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Reed Wells
04-24-2008, 7:09 PM
Well I just did the year end (winter) analysis of the heating bills for my home and shop. A four month average was $849.28 per month. That is using hi efficiency propane furnaces in both locations. My shop is about 2400 sq ft, the house about 1600. Both are insulated to the max. You have to understand something here, I live in the middle of the Nicolet National Forest. I can buy ten full cords of hard maple for about $800.00.
I have put it off for the last couple of years because of the mess and not wanting to be loading the stove when its 30 below. Any suggestions on brands, suppliers, things to look for, and things to stay away from. Any and all suggestions will give me that much more knowledge when I research.

Richard M. Wolfe
04-24-2008, 7:20 PM
Reed, I'd be interested in reading what you find out. A friend and I have a shipping container and a 40x60 shop 20 ft apart. We want to put a wood fired furnace between them and make the container (or at least part of it) into a kiln and channel heat to the shop also.

I have done some reading on it. If you will go to the Woodweb site and use appropriate search terms there's a good bit there also.

Cliff Rohrabacher
04-24-2008, 7:58 PM
You can get more out of your stove if you use a water jacket stove like Vermont Castings has and put a circulator pump and some cast iron radiators around the shop.

Of course you'd need to either run antifreeze in it or keep the shop above freezing all the time.

If you can get an older stove you may be able to get around the catylatic converter problem.

Joe Pelonio
04-24-2008, 9:58 PM
Have you considered geothermal? A friend has a relative in that business that's helping install it. It may cost upward of $20,000 but the only ongoing cost is the electricity to run the pump and fan, and also produces the home's hot water. He expects payback within 5 years. We don't plan to stay here that long enough or I'd consider it. here you cannot heat your home with wood, it's illegal, though out in the country a lot of people do it.


Like this system:

http://www.actionmech.biz/geo.html

Bryan Cowing
04-25-2008, 4:51 AM
I see a lot of them in my area here in Ontario. The wood show here in the fall always has dealers demonstrating them. Check this out.
http://www.woodheat.org/technology/outrickperth.htm

James Suzda
04-25-2008, 5:55 AM
Just so you know that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to burning wood, I've been heating my home(s) by a wood fire for over 45 years. The last time I bought fuel oil, it was 17 cents a gallon!!! Plus I have no gas/oil/or electric backup now and the only way I stay warm is by my wood fired boiler. BTW, my boiler is in my basement and has been there for over 20 years. (Outside boilers were not available when I installed my system.) My son has used an outside boiler for about 10 years so he has one of the earlier designs. His had rusted out where the smoke stack was exposed to the weather, so this is something you have to look for when buying an outside boiler.
Be aware there is a lot more to burning wood than the problem of going outside when it is -30 with the wind blowing at 20 mph! Before this you have to cut, split and stack the wood before the heating season starts. As for the mess, you will always have bark, and scraps to clean up in the spring. Plus you will have to find a place to safely dispose of the ash. Don't forget you must be physically able to go out and fire up the stove at least once a day. Plus you will get bruised, cut, scratched, and sore just trying to stay warm.
You don't mention how close your neighbors are, but here where I live, the Village passed an ordnance whereas any outside stove must have a 20 foot chimney. Also, I've heard some "rumblings" that WI might ban woodstoves in the future.
Installing an outside boiler involves burying the water pipes and insulating them well. I've never heard or seen a outside stove that heats by forced air, so it is the most efficient if your buildings are heated with water. If you have a forced air system you can put a big register in your cold air return and incorporate your forced air system to heat your home.
Some of the advantages are you can burn your garbage all winter long and realize some heat from your garbage. You can put a preheater on your water heater and not have to pay for your domestic hot water.
This posting of mine is getting quite lengthly and if you want more info of my experiences of burning wood, just send me a PM.

Jason Roehl
04-25-2008, 7:33 AM
A close friend of mine has an outdoor wood-fired boiler and radiant heat throughout his '20s-'30s poorly insulated, drafty farmhouse. His first couple years with the boiler he used an A-coil of sorts to hook his boiler into his forced-air gas furnace until he got the radiant tubing installed. Basically, I'm not impressed by the boiler. The water is above the fire, so if the water gets cool, the fire cannot be efficient in the least (this is true of most water-jacket designs on the market). When it is cold, they have to feed the beast at least twice a day, and even when they feed it before bed, the house will drop into the 50s (ºF) by morning. Plus, they can not seem to get ahead on seasoned wood. Often they are splitting a week's worth at a time and going straight to the fire with it. A year's supply would take up much of their yard. On top of that, the boiler is not doing well in the weather. The jacket needs to be welded every now and then and the blower motor is not well shielded from the elements. Nevermind it is a pain to do anything within about 100' of the thing if the wind is blowing the wrong direction.

I'd look long and hard at other options (I burned wood for 8-9 years in a fireplace insert myself).

Jim Becker
04-25-2008, 7:42 AM
Bill Grumbine has an outdoor unit that heats both the house and the shop, I believe.

