New Maple finishsing problem

[John Keane]

This relates a little bit to a Tony Cox thread on washcoat posted a couple of days ago.

I am making a six drawer jewelry box out of curly maple. The construction went fine, the finishing not so good. My previous experience with a maple piece proved to be a super finishing challenge that never came close to satisfying me. I have taken great pains with this new piece, following all of the advice from this forum, Flexner and Joe the Handyman forum.

I previously applied an Amber dye. that dried orange. My wife said yuk! I stripped the color with my Rotex in aggressive mode and then resanded up to 180 grit in the rotary mode. I wiped it down with MS and then applied a washcoat of 3 parts DNA to 2 parts Seal Coat. Everything looks good. I shadow shone a flourescent light on all of the parts and no scratches or blemishes or glue marks were evident. I took the plunge and applied a coat of Dk Vintage Maple dye, and every swirl, scratch and whatever showed up and different portions had different shades.

This is long winded, but I am between a rock and a hard place. What do I do now?

[Joe Chritz]

Dye really doesn't work well after a sealcoat.

You will most likely have to sand it out and refinish. You may be able to get some luck by wiping heavily with a rag soaked in DNA. Did you cut the dye with alcohol?

Wiping the board with mineral spirits or naptha before staining will often show those marks before finish.

Also you can get by with 150 on red oak or other open grained wood but really need to go over the 180 on maple. Try 220 ROS then 220 by hand.

Joe

[Steve Schoene]

Joe has given you good info. I'll just add a point or two.

The amber dye may have fooled you if you didn't check out the color with a coat of your intended top coat. Dried dye color can be dramatically different, and almost always worse, that what it will look like when top coated.

I also agree that a ROS should almost never be the final sanding step. Hand sanding, with the grain, gives better results. And, on maple I would definately go to 220, as Joe said.

My last bit of advice--although it is a bit late. Work out your entire finishing schedule on samples of the same wood before you apply anything to the wood. In fact it's a good idea to this before cutting the first joint. Then, starting over just means a couple of passes through the planer.

[Joe Chritz]

Good catch Steve.

I forgot to mention that. Dye always looks a bit like, well, the stuff I spent an hour hauling out of the horse paddock, until you get a finish on.

I will second, 3rd and 100th the advice for scrap. Unless you have used the finish already, never ever go straight to product. Chalk that one up to lesson learned. Been there done that, didn't learn the first time.

Joe

[Jim Becker]

Joe brings up a good point...and another reason why you should be working out the regimen on scrap from the project. You cannot look at the dye alone...it has to be sealed and top-coated before you know what the actual color and "result" will look like. Dyes tend to look garish and muddy sometimes until you do the next steps.

[lowell holmes]

I'm completing a curly maple chair.

The guys at Homestead Heritage use Deft Danish Oil, which has more varnish in it than other brands. They have a maple chair that they make that is finished with a alcohol dye stain and then several coats of Deft oil.
I will apply the (diluted) alcohol dye with a hvlp gun. When the shade is right I will use the Deft oil. Samples that I have prepared indicate this will work.

If you check their website, you can see their chair.

[lowell holmes]

I should have mentioned that I sand to 320 grit with the ros and then drop back to 120 grit and sand to 2000 grit by hand. It sounds laborious, but with a proper sanding block, it doesn't take long.

[Howard Acheson]

>> I should have mentioned that I sand to 320 grit with the ros and then drop back to 120 grit and sand to 2000 grit by hand.

Why would you do that? Sanding to 320 and then going back to 120 serves no purpose. Just go to 320 sanding by hand and move up from there.

Personally, I would not use a ROS with any grit above 220. Particularly on a hard wood like maple. It would tend to burnish the wood surface which can cause uneven absorption your finish. Sanding wood above 220 (even by hand) is not productive. Any liquid that you apply to the surface will cause the wood fibers to swell and you will have to re-sand to get a smooth surface again.

[lowell holmes]

The ros leaves little swirls. The reason for using it to begin with is to take the really large tool marks, gouges, etc. Going back to 120 by hand aligns all sanding marks in the same direction. Progressively going up in grade eliminates the marks left before it and finally the 2000 grit leaves a polished surface. I attended a lecture by Jerry De ??? (can't remember his last name) and he described the method, only he did stop at 220 grit. The grooves left in the wood with a pigment stain applied will give a more uniform appearance.
The curly maple I've been working with is not hard maple and no burnishing has taken place. I'm using an alcohol dye.

If burnishing of the wood appeared, I would fall back to lower numbered grit to rough up the surface. I will keep a watch on it now that you've mentioned it. The sample coupons haven't manifest burnishing to this point. I certainly don't want to sand it after the dye goes on. :-)

[Joe Chritz]

While I could argue the virtues of both dropping back 100 grit to start by hand and going to 2000 grit the idea of using a sprayed alcohol dye and a wiping varnish top coat is very solid.

With very light coats it is possible to accomplish nearly anything tone wise on the project. Plus cut with alcohol the dye dries so fast you can get nearly instant feed back or the ability to do multi coats and finish coats on samples without waiting days.

Hand sanding after a ROS in nearly always a good idea on closed grain woods. I would (and often do) stop at 220 ROS and hand sand with 220.

Joe

[lowell holmes]

I will revisit sanding to higher grits. :-)
The real benefit from continued sanding is that I almost allways find very small dings and scratches that I overlooked before. My sanding is done prior to glue up and touched up afterwards. I can sand sand with a coarser grit after the fine sanding if I need to and I will explore doing that. Jerry Ter Hark is the lecturer I mentioned earlier. He suggests 220 grit also.

[John Keane]

Joe, I followed your recommended sanding regimen, and got the anticipated results on my "practice board". I let the dye dry overnight and on Sunday wiped it down with a coat of BLO. Today I gave it one coat of 50/50 Seal Coat/DNA as recommended by someone on Salt . Not impressed. Reviewing Seal Coat threads, Steve Schoene advised one coat undiluted. Steve's counsel is usually dead on. Jim Becker is also most reliable. I now intend to put a clear coat of Minwax natural (because I have a can of it) followed by Rockhard. I would appreciate a vote of confidence or a "you might consider this approach" to my finishing plan.
My thanks to all for your present and past efforts at guidance