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Zac Altman
04-18-2008, 12:29 PM
I am going to start out by saying, I am still in school and I have a friend who is also interested and is helping me (i am the main driving force behind it).

I live in Sydney, Australia. The reason I am saying where i live is because there are a fair few laser businesses where I live, but none that are doing what I plan to do.

I have found a small shop across from a large shopping centre (Westfield - you know it originated in Sydney). It is only 15sqm, but it only costs $180 per week. (remember this is all in Australian dollars, and despite our good exchange rate, everything is still more expensive here). Well anyway, this shopping centre is a place where lots of people, including teens, go to buy stuff, see movies and eat. As you do in a shopping centre.

I found that the cost of an Epilog Mini 18x12 25 Watt system is upwards of $18,000 with everything included (it's a special deal, yet it still seems like a lot). I have heard that the lasers are marked up a lot, so I hope to get the laser down to about $16,000 (hoping...). It comes with he rotary attachment and 2 years warranty (parts and labour). It also comes with all of the other possible attachmewnts, bu ti cant be bothered to list them. Is this just a method to sell everything to me? I asked if I could get just the laser, but they said that it was a special deal? Oh, it also comes with Corel X4.

Now what will i be doing?
Laser engraving iPods, Phones, Laptops...
I looked around and there are quite a few people doing it in the US, but none that I can find doing it in Sydney. I know that almost anyone with a laser can do it, but no one advertise it, so no one thinks of getting it done. So that would be my main business.

I have used an Epilog 18x12 45 Watt at school to engrave various things for fun, including my iPhone. So I know how to use one and there is no doubt that i will get a lot better when I play with it more.

So what do you guys think? What else can I market besides iPods, Laptops and Phones? What about the price of the laser, what are methods of bargaining down?

Any comments???...

Craig Hogarth
04-18-2008, 12:57 PM
Zac, search around the forums for ideas on what others are doing with their lasers. Check out the following suppliers. This will give you a broad idea of different products you can sell.

www.laserbits.com
www.jdsindustries.com
www.coloradoheirloom.com
www.lasersketch.com
www.pdu.com

I wouldn't focus so much on ipods and laptops immediately. Mistakes are fairly common during the first few months and I'd recommend learning the trade before attempting to engrave expensive products regularly. But it does sound like you've had some training on it, so you may be ready.

BTW, I don't do laptops or Ipods. It's not worth the risk to me.

Joe Pelonio
04-18-2008, 1:11 PM
I hate to sound discouraging, but ... find other needs to fill before you buy a laser.

I have done a few, remember some will be metal that you cannot engrave, you might only be able to do them with Cermark, an expensive chemical that turns black when laser etched.

First thing to do is decide what you might be able to charge, and see how many you will have to do before you make a dollar. You have a big investment to pay off. If I did only electronics and charged $30 each, I would have needed to do about 600 of them to break even. How many people do you think will come in daily? How many can you do in a day if you have the customers?

Also, I do not advertise them specifically because they are a pain. People will want their own graphics, which will be provided in a lousy form. You will have to make a jig for each brand and model and catalog them, and if you mess up at all you have just bought a $400 I-pod or $2,000 laptop.

I have business insurance that would cover such things with a $100 deductible but I imagine after 2-3 they would raise my already high rates.

Zac Altman
04-18-2008, 1:14 PM
Well what do you guys do that makes you money? It just looks to me as if the electronics market is much bigger...

Doug Jones from Oregon
04-18-2008, 1:22 PM
Zac, I think your idea has legs, just not mature legs, yet! The youth market seems to have unlimited funds to spend on their toys, and personalizing them, both for security and the fun of it...could have merit.

First thing you have to do though is write a business plan, and be honest with yourself as you formalize it. There are a number of books on this topic, as well as help to be found on the web...do your homework (you did mention you are a student so this should not be a new concept for you). Perhaps there is an instructor in your school that could review your plan for you.

Do your homework and keep thinking about what it is your peers are spending their money on, watch their hands and see what they are holding...

Best of luck.

Doug

AL Ursich
04-18-2008, 1:33 PM
Would a used laser be more cost effective? Would laser service be available locally? Who maintains the School Laser? Can you find out how much the maintenance contract costs?

You are at the right place to ask. I would think color sublimation would be a good fit too for the tourist and school market.

I have been to Australia twice, 1978 Geraldton, WA and 1990 Brumbe, WA in my Navy days. A wonderful place to visit.

AL

Kayne Gill
04-18-2008, 1:37 PM
Just an idea for you Zac.

What about looking into a stall at Circular Key make a number of different items for the enormous number of tourists that pass through there. Make things like marble pictures of Sydney skyline, Opera House or Harbor Bridge. On the same line make them from Leather, Wood, Glass. and maybe even insert a small clock into the design. There is may tourist dollars to be had along there, and although its been a while, last I saw they just sell Asian made rubbish.

If you get all the attachments, the rotary attachment would be good to do wine glasses. You will also find that if you put a sign out that you can do custom work, that the business clients that use the train and key as transport will give you the odd order as well.

One big problem of course would be getting all your products there, probably need a hand from someone, and again home at end of day.

I had a friend busking there earning up to $300 a day during school holidays. Of course when you get older that drops off as he was 16 at the time so he got a lot of people saying "Ow how nice!!" and dropping a few dollars in.

Zac Altman
04-18-2008, 1:41 PM
Well ive been doing my research/homework (well at least i feel like i am).

There are 5 major schools within 10 min drive from this shopping centre. All of these schools are private schools (as opposed to public schools which are government funded, private schools are funded by school fees which are upwards of $10,000 per year). Each of these schools have more than 1500 students each. Approx. 90% of these students own an iPod. There are about 5 or so smaller schools in this area as well with at least 400 students each, i will assume at least 20% of these students have an iPod. I know a fair few people from each of the 5 major schools in this area, so I have "access" into those school's markets, if you know what I mean. That is at least 6000 students with iPods in this area alone, that is within 10-15 mins of the shop. Im not saying everyone will get theirs engraved

The maths, you need only 10% of those people to pay off the machine. Business would generally start out slow, but there are certain methods that could bring masses in in the beginning, such as the one stated below as well as good advertising and an opening sale. It is in a busy area, so good signage would mean lot sof people will see it.

The only issue people have found so far is that they are worried that it would break their iPod, but if they see that it has worked on others, i assume that issue will disappear

You give a few people a freebie, they show their friends, they want it. In theory it could spread like a virus, if implemented well enough.

As for price, i think i have found a good pricepoint. I was thinking of a tiered system to appeal to different people.

Large Graphics and small graphics at different pricepoints, text with graphic is cheaper, etc

Luke Phillips
04-18-2008, 2:05 PM
Looks like you have your heart set on doing the ipods, etc. - nothing wrong with that but sometimes what we think is a great idea doesn't work out too well. By all means go for what you feel passion about but also plan to have some fallback work - the more mundane stuff - to keep some revenue coming in.

Are there any government programs in Australia that help young entreprenures? Grants? Look into leasing options for the equipment - might be easier than a bank loan - unless you have a rich relative. For the tourist market - I might suggest you hook up with an Aboriginal artist and laser that onto stone/exotic woods - something a bit unique don't you think? Best of luck - always turn to the SMC for tips!:)

Joe Pelonio
04-18-2008, 2:30 PM
Zac, I think your idea has legs, just not mature legs, yet! The youth market seems to have unlimited funds to spend on their toys, and personalizing them, both for security and the fun of it...could have merit.


