General 650 vs. PM 2000

[Dan Lautner]

I can get the new General 650 w. riving knife for $2600. Can anyone comment or give input that might help in my decision. The Jet looks very similar to the PM but is a few hundred less. The saw stop is out of the running due to price. Thanks in advance.


My observations so far:

General
1. Baldor motor
2. castings and tops are top notch.

PM
1. Larger table top
2. built in mobility

[Dan Owen]

Take the General without question. Without going into detail, better castings, quality control and customer service. I own a General 350 and my buddy has the PM2000. Trust me on this.

Dan

[Dan Lautner]

"Take the General without question. Without going into detail, better castings, quality control and customer service. I own a General 350 and my buddy has the PM2000. Trust me on this."

I have heard about a few problems with the PM 2000. Did your buddy have a problem with the table top?

[Mark Carlson]

Dan,

Another vote for the 650 over the PM2000. I was looking at the Unisaw, PM66 and General when I was in the market a couple of years ago (pre SawStop). I couldn't find a negative review for the General so I bought the 650. The General isn't a popular machine for some reason but it well worth the extra money.

My current preference if I was in the market would be Sawstop, General 650 w/ riving knife, then the PM 2000.

Good luck with your decision.
~mark

[Tom Godley]

I have a PM2000 -- it is way more saw than I need.

I have had no issues with it.

I think I paid $2200.00 delivered with a few extras free. Everything fit together and I really like the caster system.

I am sure as a hobiest I would have been happy with a less expensive saw -- and a more expensive one two.

You can go crazy with trying to make a decision.

I liked the idea that the General was made in North America, but at the time it did not have the knife. I also liked that fact that the PM was a newly designed saw.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

I'm also very happy with my PM2000. Paid $1980 delivered.

[Joe Mioux]

Let's see, sawstop $2799, plus $369 for the fence. plus $29 for ZC insert..

Is a Sawstop really that far off?

this does not include shipping so add $525.

you are $600 higher with the SS than the 650, not counting shipping.

However, there are the other goodies, that are truly optional at this point.

such as and additional break at $69, a dado breatk at $89, the extension table (which is really really nice, but not necessary) at $99, and a dado ZCI insert at $29.

I love General CA stuff, but......???

joe

addendum oops i did forget.. SAwstop shipping policy they ship to your local supplier for $375, but will add an additional $150 for home delivery. so you do need to add atleast $375 to the extra $600 irregardless.

[Joe Jensen]

Let's see, sawstop $2799, plus $369 for the fence. plus $29 for ZC insert..

Is a Sawstop really that far off?

this does not include shipping so add $525.

you are $600 higher with the SS than the 650, not counting shipping.

However, there are the other goodies, that are truly optional at this point.

such as and additional break at $69, a dado breatk at $89, the extension table (which is really really nice, but not necessary) at $99, and a dado ZCI insert at $29.

I love General CA stuff, but......???

joe

addendum oops i did forget.. SAwstop shipping policy they ship to your local supplier for $375, but will add an additional $150 for home delivery. so you do need to add atleast $375 to the extra $600 irregardless.

Sounds like in your situation the SawStop didn't make sense.

[Mike Gabbay]

Joe - I think you lost me on your post... maybe the coffee has not kicked in this morning.:p

The SS would be around $1200 more than the General. $600 + $525 shipping + $99 table. The General comes with the table.

Personally, I got mine below the regular price and paid $2400 plus $60 for delivery.

I gave a lot of thought to the SS and other saws. IMHO I think the SS has it's place in a production shop and in school settings. For the hobbiest, if you practice safe techniques and use a guard then I don't see that much more value with the brake system. Most accidents are a result of kick back and not getting cut by the blade. Personally, I have a very healthy respect for power tools with tungsten teeth! :eek:

My 2 cents...

