderer_1_3NodeUUID=%2FBEA+Repository%2F48 032&_pageLabel=fh_findproducts) is a 100% acrylic and is likely a very good product. Lifetime warranty.

We just used SW Duration (http://www.sherwin-williams.com/do_it_yourself/sherwin_williams_products/exterior_house_paint/paints/) for all of our exterior trim painting on both the addition and the house. Awesome stuff. And you can't beat the guarantee...yet another lifetime warranty; at least as long as you own your home. Our painters (outstanding pros) do not use anything oil based any more.

As an aside, we used the new BM Aura matt for our interior walls. Feels like plaster and is completely washable. (Pencil erasers work nicely, too) Very hard surface due to the addition of silica to the mixture. Ching...ching...but worth every penny.

Jason Roehl
04-26-2008, 5:22 AM
Cliff, exterior acrylic paints have been excellent and getting better for a dozen years or more now. That's where all the R&D is nowadays. The bottom line is that they don't chalk and fade like oil, are quicker drying, there are low-temp versions and they stay flexible through the seasons much, much longer than oil-based exterior paints.

Sherwin's Duration is really good stuff, I have put many, many gallons of it on houses and will continue to do so. One of the S-W reps even told me that it gets spec'd by architects for interior hand rails in commercial settings now. It's pricey, but labor is much more of the cost...

Cliff Rohrabacher
04-27-2008, 9:41 AM
What state are you in?

I am in the California of the East coast: NJ.

*******In most places, except California regulations would allow you to by alkyd paint as long as you did so in quarts or liters. If your dealer doesn't sell it, it is probably his call,[/quote]

Here in the lovely beautiful down town NJ we have at least 6 laws against everything.

I'm sure there's a law against going to your mailbox and another making it a felony to take a bath.

But We aren't the only people suffering so. I know of a woman in PA whose husband was recently deceased and in the middle of the night she heard a ruckus in the barn. Taking her husband's rifle she went out to investigate. She found a bear attacking the animals So she shot it.

She made the mistake of calling Fish and Game in the morning. PA fish and game charged her with failure to skin and preserve the meat and a couple other charges seeking to imprison her for a year. The local prosecutor ran with it. They failed but that didn't stop them from trying. Cost her about $20-Gees to defend.

I'm sure I may get life with no parole for using Alkyd smuggled in from over the border.

They have prohibited asphalt driveway sealers in NJ all you can do here is latex.

Cliff Rohrabacher
04-27-2008, 9:45 AM
OK Jim, Jason, & Jay: I'll give the new paints a try. But if it fails and the paint peels, you owe me a beer.
Fair enough~?

Jason Roehl
04-27-2008, 4:44 PM
I'd give you a beer anyway. Come and get it! :D

I should mention, though, that peeling paint is rarely failure of the paint itself, but moisture intrusion/pressure from behind or inadequate substrate preparation prior to painting. ;) The inability of cured oil/alkyd coatings to flex with substrate seasonal movement contributes to the first mode of failure sooner rather than later.

Cliff Rohrabacher
04-27-2008, 8:43 PM
I'd give you a beer anyway. Come and get it! :D

Gracias Amigo. I'll be right there.



I should mention, though, that peeling paint is rarely failure of the paint itself, but moisture intrusion/pressure from behind

That was the reason I went with a 2 component catalyzing urethane for the deck boards cause they are only 6" off a flat roof and they almost never dry out all the way.


The inability of cured oil/alkyd coatings to flex with substrate seasonal movement contributes to the first mode of failure sooner rather than later.

That's what the paint salesman says too. While it makes perfect sense, the latex paints I've used in years past were good for nothing at all if used out of doors.

Rob Will
04-28-2008, 12:23 AM
I'm baffled by not using latex paints outside :confused:.
Around here the only place we use oil based paints (on wood) is interior trim.

Latex house paint has been superior to oil-based house paint for many years. Jason listed all the right reasons.

Rob

Russ Filtz
04-28-2008, 7:51 AM
The only latex I ever used outside on trim peeled like a bad sunburn. It was a good brand too and the base was prepped well. This was 5-yrs ago and had assumed the new latex was up to the hype. I now tend to stick oil based outside.

is oil based really all that bad for the environment? I tend to use single-use brushes so i don't end up with gobs of contaminated solvent. The dried brush is extra solid waste I guess. But what about all the GALLONS of latex paint contaminated water everytime you clean your latex brushes? That has to go somewhere and be treated, or not. Do VOC's harm the environment, or just your health indoors?