Doug
Here it's the opposite, they have too much money. Look at the local high school parking lots to see all the Lexus and BMWs driven by 16 year olds. Many will order their I-pods direct from Apple and pay them to engrave it.

I have no doubt that by advertising in a school publication I could get a lot of business but it's just too much trouble for the money. I much prefer doing production wholesale work, such as cutting acrylic letters for other sign shops. Like the electronics, any other personalizing of expensive items has risk of damage to it, especially the first of that item where you have to experiment with the settings.

Rodne Gold
04-18-2008, 2:45 PM
Good intentions , bad market.....listen to some of the experienced folk here who have lasers and business smarts.
Relying on school kids for ipod engraving is not a good idea.

David Fairfield
04-18-2008, 3:16 PM
Joe P has made some good points. Have you looked at these businesses that engrave electronics? Are they making it on just that service alone, or do they sell these electronics, or other accessories, too? Maybe they engrave other things. A laser is a lot of eggs to put in one basket.

Maybe you could team up with a cell phone / laptop distributor? You operate under their roof, as long as you are giving them a cut or steering business to them, it should work well for both parties.

My sweet spot for engraving is corporate premiums-- for example, I design one graphic and engrave 300 units. I've found that doing one-offs is a pain in the butt. In fact I have a PITB surcharge. And any job where you have only one shot at getting it right can be stressful, in proportion to the cost of the item being engraved.

If you go ahead with your plan, I would limit customer options, otherwise you'll be wasting a lot of time on kid's goofy requests and their unusuable fuzzy graphics they got off the internet. Exactly as Joe said, this is what happens. Have them pick from a catalog of designs. Charge high for custom work, basically high enough that 98% of them will leave.

HTH
Dave

Frank Corker
04-18-2008, 3:32 PM
Zac, well I believe you have a great idea, I would say run with it but you need to go about it in a slightly different way, approach your nearest laser dealer and see what the costs would be to hire it for short or long term contract. It is possible to lease these things and quite a few are able to because the machines are so expensive.

If you idea pays off and you are flooded with work you could be quids in, provided you are good at it. Now here you will have seen that there are a few 'reserved' words of advice and there is a reason for it. We have all been down that road where we were at the point of kicking ourselves for the faith we placed in our laser machines potential earnings. Imagine having paid out over 18 grand for a machine and work trickles in, it does happen, despite how wonderful your engraving might be. I can't really think of many, who have come to the site with a firm belief in the beginning, that this was going to be a fortune begging to drop into their lap and it really happen for them! It's far from that believe me. I remember the first 6 months being mad busy and money coming in hand over fist, that was because I knew most of the people who were passing me on to others. Then it went a bit quieter for the next 6 months. Then dead the 3 months after that. Boy I was happy...NOT


There are many here who have laser machines which are just the 'topping' on the cake for their owners. A lot carry out a varied range of woodworking skills, for which the laser was there to enhance. For them no doubt the machine will earn it's money, some in a matter of months, they are to be applauded because they are the top of the ladder. Those and the one's who do this part time without the need to worry if the machine brings no money in at all, because it is more of a hobby than a business.

For the others who rely solely on the laser machines for their money, they have to be good at what they do because no one is going to buy to have crappy engraving, no matter how cheap they are. This is why you are not getting too much encouragement to go ahead with your idea, we're fearful for what the pitfalls can be, what everyone has said is actually good advice.

Your plan IS a good idea, no doubt about it, if you didn't have that 18 grand issue it would be brilliant. Everyone here who owns a laser engraving machine believed that when they were going to buy theirs, I wonder how many of them are regretting their decision to buy, I wouldn't even like to poll the members because a lot could never admit openly that the outgoing costs were too great. Many will have wished that they had leased theirs, even if the pricing for the leasing was high, it would have been less than 18 grand.

Do your maths and market research for your plans, you will need those just to get a loan or in the case of a lease, the knowledge that the plan is going to work. You will have a few of your mates saying, 'Great idea, you'll make a fortune from it, I'd have mine done..... blah de blah blah", it's not worth a carrot mate! One or two really good weeks or maybe months (if your test pieces are good enough for others to want the same) then it will pale into the distance, you would have to start hard selling your potential customers. It's all good advice.

Mike Null
04-18-2008, 3:46 PM
If you can't pay cash, don't do it. If you have to sign a lease for more than three months at a time, don't do it.

I like your enthusiasm and your idea's not a bad idea but I think you may have overestimated your market.

Vicky Orsini
04-18-2008, 4:00 PM
Many will order their I-pods direct from Apple and pay them to engrave it.
Actually, that's not entirely true. Apple only engraves 2 lines of plain text. Most kids would love to have graphics on there instead, if they knew they could. ;)

Other items to offer the well-to-do teen market:
- laser engrave paintball markers
- aluminium dog tags
- laser engrave leather cell phone/ipod cases
Actually, I picked up an anodized aluminium case for my 3rd gen Nano. I'm trying to settle on a design to etch onto it. I got it at WalMart for $10. I wonder what kids would pay for one of those instead of marking up their ipods directly? Much safer for you to tackle, too!

Joe Pelonio
04-18-2008, 4:37 PM
I'll give some examples of the few jobs I have done for local teens that found me via google searches:

Engraved Acrylic panels to be edge lit for installation in a high school student's classic Mustang Show Car (was exhibited at the Seattle Roadster show)

Switch panels for controlling hydraulics and/or interior lighting on vehicles

Dashboard control panel for computer mounted in the trunk of a car, with screen mounted on glove box door

Signs and laser cut parts for a local high school robotics team project

As Vicky suggested, leather cases for electronics (much less risk to the laserist)

Laser cut acrylic letters to put on bedroom walls or doors

Michael Bareno
04-18-2008, 4:44 PM
Zac,
I was in a very similar position to yours about 6 months ago when I started looking for a laser engraver, partially because I was impressed by ipod/laptop engraving videos on youtube. I decided that I was going to start the business, but I had found the SMC forum and I read almost all of the posts starting from the oldest ones. One thing I realized immediately is that you will find more posts about engraving pet urns (for example) than iPods. There had to be a reason for that. When doing my businessplan, I had expanded it from a gift item engraving business to include awards, plaques, signs, souvenirs etc.

About 4 months ago I purchased a refurbished Mini18 35w (paid cash) and so far I have engraved ONE iPod, my wife's. It took me 2+ hours to create the template and to find the right images, and of course, I couldn't charge for the job. Also, there was that uneasy feeling before I pushed the GO button, despite doing a couple of testruns before with masking tape on.

So far, my company has been mostly busy with room number and name signs, some souvenir items, awards and plaques. Very few personalized items. And I believe most people on this forum will agree, they would rather do a job for 100x promotional items than 1x custom engraving because it's usually more profitable.

Craig Hogarth
04-18-2008, 4:44 PM
Actually, I picked up an anodized aluminium case for my 3rd gen Nano. I'm trying to settle on a design to etch onto it. I got it at WalMart for $10. I wonder what kids would pay for one of those instead of marking up their ipods directly? Much safer for you to tackle, too!


http://www.sourcingmap.com/ipod-shuffle-cases-c-983_1070.html

I've been meaning to order these for a while, but just haven't gotten around to it. This place has them cheap enough to engrave them and sell for the same price you paid for it at walmart.

