Router table or shaper?

[Rich Rice]

I'm becoming increasingly apprehensive about using my router table. I build guitars, and need to do lots of edge routing of 2" thick woods. Hard woods or soft, it seems like I am always fighting tearout, and the very real possibility of having the tool grab the workpiece and fling it across the room, and possibly dragging my hand into the spinning bit. Would a shaper be a better tool for this? If so, what size and power would be the most suitable for this type of work? Thanks in advance!

[David DeCristoforo]

Yes...it's time. A shaper is in your future..... The bigger the better but no less than 3HP and the ability to run a 1.25" spindle.

".....when I'm not talking to fish...."

Oh... you do that too? I was afraid it was just me....

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Rich, don't forget that shapers are also good at making things fly.

The trick is proper jigs, guards, and operating procedures.

As you no doubt know, the big advantage shapers have is reversible spindle rotation to cut allow you to always cut with the grain.

If you have a lot of template work, you can buy a double spindle shaper so you have both directions available without flipping the cutter over. (Of course you could do the same thing by simply having two machines).

I use my shaper a lot, it makes many things far easier than using a router, of course it's a bit heavy for hand use.

regards, Rod.

[Joe Chritz]

Shaper cutters have better cutting geometry so they tend to produce less tear out. Tend is a key word in that statement.

There are few disadvantages to a shaper, even if you run a router spindle.

I don't have a 1.25" spindle but it is better to run the biggest bits possible. All mine are 3/4 except a couple small cutters in 1/2. Bigger is definitely better.

FWIW, I have a shaper but no router table set up. I will add a router table for small bits and to keep from having to break down a set up sometimes.

As for talking to the fish, I assume you use NC lacquer on your guitars and haven't purchased a respirator yet. You need to lay off the fumes. :D

Joe

ETA: Sounds like you are doing mostly flush trim pattern work and large round overs. Without a CNC a large shaper with the below mentioned spiral cutter insert. I haven't used one of them but if it cuts like my Byrd head in the jointer it is goodbye chip out hello happy times.

Also, if a router table flush trim bit is intimidating a shaper with a big bit will scare the heck out of you. A tad bit of fear mixed with common sense is a good way to avoid trouble.

[Rich Rice]

Thanks for the replies. All points are very good information, and very much appreciated. The other option I'm considering is a pin router. This would require making all new templates, (yikes) but I wonder if it would afford me more control than the table or the shaper.

My router table is very useful, as well as portable- but I don't have any kind of guards or fences for it. Basically a free spinning 1/2" diameter X 2" tall template following bit sticking out of a table. I keep waiting for the top bearing to become a bullet and kill me. An accident just waiting to happen...

I've recently gone to much softer wood on a couple of designs, which seems to be much more dangerous (Doug Fir being the "grabbiest") than the usual ash, mahogany, maple, poplar, etc.. Hem Fir is considerably tighter grained, and machines better, but lacks the properties of the Doug Fir.

Since I don't do doors or large dimension work, a huge table isn't necessary (or desirable) but there has to be a safer way to get the job done. My production has stepped up, and the law of averages is getting to me.. Daily use of this homemade table is really just unacceptable. I seem to have a better "feel" with a handheld router, but they are all pretty doggone dangerous. I'm tending to bandsaw many of the shapes close to dimension, and just carve the final shapes with my spindle sanders and hand shaping with a block- eliminating lots of the risk, but losing time and production in the process.

As far as the NC lacquer, yes. Absolutely my favorite. I do have a respirator, though. I even use it sometimes.

Anyway, thanks again for your responses. I hope to find a viable alternative to this problem very soon.

Space is a big concern, as is cost- but I am well aware that the price of a safer machine is worth the expenditure.. one trip to the hospital costs more than a better machine, usually with the purchase of the better machine following the hospital visit anyway..

[Steve Flavin001]

in your missive!! One does not have any need to buy two shapers, spindles, or flip shaper cutters to reverse them. The normal procedure is to use a reversing switch that reverses direction of the motor. I am unable to send you a photo or specs at this hour of the morning, but would be happy to do so later if you wish. I have been using mine for 32 years very happily!

To the others who recommended a 3 hp shaper, they are equally mistaken. A half horse shaper or router are more than enough for the light work that Rich says he is doing. 3 HP shapers work nicely for 8', :rolleyes: 2" thick entry doors.

Finally, to use one note here, a shaper is no more dangerous than the router is operated properly. :rolleyes:

[Peter Quinn]

Imagine putting a leash on a cocker spaniel and walking it...pulls a little.

