Pocket hole on a 45deg

[Amy Leigh Baker]

Hi guys!

I have to attach cross braces at the legs of a table and wanted to know if the 45 degrees on the braces will affect the pocket holes? I think it will. Just to clarify, I will be attaching a 45 degree cut onto a flat surface.

Can I drill the pocket hole into the cross brace through the 45 and into the apron? If so, do I have to adjust the placement of the jig or depth collar?

Thanks!

Amy

[Jim Becker]

The pocket should be perpendicular to the apron it is servicing and should be just a normal cut for that thickness of material. You may want to consider cutting the pockets before you trim the braces down to side so you have enough material to clamp to. If they are small, don't bother with the screws. Cut them accurately, use PVA glue and "clamp" them with a couple pins or small brads until the glue dries. Yes, that's not quite as fast as pocket screw assembly, but on small support structures, screws are harder to use.

[Steve Flavin001]

head rests seated flat/parallel with the apron in the recess, or in other words the screw is perpendicular to the apron. You will be able to use the adjustable collar but probably not the jig itself, but not to worry. I just did exactly what you are doing using 2" square stock as the 45 degree brace. After making just one test cut in scrap it will determine how far back from the mitered end the hole should be and then use a standard 45 degree angle (speed square or similar) to mark and then visually align the angle of cut.

A screw in that test hole will tell you the length of screw to use for the respective apron.

Craig also publishes a bunch of how-to ideas of things that can be built with the system and might have an idea there.

[glenn bradley]

A method some folks use;

http://www.mcfeelys.com/images/pages/corner1.png http://www.mcfeelys.com/images/pages/corner2.png http://www.mcfeelys.com/images/pages/corner3.png

[David Duke]

A method some folks use;

http://www.mcfeelys.com/images/pages/corner1.png http://www.mcfeelys.com/images/pages/corner2.png http://www.mcfeelys.com/images/pages/corner3.png

This is what I do and it really works well, it eliminates the thin edge at the corner. The only drawback is you can't use this method with plywood.

[Amy Leigh Baker]

I don't really understand everything that was explained. The photo below came from Kreg website...

86952
http://kregtool.com/information_center/index.php#legRails

So nobody here would suggest attaching corner clamps via this method? It appears as if the pocket holes are running parallel with the brace, not perpendicular the apron. I thought I had seen this done on furniture in this past, but I may be mistaken. There are certainly people here who are more experienced with pocket hole joinery. The only difference between the picture and my application is that I removed the corner of the leg where the brace goes, so that the brace sits flat on the leg as opposed to balancing on the 90 degree corner.

Jim, you said I could glue if the brace wasn't too big. It's 6 1/2 inches on the long side, but I can't see an easy way for me to brace it this way. But would glue suffice?

Amy

[J. Z. Guest]

(Method 1) I don't think glue/brads is a good idea. Brads aren't very strong, and neither is glue in end grain. If you're going to use a corner brace like you picture in your post above, you'll need to drill pocket holes 90° to the apron you're attaching to.

(Method 2) Otherwise, you could make a 45-45-90 traingular brace with a cut-out for the leg, if necessary, and then if you used Jim's suggestion, you'd be gluing edge grain to face grain, which is good & strong.

(back to Method 1) I don't think the angles will end up right if you use Kreg. Maybe the 90° thing isn't that pivotal if you firmly clamp that brace in place before driving the pocket screws.

[Jim Becker]

Amy, when I do corner braces, I do them oriented in the same plane as the table top, not as they are shown in the diagram from Kreg. In that orientation, the glue joint is very strong...it's not totally end grain if cut right. I suspect that you will need to make adjustments to your drilling setup to make those.

[Bill Edwards(2)]

I just floated the brace on a screw/bolt into the leg a' la production table building:
Sorry, it's fuzzy. I didn't have a good closeup.

http://www.billsid.com/img/tabcon.jpg

[Matt Meiser]

Here's how I did something similar. You can't see the pockets because they were all done from the top. Arrows represent the direction of the screw holes.

[Amy Leigh Baker]

I just floated the brace on a screw/bolt into the leg a' la production table building:
Sorry, it's fuzzy. I didn't have a good closeup.