David Fairfield
04-18-2008, 7:13 PM
Actually, that's not entirely true. Apple only engraves 2 lines of plain text. Most kids would love to have graphics on there instead, if they knew they could. ;)

With good reason Apple only allows a simple two-liner. The same reason why I suggested customers should pick from a limited catalog of designs. Custom one-offs are just not big money generators, they are on the other hand, big headache generators.

If I wanted to make money off teenagers I'd triangulate the greatest number of High Schools within walking distance and open a McDonalds franchise there. :)

Dave

Dee Gallo
04-18-2008, 7:56 PM
http://www.sourcingmap.com/ipod-shuffle-cases-c-983_1070.html

I've been meaning to order these for a while, but just haven't gotten around to it. This place has them cheap enough to engrave them and sell for the same price you paid for it at walmart.

Craig - This place has good prices for stuff kids and adults would use and like, thanks for the address! It should come in handy!

Zak - are the school mascots or logos as big where you are as in the States? Maybe you could aim for that market, providing ipod, phone & laptop cases, etc. which would be pre-designed, safely engraved on cheaper substrates and appeal to a broader market than one-offs (easier for you too). You might even get large orders for door prizes at proms, school/college bookstores, sports teams, scouting events, etc. You could offer some as unique awards, too, which would be a double attraction - personalized glory and portable! Just what kids like. Sometimes the trophies just pile up and nobody ever sees them, but this could be a subtle excuse to brag.

cheers, dee

Dan Hintz
04-18-2008, 8:41 PM
The only issue people have found so far is that they are worried that it would break their iPod, but if they see that it has worked on others, i assume that issue will disappear
And things can also go the other way... all it takes is a couple of messed up $400 iPods and word is out you ruin stuff. Your school-kid market goes to hell in a handbasket over the period of a week. Now you're stuck with little to no business, a bad rep, $18k in laser bills, and possibly a year's lease at $700+/month.

A positive attitude is great to have, but so is a realistic one that plans for pitfalls.

Dee Gallo
04-18-2008, 9:35 PM
Zac - sorry about the "Zak" - one more thing to think about is buying an Epilog Zing, which is less than half the price of what you are looking at and might be a good unit to start with.

Personally, I bought a used Epilog Eclipse on eBay (stop laughing, you guys!) for a puny $3000. It has been a reliable workhorse for 4 years and still going strong. But listen to what these guys are saying - they represent a lot of experience, both positive and negative - a business plan is essential! When I bought mine (blind - not really smart) , I already had a solid customer base, and the machine paid for itself X3 in the first year. I recently bought a new Mini since I expect the Eclipse to die any time. It will pay for itself in 6 months. That's what a solid plan will get you. I'm no genius, but I don't like to bet either.

Is there a way you can work from your home until you build a business that could support rent? Are you still in school? Can you do an experiment using the school's laser making some low price items, maybe as a school fundraiser to see if the kids are as jazzed about engraving as you are? Maybe something for the graduating class, to involve parents buying too? This kind of research will tell you loads about demand, time, your skill level on the computer as well as the laser, potential for a business and whether you like it or not.

Can you tell I'm a teacher? Don't mean to sound like that, I love your enthusiasm...but this forum can and will help you to avoid painful and expensive mis-steps. They help me every day!

cheers, dee

Zac Altman
04-18-2008, 9:45 PM
Well...

I just wonder, have you guys ever marketed that you engrave iPods and such?

Also, from what i've seen, you cant break an iPod with a laser cutter because that would involve cutting through metal which laser cutters cant do, so like some others said: read, re-read, re-re-read, check, recheck (i dont quite remember it, but it was sorta along those lines)

The worst you can do is screw up the design, which can be fixed by the library and have templates for all of the iPods and for the common laptops.

As for schools, no logos, well none that people would get engraved. No mascots over here.

The markets idea is good, i cold go there every once in a while.

The rent for the place I chose is only $180 per week. I would need to do 28 iPods per week, for 28 weeks to break even. But you think, for Christmas time, there will be a few more people getting things personalised because of Christkmas.

I dont think i mentioned, but I will also be selling cheap accessories for iPods in the shop, where I could potentially make $1000 or so in that timeframe if only 3 accessories are sold a week (they wont cost the customer more than $5)

Joe Pelonio
04-18-2008, 9:52 PM
With good reason Apple only allows a simple two-liner. The same reason why I suggested customers should pick from a limited catalog of designs. Custom one-offs are just not big money generators, they are on the other hand, big headache generators.

If I wanted to make money off teenagers I'd triangulate the greatest number of High Schools within walking distance and open a McDonalds franchise there. :)

Dave
I agree on your first point about one-offs.

On the other hand, it may be different there, but here the McD and Jack in Box are like ghost towns during the day. There are two high schools, one a block away, the other under a mile, and the teens won't be seen there. They are considered places for little kids. They all get sandwiches at the deli in Safeway or go to the Taco Bell.

Mike Null
04-18-2008, 10:00 PM
In 10 years I have done one I-phone, no I-pods and no computers.

I make my living at this business. I am able to do that because my customers come back for repeat orders or new work.

If your parents are rich or you aren't concerned about losing money then take a chance.

In plain simple English, your marketing numbers are grossly over-stated.

Zac Altman
04-18-2008, 10:17 PM
Also, another one of my ideas to bring people in is:
I know and are "friends" with the manager and many people who work in the Next Byte store in Rushcutters Bay (formerly known as frequency). Rushcutters bay is about a 10-20min drive to Bondi Junction (where the store will be located).

Well, the idea is that I engrave a couple of their iPods and computers (for free of course) and tell them about me and give them flyers and business cards so that when people ask about it, they can refer them to me. The question is, would they be interested in this offer. What do they gain from it? I havent spoken to them yet, but I need to figure out some way that it benefits them.

Maybe that it makes them stand out, being the only computer store with engraved iPods and Laptops, bet then again it does reduce their chance of selling it, but it could also increase their chance. I dont think they sell the iPods when the new ones come out, i think only the laptops.

So you engrave acrylic, wood and marble for people, right? What do they use it for? Signage,, marketing items, name tags. What about restaurants? Their cups? Do you think there would be interest in that?

Also, anyone else from Sydney or Australia in these forums?

Kayne Gill
04-18-2008, 10:42 PM
Yes signs and gifts are good for restaurants. There was someone on this form that even made chocolate molds that could be used for the restaurant to make after diner chocolates or to go with the coffee/tea/liqueur. There is so many things that a laser can do it would be difficult to list it all. if you have connections in the schools I would suggest going after the awards engraving. I know sports are much bigger in Australian schools than I have seen in most other parts of the world.

Last part of your question. I used to live in Australia. Sydney for about 8 years, and Brisbane for about 10 years.

Richard Rumancik
04-18-2008, 10:49 PM
Well...I just wonder, have you guys ever marketed that you engrave iPods and such?

Zac - welcome. I admire your enthusiasm.

I haven't told anybody I can do an iPod because I'd rather not. Personally, I don't like taking something worth $50 or $200 and making marks on it, for which I can only charge a few dollars. It's bad enough to ruin a $20 piece of wood, never mind something that you can't fix or replace easily.

Once a customer came to me with a $75 pen and wanted a name marked on it. It was a rush, plus it could not be replaced quickly. They did not know what kind of coating was on the pen. How much do you charge for this? I declined. Some people have no problem engraving gunstocks etc but I'd rather not mark on customer-owner goods.