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Joe - I think you lost me on your post... maybe the coffee has not kicked in this morning.:p



Don't feel bad. I read it three times & I still don't get it. :confused:

And I've already had my initial 24oz. :cool:

[Griph0n Brown]

Just set up my new general 350. I'm a little disappointed.
The left wing is out on the feed side to the first bolt but level the rest of the way. I tried to level it but it puts the rest of the wing out. The honing marks on the table don't move in the same direction, so I wonder if the tabletop was factory ground as one piece like they say it is.
The angle iron part of the fence rail won't rise high enough to meet the template they give you for setup, at least an eighth too low. I put it as high as I could and installed the box bar and the fence and it rides at an angle and catches on the edges of the slots. This one I fixed by shimming each bolt with brass. (The shop teacher at my school just got a 650 and the rail holes didn't line up with the table holes. He had to drill new ones in the rail himself)
The extension table legs are too long. I took off the lock nut on the leveling feet and screwed them up tight to the bottom and they still wouldn't line up. I ended up cutting the rubber off them and using them as bare bolt heads on the floor in frustration. (I should have drilled new holes but hadn't assembled my new busy bee drill press yet).
The long mobile base I bought for the saw and extension table is a little unstable (and expensive). It tends to flex and move. The locking casters and slippy plastic wheels may be the culprit, but I'd prefer some shop built bases that let the saw sit on the base and lever it up for movement.

Called the tech line in Quebec and they seemed .... uninterested.
Most problems I fixed myself with a little time and effort. All a part of the setup I suppose. I'm a little disappointed too that when I asked the riving knife wasn't going to be available and now, a month later, it is.
I bought North American made at $1000 more to avoid these kind of issues and hassles. I was complaining to my father, a 40 year tool tweaking veteran, and he wisely said it's the casting quality and the motor that matter, not the fit and finish. They can be fixed.

I think I'd buy the saw stop if I could go back in time. More of the features and it looks like more care is put into basic production and quality testing from the floor models I've seen.

[dan mahler]

Another vote for the PM2000. Recently purchased from Woodcraft and paid $1980 (03/2008).

[Lewis Cobb]

Just set up my new general 350. I'm a little disappointed.
The left wing is out on the feed side to the first bolt but level the rest of the way. I tried to level it but it puts the rest of the wing out. The honing marks on the table don't move in the same direction, so I wonder if the tabletop was factory ground as one piece like they say it is.
The angle iron part of the fence rail won't rise high enough to meet the template they give you for setup, at least an eighth too low. I put it as high as I could and installed the box bar and the fence and it rides at an angle and catches on the edges of the slots. This one I fixed by shimming each bolt with brass. (The shop teacher at my school just got a 650 and the rail holes didn't line up with the table holes. He had to drill new ones in the rail himself)
The extension table legs are too long. I took off the lock nut on the leveling feet and screwed them up tight to the bottom and they still wouldn't line up. I ended up cutting the rubber off them and using them as bare bolt heads on the floor in frustration. (I should have drilled new holes but hadn't assembled my new busy bee drill press yet).
The long mobile base I bought for the saw and extension table is a little unstable (and expensive). It tends to flex and move. The locking casters and slippy plastic wheels may be the culprit, but I'd prefer some shop built bases that let the saw sit on the base and lever it up for movement.

Called the tech line in Quebec and they seemed .... uninterested.
Most problems I fixed myself with a little time and effort. All a part of the setup I suppose. I'm a little disappointed too that when I asked the riving knife wasn't going to be available and now, a month later, it is.
I bought North American made at $1000 more to avoid these kind of issues and hassles. I was complaining to my father, a 40 year tool tweaking veteran, and he wisely said it's the casting quality and the motor that matter, not the fit and finish. They can be fixed.

I think I'd buy the saw stop if I could go back in time. More of the features and it looks like more care is put into basic production and quality testing from the floor models I've seen.


This is only the second complaint I have ever read about on a General saw - and I am from Canada and frequent the Canadian boards where there's more chatter about them. The General is an excellent saw but I think part of the reason that you hardly ever see complaints is a functinon of volume of units sold. Let's face it, the PM2000s are being sold mainly in the US where I am sure there are 10x the number of units being sold. More units being sold, and more complaints you are going to hear about.

It comes down to cost/features/use and what fit's one lad's feet may not fit another. I am a Canadian and Generals are built about 1 day drive away from me....but I bought an Asian made PM2000 from an American dealer and am driving to the US to pick it up. For me the equation went for the PM2000 - but the General is just as good and in fact probably better when it comes to the motor and castings.