Now put a leash on a bull mastiff and walk that...pulls a lot more no? Thats my impression of the difference between a router table and a shaper.

As to steve's post about 1/2 HP shapers, don't waste your time with those toys. If you are building using 8/4 hardwood as you stated I assume you are talking about solid body electrics or making your own necks, either of which is best done on a 3HP or above shaper. 1 1/4" spindle allows you to run a Bird shelix spindle molding head in 1 1/2"-4" height depending on your need, with a bearing for freehand pattern work, which should cut down on tear out considerably. Check out the Grizzly site or Bird's site for more info.

I can actually stop my router bit from spinning (though I don't do this intentionally) and can generally control the work piece when doing climb cuts with a 2" pattern makers bit in challenging grain with curved work, where as I wont do freehand climb cuts on my shaper in any event, as the 3HP induction motor pulls more like a mastiff than spaniel! I really hate running the motor in reverse for pattern work as the potential for the nut to loosen is always there and you are staring at the cutter...very scary.

I don't see many people using Doug Fir for guitars. What is the application? Sound board on an acoustic? Fir almost always requires a climb cut for the things I have used it for, as does cedar.

[Steve Flavin001]

I meant to refer :rolleyes: to the 1/2" spindle shaft on my Rockwell (now Delta) shaper. It' s H.P. is about 2 H.P. Wih 1/2 x 3/4" bushings it uses most shaper cutter up to about 2 1/2" diam or more with a sub table.

Sorry for my error.

Steve

[Jamie Buxton]

I haven't used a pin router myself, but I have an acquaintance who builds chairs. He used to use a shaper for pattern-shaping many parts, but has retired it in favor of a pin router. He says he gets much less tear-out.

[William Addison]

I'm a shaper person but I use routers on occasion.

For guitars, you might want to get a shaper large enough to handle the cutters with insert cutters that look like a planer or jointer cutter head. You can get them from Byrd or Grizzy and they really do work better for pattern work.

I've used shapers from 11/2 to 71/2 hp and found that 2 will do much more than I would have thought but I don't think they'd handle a feeder. You need to get 3 or better because of the larger table which you need for pattern work.

As to safety, the shaper doesn't get you just a little bit because it pulls things into the cutter but so long as I'm using cutters and not knives, I think it's pretty safe especially with a feeder.

I think that it got it's reputation for being so dangerous from situations where you are using knives and particularly the old collar knives which could come out.

I make one item that requires me to remove the guards and fences and shape with a 4" cutter head that has custom knives. After making the required twenty passes, I usually need to rest.

[Butch Edwards]

As far as the NC lacquer, yes. Absolutely my favorite. I do have a respirator, though. I even use it sometimes.


I know several axe builders...they all use Nitro,for a reason...;)

I'd like to see some pics of your work, have any ?

[Charlie Plesums]

Another vote for the shaper (I no longer have a router table at all). I have both the 3/4 and 1 1/4 spindles... just as it didn't seem like there should be a difference between a 1/4 and a 1/2 inch router bit (but there is), I believe the 1 1/4 inch spindle is a lot better. And make sure you have enough horsepower (mine is 4.7 hp)

Reversing the cutter requires more than the reverse switch... with the cutter going the other direction, the cutting edge of the tool has to face the other way, so you have to flip the cutter over. That makes a big difference in which side is the reference (which side rides on the table) or which way you can tilt the shaper, but it doesn't make a climb cut... Regular rotation feeds from right to left for a regular cut, left to right for a climb cut. Reverse rotation feeds from left to right for a regular cut, right to left for a climb cut.

Most people I know won't try a climb cut with a shaper unless a power feeder is controlling the material.

[J.R. Rutter]

With all of the furniture plants that have been closing, a used pin router should be easy to find. I used to have an old overarm where the table moved up/down with a foot pedal. A pneumatic head would be easier, or inverted like Onsrud. I think that your decision rests on how heavy of a cut you need to make. Trimming to pattern lends itself to the router - higher speed with a spiral bit makes for a sweet finished surface, and you can use it for boring and mortising.

Heavier shaping lends itself, appropriately enough, to the shaper. I've done curved table legs using an insert head and bearing. You will still need to sand - more than with the router. I'm partial to the European shapers, very smooth.

With the right tooling, you should not have to climb cut on either machine. I don't freehand climb anything lager than a small roundover or rabbet. I do run single pass climb cuts on drawer face blanks using panel cutters. You definitely need to have the feeder set properly and a very smooth, strong machine for this.