Cliff Rohrabacher
04-28-2008, 9:02 AM
The only latex I ever used outside on trim peeled like a bad sunburn. It was a good brand too and the base was prepped well. This was 5-yrs ago and had assumed the new latex was up to the hype. I now tend to stick oil based outside.

That was my experience. The stuff just failed.


is oil based really all that bad for the environment?No. It isn't bad. It used to be bad back in the day when every one - including the factories - tossed everything in the local waterway, land fill, or pond etc..


I tend to use single-use brushes so i don't end up with gobs of contaminated solvent. The dried brush is extra solid waste I guess.
I have a tall narrow SST 5 Gallon tank into which I have put a few gallons of diesel fuel. All my brushes get soaked suspended in that tank till they are clean enough that one mineral spirits wash does 'em and then the mineral spirits gets set aside to settle out and reused. So I end up disposing of almost zero solvent material.


But what about all the GALLONS of latex paint contaminated water everytime you clean your latex brushes? That has to go somewhere and be treated, or not. Isn't that like mother's milk?


Do VOC's harm the environment, or just your health indoors?

Both. VOCs tend not to break down easily. They can burn off and become harmless though. Granted they are naturally occurring products for the most part being cracked out of petroleum and that is a naturally occurring entity (if ever there was one). However, the single best argument about VOCs as a hazard ( aside from their demonstrated health and environmental effects) is that when they were in the oil underground they weren't in the water, the soil, or air.

Steve Schoene
04-28-2008, 10:05 AM
I did check a bit at the NJDEP web pages and did find the regulation that applies. It is the NJ Administrative Code N.J.A.C. title 7 section 23.1(d)3 that exempts material sold in containers of 1 liter or less from coverage under the rules.

Seems to me the folks who should be complained to are the retailers.

Cliff Rohrabacher
04-28-2008, 3:34 PM
I did check a bit at the NJDEP web pages and did find the regulation that applies. It is the NJ Administrative Code N.J.A.C. title 7 section 23.1(d)3 that exempts material sold in containers of 1 liter or less from coverage under the rules.

Imagine trying to paint a lot of surface area forced to purchase and use quarts?




Seems to me the folks who should be complained to are the retailers.And the legislators.

Back in school the text book cases on how communities made porn illegal without running a-fowl of the first Amendment was by zoning it into non existence and providing a tiny microscopic lousy few square feet in the most unworthy part of the municipality where you could build the porn shop. Maybe the center of a swamp or in between train tracks where no road went. That sort of thing.
Of course no one could realistically build a shop in the places allocated but, no one cared (courts included) about the logical impossibility so long as the theoretical possibility existed under law.


This is similar. The state is avoiding a commerce clause violation by making it available - except that no one among the chain from manufacturing to consumer wants to pick up the tab for the additional packaging. So it's unavailable.

Steve Schoene
04-28-2008, 5:59 PM
Most of the woodworking finishing products that we use are purchased in quarts anyway so the legislators made it easy to make them available in the ssame packages that most of them have always been sold in. If the retailers want to play games that's a different thing altogether.

Sure there are plenty of cases where homeowners would buy gallons, almost entirely with respect to house painting. But, as so many on the thread indicated, for house and trim paint the loc VOC options are already pretty good. That part of the coatings market has been working on it for a long time largely because oil based paint without lead isn't nearly as good as with, making it easy for waterborne to catch up and pass oil-based.

It's hard to deal with serious and significant issues, such as global warming, without stepping on some toes anywhere. And, of course going after the easy things to deal with is always going to be done, even if they aren't the most quantatively most important.

Cliff Rohrabacher
04-28-2008, 6:22 PM
Most of the woodworking finishing products that we use are purchased in quarts anyway so the legislators made it easy to make them available in the ssame packages that most of them have always been sold in. If the retailers want to play games that's a different thing altogether.

Yah but I'm painting a lot of surface out of doors and going through gallons at a clip.


That part of the coatings market has been working on it for a long time largely because oil based paint without lead isn't nearly as good as with, making it easy for waterborne to catch up and pass oil-based.

I knew finely particulate lead was good for something.


It's hard to deal with serious and significant issues, such as global warming, without stepping on some toes anywhere.

While I'm as happy as the next guy to curb and end pollution I don't think Anthropogenic climate change is a reality.


And, of course going after the easy things to deal with is always going to be done, even if they aren't the most quantatively most important.

Didn't Peron so wonderfully say that "politics is the art of the possible" ~?
Never ask a politician to do something hard.