I'd rather take an item (or raw material) worth $5 or $10 and make it into something worth $50 or $100. If it doesn't work out, I have lost my raw material and labor.

Someone suggested pet memorials. Take a $5 or $10 piece of granite and get good at imaging photos. Same idea for anniversary plaques etc. Sell for $50 or $100.

I suggest you keep looking at more options for lasering. You don't have to give up on iPods as I realize you have your heart in it, but you might not find iPods alone will be enough.

Don't be discouraged . . . keep investigating. Do you have access to any trade magazines? That might give you more ideas to supplement the iPod engraving.

Joe Pelonio
04-18-2008, 10:50 PM
So you engrave acrylic, wood and marble for people, right? What do they use it for? Signage,, marketing items, name tags. What about restaurants? Their cups? Do you think there would be interest in that?


One thing to remember with things like cups is that they can get those from any of the may advertising specialties places that have them screen printed or etched in China for way less than we can do it for. We have to think of things that the laser can do that cannot be done in less expensive ways.

Most of my restaurant work is vinyl, not laser, though I do a fair amount of engraved labels signs for buffet item names that go on the sneeze guards.
One in particular is a franchise so I send them all over the country, but then most of the work I do for them is still vinyl.

Rodne Gold
04-19-2008, 3:06 AM
i would never have my ipod/laptop/camera or whatever permanently laser engraved or personalised.....it's not saleable when I want to upgrade.

But at any rate , Zac is worrying this idea like a dawg wth a bone , despte us advising otherwise so perhaps he should go full steam ahead and learn by smacking his head against the wall. In 10 yrs of lasering and having a big engraving shop , we have never been asked to or have done an ipod or laptop. We have branded memory sticks that are given out as promo items.
Zac , imho your persistence in wanting to go this route is good in one way but bad in the fact that its blinkering you.

David Fairfield
04-19-2008, 9:54 AM
Enthusiasm is always an excellent asset. In this case, I'd contemplate where the motivation is coming from. Is your enthusiasm directed towards electronic gear, or towards engraving?

Its an important question to answer honestly. It might be cool to burn designs into kid's gadgets, but at the end of the day, you're just another small engraving shop. If you're hot on the engraving & graphics aspect, you'll try enough different ideas until you find ways to make the laser profitable, and you'll be OK. On the other hand, if its a fascination with electronic gadgets and interacting with youngsters, you're at risk of losing motivation if "Plan A" doesn't work out, or goes out of style.

I think a lot of people here (including and maybe especially, the ones who are making good money with their machines) are well into the alphabet. I certainly am.

Dave

Zac Altman
04-19-2008, 10:29 AM
Here's my thing, I do have the money to buy the machine. Ideally I would make the money back in the first 7 months, but 12 months is ok as well.

I just think that iPods and engraving go so well with each other. iPods are all the same, engraving gives the opportunity to make it different.

Here's another part of my idea which I havent really talked about yet, but some of you have touched on. I would have a catalog of standard images, you know the ones that you can find on the web and only pay $1 or $2 for. Yes they are great quality and some of them are amazing, but anyone can get them. These are ones which can have text added on.

Then there will be the artist range. I know heaps of young very talented artists, some who do computer based art, some draw, some like painting.
But they never get recognised as much as they should be, so they end up just doing art on the side. My Idea is to partner with some of these artists. Make it sort of like a limited edition thing. Maybe only 20 of a certain artwork can be engraved, stuff like that. Just to make it more...unique. It will be like having a great piece of art on the back of your electronic. These would cost slightly more, with the slightly more going to the artist.

I also had the idea of engraving the art on a thin piece of wood or acrylic (as the test piece) which the customer would be able to keep. Just to make it seem extra special to get it engraved from the artists range.

So yes, my idea was to have the catalog with certain images. This way i would have the corel files all ready for the different versions of iPod, just add the text and go. Then you would have the artist range which would be full sized and signed by the artist (in engraving). You wouldnt be able to add text for this option.

I still have to work on the pricing, but i think it would go along the lines of this:
Standard Small Graphic: $20
Standard Large Graphic: $25
Just Text: $20
Text along with a graphic: add $10 to the above price
Artists Range: $40-$50 ($5-10 would go to the artist)
iPod Shuffle: everything $20 (only graphics, maybe text - still have to think and test it out)
Custom Graphic: $25 + $15 setup fee + $80/h if the image needs to be modified to work.

Still have to think about the Laptop pricing.

Basically I want to advertise it as a piece of art as well as the personalisation thing. I know some kids wont care, but if there is some art that really appeals to the younger audience.

I have also thought about the granite, wood and acrylic ideas.
Granite:
People can get images engraved on it for (as you said) $50-$100.
Wood:
Same as above, except for slightly cheaper, maybe $40-$80
*All depends on size*
I am still thinking about what I can do with the above materials. Do you guys get your orders then get your materials (such as business card holders), then engrave? I am still a little confused as to how you do it.

I am still wondering what some of you do, you say you get bulk order, but of what? You talked about getting pictures engraved, but that seems like its a customised piece of work. What sort of promotional items do you do?

Anthony Scira
04-19-2008, 11:02 AM
You been shaking kids down for their lunch money ? Thats a lot of money for anyone still in high school to have !

But I say go for it. Paid off in a year on iPods alone might be pretty tough.

It would be hard for you to do but buying it on credit was the way I did it that way you have a small monthly payment. And you can keep your cash on hand for other operating expenses.

Since I am just starting out and working from home its not that hard to do 400 bucks in the month to cover my payment. All though I think a busy storefront would be ideal. Just too afraid to make that kind of commitment.

Good luck !

Michael Bareno
04-19-2008, 11:03 AM
So you engrave acrylic, wood and marble for people, right? What do they use it for? Signage,, marketing items, name tags. What about restaurants? Their cups? Do you think there would be interest in that?


Yes we are doing most of our work in wood, acrylic, engraveable plastic (Rowmark) for name signs and hotel roomnumbers. Also, since I know many sport clubs here, we are doing some plaques/trophies/cups.

Right now, we are really focusing on the hotel room numbers and signage, since we get orders for 100-200 signs, we can markup the material significantly (5x cost) and charge for engraving time (Afl.2/min - that's Aruban Florins, which is about $1.15).



I have also thought about the granite, wood and acrylic ideas.
Granite:
People can get images engraved on it for (as you said) $50-$100.
Wood:
Same as above, except for slightly cheaper, maybe $40-$80


Keep in mind that wood usually engraves slower than acrylic, so if you will be charging using a per minute rate, it is usually comes out cheaper to engrave in acrylic. Of course, if you supply the material, then obviously acrylic is more expensive.

Gary and Jessica Houghton
04-19-2008, 2:18 PM
Zac,
We advertise on our front doors/windows that we do "gadget tattoos". You'd be surprised how many people walk in holding up their shirt sleeve asking if we do tattoos.
We started our business with the intent to do mainly gadget tattoos (Cell phones, laptops, mp3 players, etc). We have expanded to a retail gift shop. We have engraved a few ipods and different types of cell phones as well as laptops.
We tell the customer that we only engrave on the battery cover of the cell phone, because you can replace it when you get tired of the image. Face it, kids change their style almost as much as they change their underwear. We also have engraved some laptops. Everything we have done has been clipart type art and text. We have noticed each laptop etches different. We charge $69.99USD to start. This includes text and a small graphic.
We had the same idea to engrave mainly gadgets. We engraved some for free and told the people to show everyone they knew and we would sit back and watch the business come in. It didn't work like that. We have been in business for almost a year and are still trying to find our niche.
We listened to our family and took their ideas and incorporated them into our business. Now, one of our biggest sellers is photos in marble. We buy the marble plaques and sell them to the customer with their image and/or text.
Someone mentioned you should focus more on tourist type gifts. I think it a great idea. Don't get discouraged with your original plan, though. Just expand on it.

