David Marks - DYI Network, Wood Works

[Will Blick]

I recently got the DYI network and have watched a lot of DM's Wood Works shows. Some comments and some questions.

Comments: He does a good job compressing a long project into a 20 minute show after commercials. He seems a bit more advanced than Norms shows, at least in the fine art ww'ing category, which is nice. His projects are somewhat interesting, nice mix of pieces. He also incorporates a lot of 3d blending into his work, ridding the 2 1/2 D look most wood projects have. Often he provides "just enough" 3d contours to break the boxy look of most ww projects many of dread. He also provides some unique finishes, such as gildings, and acid stained metal, quite interesting looks. So, overall, I am impressed with his show.


I am curious how others feel...

1. Many of his projects are first constructed from MDF, which then serve as templates. He also makes a ton of glue templates and spacing templates from MDF. His technique will assure mistakes are shaken out on the dry-run MDF vs. the more expensive hardwood. Very sensible....but I am curious, how many people actually go through the time to make almost everything in MDF before tackling the real piece?


2. It seems his GO-TO finish is always Tung oil... occasionally a Tung oil and poly mix, brush on, wipe off. If a finishing pro like Jewitt was to take over the finishing portion of the show, do you think he would use a better mix of finishing mediums and application techniques? Is DM stuck on Tung Oil, or would you say Tung Oil really is optimum finish on most of his projects?


3. How do you feel about his TS safety practices? I realize the TS blade guard is removed for TV....but what about his hands being around the blade so much? Specially with dado cuts? No splitters...on one show, the small cut-off piece shot out the back like a rocket...it was a thin insignificant piece of wood, so I guess they saw no reason to remove it.

[Bill Edwards(2)]

I like a lot of David's work, but most of the things he makes, my wife would send to Goodwill (just kidding) but not our style at all.

Norm takes a lot of his style from antiques.

Both seem to try to work towards the middle occasionally:cool:.

[Matt Ocel]

I don't think you can compare the two.
Norm is a Master Carpenter.
David Marks is a furniture Maker.

My .02

[Gene E Miller]

Greetings & Salutations,

I am an avid watcher if DIY and especially the
New Yankee Workshop and Wood Works.

IMHO I would classify David Marks a furniture maker as well
as and artist. If you watch his shows at some point you will
see him do a show on who his mentors were and they are
artistic furniture makers.

As to his finish that he prefers he mostly uses the Seal-A-Cell
and Arm-R-Seal from General Finishes. His website
has a FAQ section that he describes that after trying to mix
his own concoction for a several years he finally settled
into using the above product and I have used it on several of
my projects and must say that it is easy to apply and really
makes the natural grain of the woods stand out.

I myself prefer natural finishes rather than stains so this
product does it for me. It is a blend of BLO, Tung Oil and
Polyurethane and after about 4 or 5 coats I really like the
final results. However everyone has their own preferences
I am sure and as time goes on I may find something else that
I like but for now I will stick with the hand applied finish
that works for me.

I know that David teaches a lot of woodworking classes
around the country and one of those is in my home state
of Indiana and one of these days if I can scrape the money
together I would like to attend. But that for now is a distant
dream.

Gene Miller

[Dewey Torres]

I have met him "and taken him to lunch", in Late Feb. A lot of these questions (and then some) were answered during the course of the all day session:

1) One thing you will find that separates a great woodworker from a not so great one is attention to detail and taking the time to put in to things "like templates and full scale drawings". If you have ever completely trashed a piece (or pieces) of expensive hard wood, the first thing that might come to mind is one of those templates or drawings Marks does... among the expletives or course.

2) The product on the show referred to as tung oil is by General Finishes and they have since changed the formula... there is no more tung oil in it. Even before they changed it, it wasn't pure tung oil... if I recall correctly it was a 3 part mix (tung oil, boiled linseed oil, poly)

3) David Marks can still count to ten... you can't be on a high profile woodworking show and sell $15k (plus) pieces unless you still have all of your fingers... oh wait... Sam Maloof cut a tip off... hmm. Of well, Sam never had a TV Show. Bottom line, David is very safe. I saw this in his class. Most of the high level detail can't be done on camera (or otherwise), with a blade guard and a splitter in the way. Mine was so clunky and hard to install that I threw it out. Most on here won't admit it, but they did the same and maybe bought after market ones. With cutting dadoes, all you need is something to keep you hands off of the piece above the blade. David uses a push pad.

Comparing the Norm and DM is really not fair... David said in his class "It is easier and more profitable to sell ART rather than CRAFT". As you watch more shows you will see the artistic side of DM's work.