Maybe I will do something like what Bill did, but use the pocket hole drill bit to drill straight into the center of the brace without using the jig, and then the brace would only be attached to the leg and not the aprons. The frame is complete except for the corner braces and the table is pretty secure as is, but I figured I would take as few chances as possible.

I thought about contacting Kreg about how to do what they show on there website, too. Anybody have experience talking with them?

[Greg Hines, MD]

My suggestion would be to mimic Matts bracing. By putting your brace flat instead of vertical, it will give the table a lot more resistance to racking. It would also allow for better gluing and attachment to the three pieces you are trying to align.

Doc

[Lee Schierer]

If you do it the way Kreg shows in their illustration it will work. Remember the pocket screws are going in at angle so they are getting close to 90 degrees to the skirt pieces. They should have good strength that way. Glue will help, but won't take the load on its own since it will be mostly end grain to face grain.

[Matt Meiser]

I forgot to add that the way I did it provides for a built-in place to use for mounting the top.

[Chris Padilla]

This is what I do and it really works well, it eliminates the thin edge at the corner. The only drawback is you can't use this method with plywood.

Glue on an appropriate thickness of matching wood and it'll work just fine. :)

[George Summers]

http://www.kregtool.com/information_center/manuals/kreg_jig_pro_pack.pdf

Page 21 and 22 talk about aprons. They say to use a corner brace or a gusset to reinforce the corner. they do not show how to do the brace (maybe they do not recommend doing the brace with pocket holes) but they do show how to do the reinforcement with a gusset and pocket screws (maybe thats their recommended way).

George

[Amy Leigh Baker]

Okay, here's what I did. It worked pretty darn well, too.

Screwed the center in first drawing the brace tight against the leg. Then the four side screws. It might have been slight overkill, if there is such a thing when it comes to strucural.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

Amy

[Leo Zick]

i made a table (well, a small 18"x18" stand) recently and used a similar technique, but with 2"x2" legs and finish nails where your screws are. i also bored holes and drilled screws through the legs into the apron, and used plugs and sanded smooth. it looks nice for this style, but id like to make another table without seeing plugs. it is solid though, i sat on it, stood on it, and tossed it around, so it holds my stereo just fine :D

anyway, i am looking to buy and use a pocket jig system instead of nails, (is kreg k3ms the best?) and am wondering how to improve.

how did you attach the aprons to the legs? do you go from the inside of the apron and use the jig to set the screws into the legs?

also, how did you join the pieces to make a thicker leg? just glue? how do you hide the seams? is a veneer the only way?

sorry for the newb questions, but i am one :o

thanks, and nice tables, everyone!

[Amy Leigh Baker]

i made a table (well, a small 18"x18" stand) recently and used a similar technique, but with 2"x2" legs and finish nails where your screws are. i also bored holes and drilled screws through the legs into the apron, and used plugs and sanded smooth. it looks nice for this style, but id like to make another table without seeing plugs. it is solid though, i sat on it, stood on it, and tossed it around, so it holds my stereo just fine :D

Sounds nice Leo. Of course without pictures it doesn't exist :D


anyway, i am looking to buy and use a pocket jig system instead of nails, (is kreg k3ms the best?) and am wondering how to improve.

Because I am broker than broke, I went the cheap way and bought the Kreg mini-jig. The only two drawbacks I've thought of is you can only drill one hole per set-up, and you have to manually set the placement. There isn't a lip to rest on the edge.


how did you attach the aprons to the legs? do you go from the inside of the apron and use the jig to set the screws into the legs?

Drilled the holes into the legs with the jig. Then install the screws. The screwheads and pocket holes are actually now located behind the corner braces.


also, how did you join the pieces to make a thicker leg? just glue? how do you hide the seams? is a veneer the only way?

I used biscuits to help with alignment, but glue is evidently all you really need for that face-to-face joint. On the backside of legs I didn't really hide the seams. They just kind of blend in. And since I don't have a planer or a proper hand plane, I very carefully flattened some of the joints with a chisel. Here is an exploded version of how I assembled the legs...

86995


sorry for the newb questions, but i am one :o

So am I... so am I...

Amy :)

[Leo Zick]

thats an interesting way to make legs. there will certainly be some thickness there! so, you are left with a few seams i guess, not too bad.
i like the idea of the pocket hole jig, ill have to invest in it when i am ready for my next project..

attached is my ugly table, stained this dark on purpose since black stereo equipment sits on it.