Staining - not happy with what I have

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I have a few cans of different Minwax stain I have been sampling for my latest maple project. I ain't happy with the result. The maple seems to actually resist the Minwax product.

I haven't stained anything in so long is seems like forever. I did a set of massive white pine bunk beds for my girls when they were little some 30 odd years ago.
It came out great (I am still using the recycled lumber from the beds) and it was Minwax stain. But now - It's like they changed their product and are making it using inferior crap.

The maple project is a dart board box that stands free on a tripod and folds up for storage. I was planning to stain it so it didn't leap out at you apart from the the color of the dark wood room where it is going to live.

The room is a dark stained American Chestnut paneled room constructed in a coffer style. Once long ago (when the USA still had chestnut trees) it was a lawyer's study. Now it is where my TV and 5' fireplace are. It's sort of a family room.

But the stain is making me frustrated. All the samples I have made look crummy.

Any suggestions for staining?

[glenn bradley]

Pine will "take" a stain quicker than maple just due to it's physical nature. Minwax is not the greatest product right out of the factory in my experience. The pigment is quite coarse and I could never get a realiable, repeatable finish with it. At that price-point, Olympic has done better for me, YMMV.

One of the first things I started using a higher quality of in this hobby was finishing products. I'm sure there are some that are overpriced but many are reasonable for what you get. I'm currently favoring dyes over stains. I learned my lesson by tanking $300 worth of material and hours of effort by using $6 per quart finish once or twice. I'm done with that (I hope).

General Finishes, Target (Oxford) and Homestead Finishing products have all done well. Transtint dyes work well for me too.

[Craig D Peltier]

The finisher I use tries to avoid minwax stain as best as possible. He says it doesnt like a second coat either. As much as varathane does.
Also maybe a grain filler would of helped if you get too many blotches. I have heard that the grain filler might not let you go as dark as you want though.

[Guy Roland]

I've made my own stain for years. I'm not saying it's better than anything out there, I 've had success. The formula I use is simple 1 part boiled linseed oil, 1 part turpentine, 1 part thinner and color with universal colorant.

[Jim Becker]

Pigment stains like Minwax are not going to do much for closed grain/pore speices like maple. A better choice might be a water soluble dye to add color. But don't judge it until you seal with shellac and at least one coat of your intended clear coat...the water soluble dye will appear relatively "muddy" when it's naked, but snaps to life once you add the de-waxed shellac and top coat. Always test the full regimen on scrap from your project before working on the "good parts"...

[Joe Chritz]

Dye will help avoid the blotches you get with maple from regular pigment stains.

If you are going to use a stain a wash coat of very thin dewaxed shellac first will help, although it will lighten the color.

Go with a dye, either cut in alcohol (if you spray) or water.

Joe

[Dewey Torres]

Another thing not mentioned yet is Pre-Stain wood conditioner. I reach for this prior to staining and have had favorable results with pine. I have not tried it with maple but I am willing to bet it would work well for most any wood.

http://www.minwax.com/products/wood_preparation/oil_based_pre_stain_wood_conditioner.cfm

Dewey

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I have considered that (a) the pigment was too coarse and (2) the maple is so dense that it's not getting in.

Dyes have been on my list to consider for a while.

Looking at Lee's Aniline dyes and they don't have anything at all reflecting what I'll get on maple . Maybe the closest is Rosewood on Butternut. But it's still butternut.

Over on TFWW I'm looking at Lockwood dyes I think I like theirs better.

The cost of these dyes isn't so bad compared to off the shelf retail products. The mark up on dyes is incredible (thousands of percent) somewhere along the way. Probably it's at the stage where it's packaged in ounce size containers.

I know what the markup is at these quantities. I used to purchase 5 gallon drums of Aniline dyes and they are not costly at all in bulk.

Couple hundred dollars and you have a 5 gallon pail of the stuff.
At which point all you'd need is a few hundred thousand dollars worth of packing machinery and some containers.

[Jim Becker]

Cliff, I suggest you avoid alcohol soluble dyes unless you plan on spraying them. Stick with water soluble for easiest and forgiving application...

Yes, dyes are somewhat pricy, but they also go a LONG way. I'm still using a batch I mixed up two years ago and only used a small portion of the dye powder colors that are in it.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Cliff, I suggest you avoid alcohol soluble dyes unless you plan on spraying them. Stick with water soluble for easiest and forgiving application...

Dyes in alcohol tend to penetrate aggressively? I'd think Alcohol would be better because it evaporated faster and might warp wood less.

[Steve Schoene]

The problem with alcohol soluble dyes is that they dry so fast that it is very difficult to avoid overlapping wet dye onto a surface where the dye as already dried. That gives a dark streak. Spraying, and you should be pretty good at it, gives the possibility of a more even application.

Sure, the water mixed dye will raise the grain a bit, but that's easily sanded off when you sand your first finish coat. By the time you get to finishing almost all surfaces are either mechanically captured to avoid warping, or are going to be dyed and finished on both sides. In either case warping doesn't become a problem.

With the water soluble powdered dye, you can apply it quite liberally, in which case it is the concentration of the dye that determines the darkness, not whether you applied in precisely even. That makes the water mixed dye much the easiest to use on bare wood.