Dewey

[Matt Meiser]

When they first started showing Woodworks back around 2001 I didn't like it. As I learned more about the craft in general I started to like it more. Like others, I don't really care for a lot of pieces he's made. I did make a bed that was inspired by one of his shows though, then designed a table and now a bookshelf to go with it.

I've used his MDF router template technique on a few projects. I've never made a complete mockup. But I now use Sketchup which lets me see my projects, and I'm one of those people who can see what something is going to look like from drawings. Some can't and that would be a good idea.

Safety--I don't doubt his actions are typical of many in the craft. Other DIY shows have shown much more unsafe practices than anything I've seen on his show.

The finish is actually a General Finishes Arm-R-Seal product which used to contain tung oil but no longer does apparently. Some claim he's being deceptive on the show. Whatever the reason, there's an FAQ about it on his web site.

I know a couple people who have met him in person and have read many encounters. I've never heard him described as anything but a nice guy.

[Al Navas]

Edit to change this paragraph: I must agree - David Marks is a terrific artist, and a superb furniture maker. I believe most of us will learn from him, no matter our expertise level in the shop.

Although our home is unlikely to have one of his contemporary pieces, it is the *techniques* he shares that are most important to me. From making the honeycomb wine rack, to veneering, making hand planes, to Oriental-style cabinets, desks, stools, benches, you name it. His techniques are flawless.

In retrospect, each show, condensed to 30 minutes, took 80 to 100 hours to produce, including making the prototype! In the beginning he went at it pretty much alone, and later had assistants do some (many? several?) of the things required for the show. Of course, now we view only reruns. But 80-100 hours to produce a 30-minute show, week after week, I believe more than 15 shows per season, would be a killer to most of us. Yet, he prevailed, and has become legendary for his work. Now he teaches, both on the road, and at his shop, throughout the year.

His two passions, playing the drums, and wood turning, have grown as he himself has grown. I believe I owe David a lot, for what he has done for our craft in the last several years, and for the things I have learned from him, through his shows.

Thanks, David!


.

[Bill Wyko]

I'm all for Tung oil. Most of my work is on the "Art" side. Many people will say it's the easy way out. I disagree. To do a tung oil finish properly requires plenty of patience where as a Laquer can be sprayed and buffed in 24 hrs. Coats of Minwax Tung oil (45% tung oil) should be applied 24 hours apart, steel wooled and re-applied every 24 hours. When you get to coat 3 it'll look great but don't stop there, give it another 3 coats 24 hrs apart and it becomes incredible, especially on figured woods. IMHO most finishes have their place, be it production, Art, furniture etc. For what I do, I really like the look and feel of Tung oil. As far as choosing who is better goes, I'd never make that compairison. Some might say Marks is a better turnerand others might say norm's better at reproducing the classics. The bottom line is there is a wealth of information to be learned from both. I do feel Norm gets a little too nail gun happy sometimes though.:D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I've watched both, learned from both and enjoy both. They are two totally different styles and therefore I don't think you can compare David Marks and Norm. You can't compare Beethoven and the Beatles but I like both. Both are great in there own rights. Same is true for David Marks and Norm.

[Jim Tobias]

I would have to agree with bith Matt and Al. David Marks is an artist and a furniture maker. Pretty good combo if you ask me. Norm is different from David Marks, but is also very instructive in his presentation. I cannot say anything but very, very positive things about both shows. I started out learning techniques from Norm and still do. I have learned a lot of techniques and methods from david Marks that I would never have learned from Norm. Both have been inspirations and teachers of woodworking to many (especially me).

Jim

[Peter Quinn]

I've seen pretty much every episode at least twice. Its a nearly complete education in wood working technique and a fairly good introduction to contemporary furniture design. He makes many pieces that are not my preference as to style but I have learned a great deal from watching their construction.

As to the question of how others feel:


1) I use a fair amount of MDF for templates and layout largely based on his show but also from my experiences as a junior mechanic at a custom millwork shop. The guys there made tons of MDF templates, jigs, patterns etc...had been doing it for decades...none had ever heard of DJ Marks! Seems many good wood workers make templates and mock ups, often run test pieces of poplar or basswood, use scraps to test designs before committing expensive materials. I have yet to make a complete mock up from MDF but often test tricky or critical joinery using inexpensive materials.