Good Luck!

Luke Phillips
04-19-2008, 3:42 PM
Zac - there are lots of ways you can be creative with a laser, have fun, make some money, and not feel that you've become just another engraving shop. An example - gun cleaning kits for gun clubs - you can buy wholesale for less than $20 (US), engrave the gun club logo, and sell to their members for $60. Sydney has 38 gun clubs alone! Gardening clubs - plant markers - cheap and really sell fast. Golf clubs - lasered tees. Leather shops - lasered leather goods. Motorcycle clubs - lasered bike parts and such. Wineries - etched wine bottles (get a rotary attachment), Paintball guns - tricky but profitable. Bottom line - lots of opportunities.

"You will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do, than by the things you did. So cast off the bow line, sail away from safe harbor, and catch the wind in your sails" - Mark Twain

Zac Altman
04-20-2008, 1:55 AM
All taken in, I will think about it over the next week and think of products that I can create and sell.

So how do you run your business? Like, do you use a system to keep track of your orders and give receipts? What do you use to manage your business?

Craig Hogarth
04-20-2008, 2:06 AM
I run things pretty simple. All orders on a standard order form, handwritten receipts, tracking on MS excel. I've tried things a little more complex, such as different order forms for different type jobs, but I always go back to the simple approach.

But there's more to that when running a business. In the US, we have entities such as SBA and SCORE which will help you when setting up a business. I don't know what you have available there and you may want to do some research on resources available. Also, your local community college or university may offer workshops that you can take for business education.

I did a quick search on google. It looks like http://www.business.gov.au is the Australian equivalent of the US SBA. They also offer workshops for people looking to go start a business.

Luke Phillips
04-20-2008, 2:13 AM
Zac - yes! managing your business is critical to long term success. Without a plan to follow (and modify as needed) you'll be constantly playing catchup. If you do not have any experience I would recommend taking a small business management course, or at least buying a book on the subject. An accounting program like Quickbooks is definately a plus. When you give out your business cards, get one back in return and keep a contact listing. Be very familiar with your country's tax code and record keeping requirements. Visit http://www.bni.com.au/ (http://www.bni.com.au/) for some great resources not only for startup info but also business contacts that can drive sales to your business.

Zac Altman
04-20-2008, 2:15 AM
I run things pretty simple. All orders on a standard order form, handwritten receipts, tracking on MS excel. I've tried things a little more complex, such as different order forms for different type jobs, but I always go back to the simple approach.

That's the same approach that I was thinking of taking, although I might have an online system for the online portion of the business.

Would it be possible to send me a sample of your excel spreadsheet, just so I can have a round about guide when making mine?

Im not sure whether to have a separate spread sheet for every person, for repeat business sake. OR, i would have the one sheet, but just copy their information when they want to make a new order, so like each row is a new project.

Zac Altman
04-20-2008, 4:07 AM
This is like a sudden realisation, I considered it, but I just realised how good it could be. I know some of you have been saying it, and thanks!

"Customised" Cases

I have been in contact with people from Asia over the past year or so, so I know a fair few places where I can get really cheap iPod Cases. I had originally intended to sell cheap iPod cases and accessories in the shop, but now this seems even better. I can order lots of the hard cases of the various different iPod types, and engrave them for people if they do not wish to engrave their actual iPods.

I'm not sure as to whether I should go all one colour (like black) or get multiple colours. Multiple Styles? As is the question with most shops, you never know what people want until you're already a week or more in.

Im thinking just simple hard cases, in a few colours. So just one type of case per iPod type. Also, since these are cheap, I can test out various designs and get lots of practice.

Thanks to everyone who suggested this, i feel guilt kinda dismissing it before. Anywho, this would mean i would need a different shop location, more of a storefront instead of a 1st floor type. Which means, more expensive...

EDIT:
Just wanted to get this out of my head and recorded somewhere before I go out and forget.

Rodne Gold
04-20-2008, 7:01 AM
Here's the hard truth , do Ipods or Ipod cases only and you doomed to failure. ESPECIALLY if you have
to rent a storefront!!!!!
Now you enthusiastic ,here's another plan.
Start a "KoolDude" shop , where you use your laser and stock annd do various "Kool" things.
1) Ipod/ipod case engraving
2) Anodised aluminium dog tags
3) Customised shot glasses and beer mugs
4) A range of funky keytags
5) "rude" or rique badges
6) Lasering pics or sayings on jeans pockets or denim jackets (kiss my...butt) Pics of ppls GF's/BF,s etc
7) "awards" like Best bullduster/boyfriend/gfriend/mom/dad
8) Engraved fleecy tops and other apparel - the laser engraves a lot of stuff.
9) customised waterproof "beach pouches"
10) Cool funky earrings you can make with your laser and perspex , necklaces etc , some really cool funky types and colours of pex and other materials, you can make a ton of jewellery items with some beads , wire ,m catches and lasered stuff
11) A range of engraveable cheap leathermen and stainless steel small keychain tools for guys.
12) Cheap sunglasses , laser an image on the lens
13) Caps with lasered messages on the peak or something lasered and die cut and put on the hat itself.
14) Laser made cell phone and bag charms (sorta like tiny key rings)
15) His and hers broken heart pendants , a 1/2 heart on a thong sold in matching pairs , laser names on em , make the hearts outa red pex.
16) pex Ipod stands and cell holders
17) Bars of cocolate lasered with names - can be done.
Im sure you can think of ither things teenagers or "kids" from 13-25 would want and can be personalised or made with a laser.

Zac Altman
04-20-2008, 10:58 AM
Another question, because I have expanded my business plan and therefore need a larger and more prominent shop, how much should i be paying per week for a good sized shop?

Originally I was going to go with a cheap 15sqm shop on the first floor (the one above ground level :D ) for $170 per week.

What (round about) do you guys pay or what do you suggest i be paying? (I was thinking $300-$450)

What size shop should I be getting? (I was thinking about 30-50sqm)

And Rodne, there are some great ideas there. Chocolate...really?

Scott Shepherd
04-20-2008, 12:27 PM
Zac, I think your enthusiasm is great! Having said that, I think you need to step back and do a little more planning and research.

This thread has been up for a couple of days and your main goal has already changed, along with the location. A good business plan changes with demand, but it also starts with a rock solid foundation. Take some time, and keep asking the right questions and then go from there. Signing a lease for office space will commit you to that location. My point being is that some of your decisions are very serious decisions with long term consequences and you won't be able to change some of those decisions.

I've never engraved an ipod either. I engraved 1 laptop and it was my own. The problem I have with items like that have already been mentioned. What happens when something goes wrong? Notice I said "When", not "If". There is no doubt that at some point engraving something expensive, the power will go out, or a dirty encoder strip will come into play and the item will be damaged. Before I'd do any of those items, I'd have one rock solid plan on how I plan to handle that when it does happen.