Matt Meiser
04-25-2008, 7:54 AM
I have an aunt and uncle in east-central Missouri with one and they really like it. However the climate there is a little more mild than northern Wisconsin. My uncle is a contractor and brings home all wood scrap, plus any trees they take down during construction. I think he still has to buy some. There's is an arrangement similar to what Jason described. They have an air handler with electric heat and coils for AC and the boiler water. Theirs provides their hot water and heat to his shop as well, and they still have one spare circuit which could be used for a pool or hot tub.

Mike Sheppard
04-25-2008, 7:57 AM
I have worked on two of them, both had fan units and zone coils in the ducts, they were also installed in out buildings and sent hot water to the coils that are controled by stats in the zones, that way they turn up or down as needed at the time.
They were installed back when I worked in the early 90's and are in use today. They have their own wood lots here in Michigan and say they are glad they did it.
Mike

Kyle Kraft
04-25-2008, 10:29 AM
Several of my colleagues have OWBs and have had good success with them. One of my buddies has a huge OWB and he loads it with a skid steer w/ fork attachment. That thing has about a 30x36 door in it.

Many townships in my county have or are considering restrictions on OWBs. They are talking about 35' stacks, 5 acre minimum lot size, setbacks, etc. The village of Decatur has outlawed them in the city limits.

Check into the wood gasification boilers. I get an alternative energy magazine and I've seen a couple advertised in there. I think the name is Greenwood technology or something. It's supposed to hardly smoke at all.

James Suzda
04-25-2008, 10:40 AM
Another option to look into would be a unit that is called a Hahsa. If I had the room I'd build one of these and it would be big enough to put a whole pallet load of wood into in one shot.
What these units do is to super heat the surrounding sand in which all your heat pipes are buried. You can have hot air pipes, water pipes, or whatever.
Check it out.

George Skinner
04-25-2008, 3:27 PM
I have been looking into a "Garn" wood boiler. It is rather large and has to be inside a building but I would only need to burn it once or twice a day. It has a 2000 gallon water storage tank that is heated while you burn wood then the water is used to heat your house. Since you are burning a very hot fire there is little to no smoke and it only burns for a short time and not smoldering all day.

I am still working the numbers but according to what propane I use it should pay for itself within 3 to 5 years.

Here is a link to the website if interested:
http://garn.com/Default.aspx/index.html

Brian Elfert
04-26-2008, 10:56 PM
I second the reply about geothermal.

I did an analysis last year comparing the per BTU cost of electric resistance, natural gas, and propane for heat. Propane was maybe $2 a gallon back then and electric at 10 cents per KW won out over propane. Natural gas is the least expensive of the three, but not all areas have natural gas service. Geothermal is less money for operating costs than just about anything, but the inital expense is sky high.

I'm looking to buy a different house or a lot and one requirement is either natural gas service or the ability to add geothermal heat. My worst netural gas bill now is about $225 when it is is really cold (below 0F) and propane would probably cost double.

Kyle Kraft
04-29-2008, 12:52 PM
Update: Here is a link to the OWB ordinance in Texas township. There was a meeting on 4.28.08 but the results were not covered in any of the local news outlets that I could find. I did a Yahoo search and found this http://www.texastownship.org/Updates/OutdoorFurnacePrint.htm Makes for some interesting reading.

Reed Wells
04-29-2008, 7:14 PM
Kyle, Did you notice this in the code? "No outdoor furnace shall be used from April 15 through October 15, inclusive, in any year. " I don't know about you all but, we at times have ice on the lakes on Oct. 15. This is another dumb code instuted just because they could. IMO

Jason Roehl
04-29-2008, 7:48 PM
Here's a funny one I found in there:


2) Every outdoor furnace shall be located at least 500 feet from any dwelling owned by another in existence or for which a building permit has been issued at the time an application for an outdoor furnace permit is applied for.

And, right after it:


Every outdoor furnace shall be located at least 50 feet from any property line and shall have a chimney (also referred to as a “stack”) that extends at least 15 feet above the grade plane and at least 2 feet higher than the height of the highest roof peak of any dwelling (owned by one other than the owner of the outdoor furnace) located within 500 feet. (italics mine, bold original)

How can the stack be two feet higher than a dwelling that's within 500 feet if it's not supposed to be within 500 feet of another dwelling in the first place? :confused: :rolleyes: :cool:

Joe Chritz
04-29-2008, 8:31 PM
I know someone who switched to an outdoor burner with water coils and he likes it a lot. For the money he has into it he could have geothermal for about the same cost per BTU with 1% of the work.

I looked at them seriously last year and decided to wait. I heat the shop with a small stove and even that amount of cutting is a pain.

I know lots of guys that buy semi loads of slab wood to burn. It works great since you can cut the to full length of the burner and fill it up easy.

Wood is a nice heat that isn't costly but has a lot of "other" expense. Plenty of labor if nothing else.

Joe

Kyle Kraft
04-30-2008, 3:09 PM
Yes Reed, I noticed that because many folks around here use their OWB's for year round domestic water heating and heating their pools in the summer. A water to water heat exchanger is required for both the above applications.