2)DJ Marks does use a lot of wipe on poly/tung oil finish in the show, it is a very nice finish appropriate for his work, and I personally like it. If I recall correctly he has also applied nitro cellulose lacquer, shellac, long and short oil varnish, wax and paint. He has used a variety of coloring techniques all to bring out the natural character of the wood. He is an artist who's medium is wood as opposed to a finisher whose trade is manipulation of color and application of finish. I'm not sure a french polish would do much to improve the luster and beauty of a shop made hand scraped olive wood burl, but I'm pretty sure adding a finisher to Woodworks would detract from the shows focus. Many of the techniques of professional finishers add depth or protection to the wood but don't add clarity and richness.

3) His table saw technique is safe, professional and informative. Almost every blade guard I have seen is more dangerous than none. They keep you from putting your fingers in sideways but not from cutting off your hand. He uses hold down wheels, push sticks, proper stance and posture. The truly dangerous part of the table saw is the nut that holds the wood to the table, and if that gets loose things can get strange.

[Carl Fox]

I really like both of them, but IMHO they are not in the same league.

When I see Nahm I think 'Hmm, maybe I should make that'.

When I see DJM I see a artist and a poet. He caresses the wood lovingly and says poems to it.

I don't know if Nahm could build (or design) pieces of DJM's quality.

But, Nahm inspires me to build furniture and re-do my kitchen. DJM makes me want it to be a work of art.

IOW, Nahm = Home Depot.
DJM = Woodcraft ;)

[Will Blick]

Carl, that is too funny!!! HomeDepot / Woodcraft.

funny how we all pick up on the same things... I too notice Nahm going crazy with the nail gun....then the pinner, and now, he seems to like Nothing showing, so on his latest kitchen cabinet episodes, he could not stop emphasizing the NO fastener look, as he continued to mention, even the pins could not be completely invisible.

Interesting on the DM finish issue.... DM always just mentions tung oil, so one would have suspected 100% Tung. I do agree, he does do other interesting finishes, very artistic approach, but when he uses nice figured wood, you know Tung oil is coming in the end. I will check out the new General finishes, thanks for the tips... I never spent much time at the DYI web site...

Bill, since your humidor was so impressive.... I am curious, how many coats total do you shoot for? Between coats, steel wool #0000 ? Do you ever prefer spray over brush-on?

I do gather tips from both of them also, as someone pointed out, often times, its techniques or ideas you get that are helpful, not necessarily copying their work. After watch DM's, I will try to add a little more 3d to my pieces, vs. all flat boards joined.


I like the template methodology....but I would only be inclined to implement it, if I had to make multiples of something, which i rarely do... with multiples, it can be a real time saver. But, if I ever ruined a $500 piece of exotic wood, I may feel different :-)

It would not surprise me DM's show takes 100 hrs to shoot one 20 minute episode. Lots of thinking goes into planning what parts are critical to demonstrate to grasp the project, as he has so little time, but in that regard, it works, Kudos to DM.

The other interesting thing about DM's show is.... at times, he uses very old tools, looks like they were from a flea market (nothing wrong with that)....but then, he pulls out the hand power tools, and all new Festools! Seems like a bit of a contrast, or maybe Festool donated them for advertisement?

[Mike Spanbauer]

I apologize if anyone covered this already, as I only scanned the first 5 or so posts.

I've taken a class from David and enjoyed it thoroughly (at his shop in Santa Rosa, 3 days).

His "go-to" finish was only used so prevalently on the show as he built those pieces for the most part to be filmed in a 48 hour setup. It was easy to apply one coat, finish it, and apply another for a very good presentation. He does like the finish, true but I don't believe he would have chosen it so prominently if he had a choice.

Oh, every episode was shot in 2 days... David had to prepare pieces in different stages in order to accomodate the hellish schedule. Sometimes 18 hour shooting days. It wasn't a picnic, but he accomplished some amazing things for sure.

mike

[Carl Fox]

Will,

Yeah. When I redo the kitchen I WANT to show the dovetails for the draras (drawers ;)). My kitchen will have no 'cabinets', only full extension drawers.

[Carl Fox]

I apologize if anyone covered this already, as I only scanned the first 5 or so posts.

I've taken a class from David and enjoyed it thoroughly (at his shop in Santa Rosa, 3 days).

His "go-to" finish was only used so prevalently on the show as he built those pieces for the most part to be filmed in a 48 hour setup. It was easy to apply one coat, finish it, and apply another for a very good presentation. He does like the finish, true but I don't believe he would have chosen it so prominently if he had a choice.