[Rich Rice]

I'm getting a feeling that a pin router would serve me best, and the shaper would be more of a lateral move.. Almost all of my work involves following shop made templates with at least a few tight curves. Most of the time I've been using 1/2" or 3/8" pattern bits. Probably safer and more useful to have a pin router I can set up to really hang onto the workpiece, and change to spiral bits. I'm always doing climb cuts freehand, and it's just too scary... :mad:

Thanks for all the input. It is very helpful.

Rich

[David DeCristoforo]

"...a pin router would serve me best..."

Pin routers are good but you are still limited to using small diameter router bits. You can put more power behind them but you really can't get much more "capacity" than you get with a hand held router, whether it's mounted in a table or not. On the other hand, freehand "climb cutting" is simply not an option on the shaper and with curved work, a feeder is not going to work too well most of the time. So, if your "main issue" is power, the pin router might be the better choice as long as you are aware of the potential for bit breakage due to the application of several "real" horsepower being applied to a small (and maybe fairly long) bit.

[Peter Quinn]

This may sound crazy but if your talking about the tight curves on a strat style guitar where the body curves away from the neck, can you use a spindle sander on a drill press with bearing to sand to the line? Or a micro plane?

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=11201&cs=1

[Rich Rice]

This may sound crazy but if your talking about the tight curves on a strat style guitar where the body curves away from the neck, can you use a spindle sander on a drill press with bearing to sand to the line? Or a micro plane?

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=11201&cs=1

Not crazy at all. I used to do the drum sander on my drill press, I currently run two oscillating spindle sanders. They do a pretty good job, but I have a tendency to change the shape of the MDF templates after a couple of bodies.. It is also quite time consuming. I would prefer to cut them accurately in one or two passes. I like the look of those micro planers, and will order a set to try. Thanks for the tip!

[Rod Sheridan]

in your missive!! One does not have any need to buy two shapers, spindles, or flip shaper cutters to reverse them. The normal procedure is to use a reversing switch that reverses direction of the motor. I am unable to send you a photo or specs at this hour of the morning, but would be happy to do so later if you wish. I have been using mine for 32 years very happily!

To the others who recommended a 3 hp shaper, they are equally mistaken. A half horse shaper or router are more than enough for the light work that Rich says he is doing. 3 HP shapers work nicely for 8', :rolleyes: 2" thick entry doors.

Finally, to use one note here, a shaper is no more dangerous than the router is operated properly. :rolleyes:

Hi Steve, I can tell it was early in the morning when I made my post, as the grammer indicates.

I think you also were suffering from early morning fatigue as I did indicate that shapers have reversible spindle rotation in my post.

The issue I have with your reply is that I haven't figured out how to reverse spindle rotation without flipping the cutter over, unless I want the cutter rotating backwards....Regards, Rod.

[J. Z. Guest]

Well, I vote for the shaper; they're more versatile. The only caveat is to make sure shaper cutters are available for the profiles you want to cut. Since router tables are used by amateurs, there are a TON of bit options that may not be available on a shaper.

On the other hand, if you have problems with a piece of wood being grabbed or your hand being pulled towards the bit, you'd better pass on the shaper. A shaper can eat your whole hand in the blink of an eye. And we're not talking a clean cut, we're talking ground beef and red mist. :(

[Jeff Duncan]

We'll the shaper is certainly more versatile as far as using bigger cutters to do more varied work. However if your primarily going to use it as you described and are more concerned with safety, I strongly recommend looking at inverted routers. Much more powerful than your current setup and safer too as the bit comes up from below the table once your workpiece and template are in place.
Go to the Onsrud website and watch the video for their inverted routers and I think you will be impressed. The only downside is that unless you find a good deal on a used one, they are pricey.
good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Grizzly makes an inverted router that while no onsrud, does an effective job and costs less. I've used it at work and its decent for the money.

Rich, I can see where a typical OSS would change your pattern, I was looking at spindles for the drill press that use a hard rubber bearing which follows the pattern below the work. I've never used them and worry about putting that kind of lateral force on my DP, but might try one soon.

I should mention I've never made a guitar but have been playing since I was a kid and have flirted with the idea. my fear is I will go through all the work to make a product that is less playable than my tele, or martin, or epiphone, or alverez, or gibson, or maybe I have enough guitars already? Something about a wood working project that has to look good, feel good AND sound good that intimidates me.

I have much respect for the luthiers art.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Get the best you can afford and get a power feeder.

Felder, Format, Hammer, and MM are nice Martin is the Cadillac.