Keep on plugging away and take your time and get it all sorted out prior to making serious financial decisions that you can't undo easily, like a lease on a storefront. You've got the drive, just work out the other half of the equation and you'll be all set.

Zac Altman
04-20-2008, 12:53 PM
Just so you know, this isnt going to be happening for at least a month or 2 (I have exams coming up, so I need to concentrate more on them than on planning). That means the shop could be open in 3 months (shipping of laser takes up to 4 weeks), so I think I have plenty of planning time.

Wont be signing a lease until I have the laser. This is so I can have a few weeks to play with the laser once I have it. Also, I want 1 week to fix up the shop, such as a new paint job as well as shelves and tables, etc. It all depends on what shop I get as to what I have to do...

I am looking into a UPS. I will be using a laptop to control the laser, so the UPS will only be needed for the laser. I basically want one that will keep the laser going for at least 30 mins. I havent tested, but I think laptops would be about 20-30mins for a big complicated image on it. I would only need the UPS if I were doing laptops or iPods because as you said, with the other items, you just lose the piece of material...

dirty encoder strip? is that like a dirty piece of machinery, or when the message isnt sent properly to the machine? I assume it creates some sort of distortion or not all of the image being engraved...

Scott Shepherd
04-20-2008, 1:14 PM
Good plans are often measured in months and years, not weeks.

You are buying a piece of machinery. It will fail. Period. I believe there are some issues with using UPS systems on your laser, so make sure you check into that before you decide that's your plan. There is something to do with the way the UPS modifies the power and causes some issues with lasers. You'll need to check into that.

I've had a laser for over a year now and I still screw up things myself. If you think you can do perfect work every time 100% of the time, you're in for an education. Mistakes happen. You're dealing with electronics, mechanical parts, and humans.

A dirty encoder strip is a problem most everyone on this forum has faced if they have a machine that uses them. It's used on Epilog's, and it's the feedback device used to control the servo motor and tell it where the laser is. It controls the positioning and firing of the laser, more or less. As you burn items, the smoke will end up getting under the cover and it will get dirty. When it gets dirty, it doesn't know exactly where it's at, and you'll end up with a ruined part. It's happened to just about all of us who have had machines with encoder strips.

That's real world. It's great to have a dream, but it's not as easy as buying a laser, renting a storefront, and raking in the cash. If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it, and we'd all be rich.

George Beck
04-20-2008, 1:17 PM
Zack

Check out what these guys do. Pretty cool. http://www.deviceninesix.com/

George

Dan Hintz
04-20-2008, 1:20 PM
Also, from what i've seen, you cant break an iPod with a laser cutter because that would involve cutting through metal which laser cutters cant do, so like some others said: read, re-read, re-re-read, check, recheck (i dont quite remember it, but it was sorta along those lines)

The worst you can do is screw up the design, which can be fixed by the library and have templates for all of the iPods and for the common laptops.
This is the destruction I'm talking about. Lasers do fail from time to time... all it would take is one design to be lasered off-center (looks terrible), another one to be messed up in the middle due to a dirty encoder strip, a power drop-out to kill a third, an odd material to kill a fourth, etc. Just a few of these accidents may require you to pay up to $400 to purchase a new unit because you screwed the unit up. Try paying for an $18k machine, $700/month rent, and add mistakes on top and you're going to dig into a hole REAL fast. Something to consider...

Larry Bratton
04-20-2008, 4:19 PM
Also, another one of my ideas to bring people in is:
I know and are "friends" with the manager and many people who work in the Next Byte store in Rushcutters Bay (formerly known as frequency). Rushcutters bay is about a 10-20min drive to Bondi Junction (where the store will be located).

Well, the idea is that I engrave a couple of their iPods and computers (for free of course) and tell them about me and give them flyers and business cards so that when people ask about it, they can refer them to me. The question is, would they be interested in this offer. What do they gain from it? I havent spoken to them yet, but I need to figure out some way that it benefits them.

Maybe that it makes them stand out, being the only computer store with engraved iPods and Laptops, bet then again it does reduce their chance of selling it, but it could also increase their chance. I dont think they sell the iPods when the new ones come out, i think only the laptops.

So you engrave acrylic, wood and marble for people, right? What do they use it for? Signage,, marketing items, name tags. What about restaurants? Their cups? Do you think there would be interest in that?

Also, anyone else from Sydney or Australia in these forums?
Zac:
I invested over $25k in my machine, but I already had a good customer base for making signage, which I do basically with a CNC router. I also have a plotter for cutting vinyl, a rotary engraver and a wide printer.The laser has actually allowed me to do some things more efficently than prior. However, I know, that had I tried to make a business out of selling nothing but lasered items, I would be in the soup line. The laser is a great technological machine, but it should be viewed only as a tool in the overall scheme of your business. Consider adding another facet. You can purchase a plotter for example, and they sure don't cost $18K. You can now buy pretty good ones for 1K or maybe less. This tool would allow you another product without a huge investment. When someone comes in your shop, the more things you can offer, the bigger chance of making a sale. If you can make designs for your laser in Corel, you will already have most of the knowledge for the plotter.
Good luck! Sounds like you have a passion for your endeavor and that goes a long way in being successful with anything.

Zac Altman
04-20-2008, 9:20 PM
So a plotter cuts vinyl...but what do you use it for. I've looked around on the net and it just looks like signage...

Darren Null
04-20-2008, 10:12 PM
Signage, car and other custom graphics, masks for sandblasting, painting and etching.

David Fairfield
04-21-2008, 8:03 AM
Hmm, the tone feels a bit discouraging but I really hope Zac will go ahead with his vision and report back on how he does. Sometimes the greater risk is not trying.

From my own experience, I can say I also got the warnings, and some were accurate. I followed through with my original idea and it evolved into something else. Or as Edison said, I didn't fail, I just found a lot of ways that dont work. ;) Lasering has a lot of potential as long as you're enthusiastic and creative.

I figured, the most I risked is the cost differential between the new laser I bought, and the price of a used laser should I be forced to sell it. Not that much really. The biggest investment is time.

Wish you good luck, Zac, stay in touch!

Dave

Zac Altman
04-21-2008, 8:52 AM
I have gone back to my original plan. All your ideas were great, but it was just expanding into something that I wouldn't be able to control on my own.

I went from a small shop with a single laser, doing just electronics to having a larger shop with a laser and a vinyl cutter, doing electronics as well as woods, marbles, signs, etc. It was just becoming too big for someone my age.

I have decided to go back to one of my original plans, but slightly modified.

1. I would have my online system, which I havent talked about yet, where people can customise their iPod/Laptop with an image and/or text. They pay for it there. They are given an order code.
2. they would go to a collection point (Next Byte) where the salesperson would take their code, put it in on the website. Confirm the design and text and mark it as dropped off (takes 1 min max to type in the code, press confirm as dropped off and type in the shop code/password - makes it so random people cant just mark it as dropped off)
3. I can pick it up from the next byte store
4. I engrave it
5. I bring it back the next day
6. The person picks it up

Turn around time: 1-3 days

This makes it super easy for everyone:
Salesperson only has to spend 1 min, and in that time can get the customer to confirm the design. they just put it in a box with the code taped to it
Customer can chose the design from home, pay at home and just drop it off at the store.
I just pick it up, engrave, drop it off.