Oh, every episode was shot in 2 days... David had to prepare pieces in different stages in order to accomodate the hellish schedule. Sometimes 18 hour shooting days. It wasn't a picnic, but he accomplished some amazing things for sure.

mike

That explains why he's always wearing the same red shirt.;)

[Will Blick]

Mike, good point, considering the time constraints, and trying to show the pieces in the different stages, such as completed, but not finished, then finished, I guess he was limited in what could be used.... sometimes when we watch the show, we don't think about all these issues going on behind the scenes. He just starts with an idea, and 20 minutes later, the piece is finished :-)


Meanwhile, in my world, I would be 20 minutes looking for the first hand tool I had to use :-) ahhh, the magic of tv..... kidding aside, I really think DM does a great job...and I am sure we all realize, he doesn't have million dollar budgets for these shows. So, not only is he a great ww, but he is a bright guy with a ton of energy and imagination to pull this off as well as he does...


Carl, be sure to only dovetail the front of your drarars, as the rears don't receive the same pull forces...so set up a completely different router jig for the drarar backs :-) And yes, full extension slides only, they cost a bit more, but they are worth it! :-)

What I would be curious about is.... with the advent of 3d modeling becoming very low cost, and extremely powerful to preview all the details of your piece before you start building..... will we ever see these to ww icons start moving into software designs? Maybe teaching use of a given software for ww? Then show us, how they designed it, what failed, what worked, all the different looks they tried, etc. That would be one great leap forward for the ww world! I bet - NO WAY! But I sure would like to see this, as lets face it, any successful piece has to be designed before its built..... and the design process is what these guys excel at, but its all in their head, not for us to see... This is true more for DM than Nahm, as Nahm does duplicates existing pieces, whereas DM seems to dream up more Universal pieces...

When I see these high-end kitchen cabinet programs, I am blown away how they can simulate the entire kitchen, as a virtual walk-through... change stain color, change pulls, drawer fronts, etc. I am not suggesting something this detailed though....

[David Cramer]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. He's just a class guy all the way around. That goes from just having a friendly chat while taking a class all the way to his television show that unfortunately has not been produced for about 4 years. Take a class and you won't be dissapointed.

He is both kind and humble and also an extremely keen woodworker/artist who is filled with much knowledge of his craft. He is now being rewarded for the lean years when he was an unknown and struggling. In my opinion, he's definitely earned where he is today.

Personally, he has tremendously inspired me to strive for things in woodworking that I didn't think were in my grasp. Check out his website and you'll see that he put up a couple short videos on turning. They are located somewhere on the homepage and are free to view. And yes, I also think very highly of Norm. Both guys have been great for woodworkers everywhere and have really opened people's eyes to what woodworkers can build and what is truly involved. Ya gotta love'em both!

David

[Will Blick]

David, i was not aware DM's show has not been produced for 4 years now.... wow, any reason why it was discontinued? Was it his choice?


Boy, I sure agree with you.....any success DM is having these days is well deserved. I admire anyone who pursues what they love, then, somehow they find a way to make a good living from it... musicians are often in the same boat, 99% of them never make a penny, just play for the love of music...

BTW, does anyone know how old DM is? He certainly has a very youthful appearance, but based on what I have heard, he must be in his mid 40's?

[Pat Germain]

David, i was not aware DM's show has not been produced for 4 years now.... wow, any reason why it was discontinued? Was it his choice?

Actually, very little about the show was David's choice. When I asked him about it, he was quite candid in expressing how grueling and frustrating it was. Although, he was very grateful for the opportunity.

It wasn't his idea to wear the "Eddie Bauer shirts". The producers wanted to cover up his forearm tattoos. It was the producers who insisted on slathering on lots of makeup (which explains the "youthful appearance") and making him smile all the time. When you add up the shirts, the makeup and the forced smiles, you can understand why David appears somewhat surreal throughout the show. This appearance is nothing like the real David Marks who is very down to earth, friendly and downright funny.

David came up with the projects, but they had to be approved by the producers who said, "Nothing too artsy". David admitted he was surprised some of the projects were approved because he considered them somewhat artsy. He also told me he had a lot of help making the projects for the show. There was simply no possible way he could do it all himself with the very tight schedule of Woodworks. (Norm does all his own work, but the NYW production rate is literally half of what Woodworks was.)

Although Woodworks continues to run in repeats, David receives no royalties from the show and has no control over it. He was paid to do the show and that was it.

[Will Blick]

So I wonder if DYI Network will replace DM's show with someone else? I am assuming DM had enough of it....

I would like to see Marc, the woodwhisperer fill this void, he is young, full of energy and has a real passion for wood working.....he is also a natural in front of the camera. When you look at what he has done on his web site, with just him and his wife (maybe some in laws?), and, in their spare time, it's quite impressive.... Of course IIRC, marc studied under DM. Anyone else feel this way?

[Chris Padilla]

Although Woodworks continues to run in repeats, David receives no royalties from the show and has no control over it. He was paid to do the show and that was it.