My .02 - ...well maybe .03 - I tended to ramble a bit.

[Mike Gabbay]

Griph - My legs were too long with the rubber feet as well. However I attributed it to the fact that I was using the mobile base with the outrigger support for the table. I just removed the feet and shimed the legs on the base.

As for the fence, my L bracket rail was off by less that 1/16th. It was close enough. I thought for a fence it was a very easy installation. Everything lined up. the only issue I had was I stretched the tape a little too hard so I replaced it with a Starrett steel tape.

I had to remove my wings to move my saw into my basement shop. I reinstalled the wings by using 2 aluminum L brackets that are about 3 feet long to act as a guide. I clamped them to the table in the middle section and the to the wing. That got the wings flush with the top. I installed the bolts and made a couple of very minor adjustments and was done. It literally took me 10 minutes for both wings.

No matter what saw you buy you are likely to find some issues. I will say that since the ship the saw prebuilt it was in perfect condition to start. Having talked with the General reps, they do check out the saw before it leaves the factory. Apparently including starting up the motor.

Their tech support is a little weak but I think that may be due to a couple of things, Canadians are more laid back than Americans (no knock on the Canadians), and I think these guys tend to sell to production shops more that hobbiest so they don't get the same level of questions.

my 2 cents....

[Chris Padilla]

How is the dust collection on the General versus the PM2k? The PM2k appears to have a nice shroud...no clue about the General.

[Dan Owen]

Laughing out loud. GriphOn Brown = Powermatic Drama School Student.

[Dan Lautner]

"The PM2k appears to have a nice shroud...no clue about the General."

I noticed the newer saws seem to have the shroud. Does this make a big difference in dust collection. I looked at the General site and did not see it listed.

Dan

[Mike Gabbay]

The General does not have a shroud but it does have a pan in the base that angles towards the DC port. I have not seen much of an issue with DC. I think the shroud may do a little better but the only way to really get the excess sawdust that comes off the blade is with an overarm guard/DC.

[John Thompson]

I wouldn't kick a PM 2000 out of bed... but I had rather sleep with a General 650.. And if one of those older PM 66's winked at me.. I would pursue that also. :D

Sarge..

[Gary Curtis]

I bought a General 350 (with their sliding table) in 2006. The instructions for the Biesemeyer fence are tragic. The machinery dealer who sold me the equipment devised his own 'cheat sheet' for fence installation. If you send me a PM with your address, I'd be happy to Xerox it and mail you a copy.

As to Customer service, at General International, Trevor was exceedingly helpful. Canadian saws, including the 350, are supported by Christian. Phone numbers for both divisions are listed on the www.General.ca website.

I too found the fittings on the extension table a bit crude. I think this is because — like the fence — are used on so many different models and on many other brands of saw as well.

The dust collection is pretty good. I do wish there was a blade guard with integral DC to suck up the debris on top of the table. And I am hoping to learn soon that the riving knife will be available as a retrofit for existing equipment. On the whole, I love the equipment. The sliding table enables me to do crosscuts at 'machine-gun' speed. And extremely accurate miter cuts. With a 5hp Baldor motor, the thing just hums along.

If I had need for a mobile saw, then the PM would be quite attractive with its built-in castors.

Gary Curtis

[Mark Carlson]

I love my General 650 but it does have a few flaws. As mentioned before, the fence instructions should be thrown out. I found a description online on how to install the fence and all went well. No drilling should be necessary. The manual for the saw itself if also a joke. Not really needed though. The other weak area is the extension table. Its ok, similar to most saws but nothing great. I had a incra router table that I used instead.

I read somewhere, probably on SMC that the riving knife retro kit was going to be around $800. yikes.

~mark

[Griph0n Brown]

Contacted general again.
Gotta pull the table and get it ground. General said they'd pay. I'm in the Yukon and for a small northern town we've got a few great machine shops.

My 13" general planer started up great and on the 20th pass or so threw it's feed roller chain with a fantastic clunk. Another great shop did the repair in a couple days locally under warranty.

Does bad luck come in threes when it's green?