Also, next byte will get a cut of the money (like $5 for an iPod and $15 for a Laptop - still to be confirmed)

*If they want a custom image, they have to contact me*

I think this is best to start off, firstly to measure the market and also so i dont have to spend money on a shop. If this doesn work out, I can then think about expanding to a shop that does other items

Let me know what you think of this idea!!

Pete Simmons
04-21-2008, 8:58 AM
I would not leave my laptop with anyone for a few days.

I would rather watch you engrave it while I wait.

That way I never lose control of it.

Zac Altman
04-21-2008, 9:02 AM
I would not leave my laptop with anyone for a few days.

I would rather watch you engrave it while I wait.

That way I never lose control of it.

But when you think about it, you are leaving it at an apple store... Maybe I could bring it in on weekends, so if people want to see it being engraved, they just get it engraved on weekends, but that involves me bringing it in and out every weekend.

But, since it is open till 5pm every day, I could just leave it there and just come in after school and just engrave everything in that 1-1.5 hours.

EDIT:
Can you engrave silicone, like silicone cases for iPods...

David Fairfield
04-21-2008, 10:07 AM
True, there's always a feeling of unease leaving something full of personal information with a stranger. However, its not a deal breaker. You can prepare for that by getting insured against loss or damage (a CYA must) and add a privacy agreement to the service contract stating the computer will always remain switched off and no data will be accessed while in your possession.

Dave

Rodne Gold
04-21-2008, 10:40 AM
You have asked what we think , well sorry to rain on your parade but I am gonna be brutally honest.

I think its a harebrained scheme that has not been thought through and there has been no market research, it's not sustainable long term and it opens you up to all sorts of issues like claims for damaged units and so forth, you have to involve other businesses and possibly damage their reputation, you are way too optimistic in terms of your turnover and will end up with an expensive toy.
Apply the 2x 1/2 rule , 1/2 your expected figures and double your costs and if it STILL works then , maybe consider it.
Find some other way to invest your money , perhaps in a going concern rather than try start up something that , imho , is doomed to failure before you even start. Enthusiam is not a recipe for sucess in business and I think youu are going to take a real hard knock very early in your life , it's not a great start.
There are far easier ways to make money than your scheme , like selling gourmet sandwiches at lunch break...........

Joe Pelonio
04-21-2008, 10:57 AM
Rodney's comment touched a nerve with me, with the word sustainable. I had a laser customer that was good for $15,000 a year in revenue, but the product I was making was one that appealed to a very limited market. Once those interested had bought, which took 2-3 years, the only additional sales came from new versions and my production for them dropped by 85%.

With the kind of items Zac is considering, if he markets to people already owning the devices the same thing will happen. Once those interested have been engraved the orders will drop off to only those upgrading or whose device dies and needs replacing.

By marketing through a store selling the devices, there may always be orders coming in, but will the quantity be enough to justify it? You do need to find out how many engraveable devices are sold at that store, and somehow determine a projected percentage that would have them engraved. Even if 100% of sales at that store ask for engraving, will it be enough to cover the machine cost at the proposed pricing?

Zac Altman
04-21-2008, 11:11 AM
You have asked what we think , well sorry to rain on your parade but I am gonna be brutally honest.

I think its a harebrained scheme that has not been thought through and there has been no market research, it's not sustainable long term and it opens you up to all sorts of issues like claims for damaged units and so forth, you have to involve other businesses and possibly damage their reputation, you are way too optimistic in terms of your turnover and will end up with an expensive toy.
Apply the 2x 1/2 rule , 1/2 your expected figures and double your costs and if it STILL works then , maybe consider it.
Find some other way to invest your money , perhaps in a going concern rather than try start up something that , imho , is doomed to failure before you even start. Enthusiam is not a recipe for sucess in business and I think youu are going to take a real hard knock very early in your life , it's not a great start.
There are far easier ways to make money than your scheme , like selling gourmet sandwiches at lunch break...........

I understand what you are saying, but it seems whatever I say, you say it is going to fail. Im fine with that, its always good to have some criticism.

You see, i already make good enough money. I am a web designer in my spare time which is what i love doing. That is how I have enough for the laser. I have fun with business, its how i am. Call me what you want.

You say this will fail, but have you tried it, no because you are too scared it will fail. I will make this work, so dont think putting my idea down will stop me. Lunch breaks are for fun with friends, not for business.*I just had to get that out*

Zac Altman
04-21-2008, 11:18 AM
Rodney's comment touched a nerve with me, with the word sustainable. I had a laser customer that was good for $15,000 a year in revenue, but the product I was making was one that appealed to a very limited market. Once those interested had bought, which took 2-3 years, the only additional sales came from new versions and my production for them dropped by 85%.

With the kind of items Zac is considering, if he markets to people already owning the devices the same thing will happen. Once those interested have been engraved the orders will drop off to only those upgrading or whose device dies and needs replacing.

By marketing through a store selling the devices, there may always be orders coming in, but will the quantity be enough to justify it? You do need to find out how many engraveable devices are sold at that store, and somehow determine a projected percentage that would have them engraved. Even if 100% of sales at that store ask for engraving, will it be enough to cover the machine cost at the proposed pricing?

I work at that store... (yet another addition to your image of me) and for those who may ask, yes i do have time for friends with the addition of 15 hours of sport every week...(i may seem kinda..i dunno how to describe it, but people generally do ask those sorts of questions, so i figure i may as well answer them before they are asked)

Jim Good
04-21-2008, 11:37 AM
Rodney and Joe bring up some points you really need to consider. I don't know how well your online plans would work, also. I think the customer has to jump through too many hoops to make it happen. The other problem I see with catering to the computer store customer is that if a person comes in to buy a computer, he wants to leave with it! I can't imagine he would want to leave it for a few extra days just for the engraving. I may be wrong.

Plus, if you give the store a piece of the pie, then you really need to up the volume. You'll need to have some sort of display at the store to advertise. It needs to be where it can be seen. I wouldn't depend on the workers at the store to push your services.

If you engrave an item without any mistakes, that's great. What happens when you engrave the wrong graphic, or it is located in the wrong spot? I'm thinking the computer store won't like that, either! Will they be the one handing the computer to the customer and explaining how the engraving got hosed? You will be representing that store.

I think you could use this business opportunity as a complement to your other business endeavors. I don't think it should be a stand-alone. Too much risk engraving other people's stuff, especially as a newbie that is still learning the system. Errors will occur but it's different if you lose your own 12x24" sheet of baltic birch than someone else's new laptop!

If the computer store is willing to work with you, then think of a way to take advantage of that relationship. The engraver provides a service. Think of other ways you can provide a service to the store, and also other stores. Make them nametags, any type of signage. See if they will let you engrave the computer store's name on some thumb drives so they can give them away with a sale of a computer. Bottom line is you need to pursue many revenue streams and not just one thing unless the market is large enough to keep you going. Engraving laptops and ipods probably isn't going to be the money-maker you'd like.

Try to listen and heed the warnings from these other guys. They speak from years of experience and they know what it takes to succeed. They could just tell you how wonderful your idea is and good luck, but this group wants you to succeed and they want you to know what struggles you will encounter.

Keep asking questions and take advantage of this awesome resource.