There are some shows that DIY, for whatever reason, does not repeat or repeats very, very seldom. I've been trying to record every episode for over 2 years and I've found a handful that DIY simply doesn't show for some reason. They must be the "controversial" ones where David cracked a bad joke or rolled up his sleeves or something.... ;)

[David Cramer]

David is a young 55 years old. Like Pat, he also told myself and other students during break that he had a golden pheasant tatoo that was being covered up by the long sleeve shirt. Personally, seeing the tatoo while he worked wood wouldn't have bothered me in the least.

As far as Marc having his own show, I truly believe that will happen one day, even if he himself downplays the idea. As you say Will, he's great in front of a camera and he's worked under David Marks, so he's got the needed skills. Time will tell.

Personally, I wish they had made more shows with David, but hey, 91 (or is it 92) shows ain't bad either and I can learn numerous new techniques in every episode. He makes it look easy and attainable, but he's a master at it, and that's what masters do.

When he comes out with his own DVD series, I'll be the first in line!!! I am grateful that the show was ever produced and feel lucky to have seen the shows that I have. Again, he's quite an inspiration and he made my daughter's day as well as mine. She would rather see him than Hannah Montana, believe it or not. She stared at him so long I actually felt bad for the man, but he was gracious and kind.

Take care,

David

[Will Blick]

Great comments David....wow, 55, ww has treated him well :-)


I think for someone like Marc, its best he starts his own production.... For example, as he builds projects during his day job, he can turn them into 30 or 60 minute shows....then, he builds up ~15 shows, then he shops them around different TV networks. If he gets a buyer, then he will find out how successful the shows are, and the network will bid for more shows. If not, he has a nice collection for his web site that will be watched for years, or even available for a fee, either DVD or download. This is one nice thing about ww shows...the projects never go out of style, or never superseded by new technology.

With modern technology being what it is today, it doesn't require quite the production staff and technical expertise it once did....and with digital video cameras today, including the new RED video cameras, you can make your own digital productions much easier and cost effective. AND, if all digital, it's much easier for the TV station to edit for commercials...

Anyway, Marc has expressed no interest in this, but he is still very young, give'em time :-) I think he would enjoy the cult following, and all the free tools that come along with the gig!

[Mark Singer]

David is a really talented woodworker/ furniture maker. I took a class from him some years ago and really enjoyed it. He is really versitile

[Pat Germain]

I think it's likely Marc heard enough horror stories from David Marks to scare him well away from TV production. Marc already gets free tools from PM. He sets his own schedule. He decides what to do and how to do it. All that goes away when under the thumb of a TV producer.

FYI, David Marks does have a couple of DVD's for sale through his web site and through Woodcraft. They are somewhat expensive compared to the DVD bargain bin at Wal-Mart, but well worth it. Buying them also helps out a fellow woodworker.

[Peter Quinn]

They made him cover up his tattoos? Really? That's the exact reason I left the corporate world for good with in a year of graduating college way back when...not because I had tattoos, but because I couldn't stand that mentality of applying great weight and importance to the maintenance of a superficial image. Individuality is not encouraged, creativity has no sponsor in most of corporate America. It is amazing he was able to accomplish what he did with that program under that yoke. Rather than offering a rich insight into the real life of a genuine artist and craftsman they chose to portray an image they themselves could understand, stomach and felt they could mass market.

Perhaps in the age of "Reality" television a program may arise featuring a more genuine look at another craftsman's atelier. Of course by the time the marketing stooges take their shot at honing such a broad cast for the masses it may easily become the easy listening equivalent of wood working...it offends no one, but it pleases on one either. Perhaps a dedicated wood working channel is in order? Are there enough of us and is it cheap enough to produce in the digital age to make a go of it?

I'm thinking NYW meets IRON CHEF! Two guys compete to build a judged piece of furniture in under one hour....medical staff on stand by of course...

[Jordan Shatsoff]

I have found that as I have watched them both, I have learned many different techniques for the same goal. Whether it is different fasteners they use or different gluing techniques, I like that I can watch them both and decide what works best for me.

I can say that if not for DM and woodworks, I might not know about something as great (and simple) as a card scraper, or that you could build furniture without any mechanical fasteners. On the other hand, I find that Norm using a sander, or pocket screws, and a nail gun are more typical of what I might choose to do.

[Joe Chritz]

The corporate head wigs would have the big one if they saw my tat then.

Mark's stuff is first rate. Lots is very artistic and it is presented in a format that even a non artistic person (like me) wouldn't be afraid to tackle.

The turtle toy box looks way cool.

Joe