Jim

Rodne Gold
04-21-2008, 11:50 AM
Zac , I took the time and effort to give you another plan that might just work out , with almost no cost to you to add many other value added products or services young ppl want. If you think I typed that to put you down , you are sorely mistaken , as Jim Good says , we WANT you to SUCCEED!!!!!!!!
But I suppose it doesnt make a difference what we say or suggest , the motto in my signature more or less says it all.

Zac Altman
04-21-2008, 11:58 AM
Zac , I took the time and effort to give you another plan that might just work out , with almost no cost to you to add many other value added products or services young ppl want. If you think I typed that to put you down , you are sorely mistaken , as Jim Good says , we WANT you to SUCCEED!!!!!!!!
But I suppose it doesnt make a difference what we say or suggest , the motto in my signature more or less says it all.

No, I am fine with what most of you say, but I want to try this as it is. As is said, if this doesnt work, I can still go on to try the other ideas that you had, but there is no point not trying. If it doesnt work, then I will tell you and admit that I was wrong.

I love that all of you are so supportive, giving me all of the new ideas, but right now, it would be nice if we could just keep it on the one set goal that I said a couple of posts ago. Ideas that could make that work, not about how i can expand my business or do different things.

Craig Hogarth
04-21-2008, 12:09 PM
Zac, I like the idea of the website. I myself, had planned on doing one similar that allowed people to do their own designing online. As it turns out, the least expensive competent web designer wanted $22k US to build it for me. I'm going to do it one day, but it's gonna take time.

Luke Phillips
04-21-2008, 12:17 PM
No, I am fine with what most of you say, but I want to try this as it is.

Then my friend, give it all you've got; you're the only one that can make it work! Best of luck :)

Anthony Scira
04-21-2008, 12:18 PM
No guts no glory. But the business is valid. Check out etchstar.com. They are local and they have pretty much the same business you are talking about.

Zac Altman
04-21-2008, 12:20 PM
Zac, I like the idea of the website. I myself, had planned on doing one similar that allowed people to do their own designing online. As it turns out, the least expensive competent web designer wanted $22k US to build it for me. I'm going to do it one day, but it's gonna take time.

Well I am a web designer myself, but I am not good enough to do those sorts of things, but you can always outsource the projects and get someone in India who is amazing to do it for you, or some younger web developers (web developers are different to web designers) to do it for you for fairly cheap. I talked to various people with prices ranging from $400 to $3000 for this project, so if you look around, you can find good prices. For some of my biggest jobs, i was forced to outsource because I couldnt do what they wanted and I still make a 50% profit on it, and the client had the exact website they wanted, It was a win win.

I guess the thing is, I am a web designer, which means I do the design and the HTML coding, but when it comes to php, thats their job, so I do the design and they do the background stuff, so we are working together. It might not be the same for you because some of these coders are horrible at design. Works for some, doesnt for others.

Mark Winlund
04-21-2008, 12:55 PM
Hi Zac....

I have waded through all of the posts. You have to remember that all of these guys are speaking from years of experience. I myself have over 30 years in the engraving business. It is hard for me to recall my mental state in 1975, but I am sure I was as enthusiastic as you are. Starting a business is not easy... you have to have a lot of optimism and enthusiasm (even when you don't know what you are doing!) to even do it. The advice you have been given is mostly (90%) good advice.

For most people, being successful in business is "sticking to it". I failed many times in my business career, but kept on trying and learned from my failures. If you have what it takes, you will do the same. As one of the posters said, "if it was easy, everyone would do it".

Judging from your comments, you have a good shot at it. You are at least trying to identify problems before you have them, which is a very good sign.

The comments others made about diversifying are right on target. It will be difficult to make a go of it with a laser as your only tool. The suggestion of a small vinyl cutter was a good one. It adds small signs and sandblasting to your repertoire at a very low cost. There are other processes that can be added, but none as cheap and versatile as vinyl cutting.

I have not gotten a clear idea of your financial situation other than the fact you have earned the money for the laser yourself. Do you have a cushion for the inevitable mistakes you will make? Are you going to be able to cover the rent and groceries when things slow down? (In my experience, trinket engraving, in fact most engraving dropped to nothing right after Christmas, and didn't pick up again until the middle of February. Do you have a plan B?

A number of experienced posters mentioned the commercial laser work they do. This type of work is pretty steady, and not dependent on kids with ipods. You might find it profitable to pursue this type of work at the same time. I cut rubber gaskets for a local machine shop for an example. Priced at $60/hr with a one hour minimum, it adds up fast (if they pay you).

I could go on for a long time, but I am not a very fast typist. I wish you the best of luck (and a lot of it is luck) in your new business. Perhaps someday you will be advising some young person with lots of enthusiasm and no experience. Pay it Forward!

Mark

Larry Bratton
04-21-2008, 5:07 PM
So a plotter cuts vinyl...but what do you use it for. I've looked around on the net and it just looks like signage...
Zac:
The plotter is just another arrow in your quiver. How many of those kids have cars they would like custom graphics applied to? That, in itself is a huge market. Your plotter can do this. Can't ever tell, you might even get some customers that aren't the group of students you speak of. If you have a file that can be vector cut on a laser, it can easily be used as a plotter file. You apparently have access to good location, why not use it to it's full potential.

Dee Gallo
04-21-2008, 6:35 PM
What Larry said... plus, remember that you will not be in school for long, and neither will that large group of people you intend to sell to. First bicycles, then cars, motorcycles, boats, helmets, skis and other more fun toys. They all need vinyl! You might as well cater to all. Vinyl is removable - customers will come back when their style changes, so try it on ipods too! There may come a day you don't relate to teens so much. The best advertising is word of mouth from a satisfied customer.

Larry Bratton
04-21-2008, 8:37 PM
Joe:
Your right but remember, their's a new batch of students coming in all the time. Lemme see, how about selling Ipods too?

Zac has the entrepreneur in his soul. Unfortunately, enthusiasm and passion alone won't make you rich. A good solid idea and business plan will with adequate financing.

John Barton
04-22-2008, 11:57 PM
We bought a ULS Laser and took it to a big show with 15,000+ potential customers. I stayed pretty busy engraving people's pool cues, cases, key chains, ipods, phones and so on.

I also messed up several pool cues, one was a set of cues valued at over $3000 that I had to replace.

No matter how careful you think you are there will always come a time when you hit that start button and something is wrong or goes wrong.

I was doing a guy's $400 leather case and right in the middle of a LARGE engraving the power went out. Fixed the power, got everything realigned as best I could and boom it happens again. Turns out the convention center didn't give me the power I needed and we were blowing the fuse with the sustained power on this engraving. Fixed that and it took me ANOTHER 4 hours to design and engrave a cover up graphic that the customer was satisfied - not happy - with.

Depending on doing people's high end consumer goods is a really tough and stressful way to go in my opinion. Once you are GOOD then it's a lot less stress. I think it CAN be quite lucrative.

I was making good money charging $25 a name and up to $150 for complicated graphics (ex. photographed a tattoo and photshopped it into Corel to engrave on his cue - took about an hour). Doing names on cues took me about 10 min per cue.

However something to factor into this business model is the communication time. Often I would need to deal with a customer for a while as they tried to figure out what they wanted. Finally I made a sheet with a diagram of the pool cue and told them to circle where and in what direction they wanted their name.

There will be a LOT of setup required - lots of templates to make. But once done then jobs will be cake.

Overall I like the idea you have Zac and I wish you a lot of success at it. Just remember that the laser is just a tool and it's how well you use not that you have it.