Cabinet building advice needed

[jim gossage]

i am building a new house and plan to build it as if it is the last one i will live in. i would like the kitchen to be a showpiece, and am thinking of building the kitchen cabinets myself - perhaps out of birds eye maple. i have built bookcases, cutting boards, tables, etc, but never as major a project as kitchen cabinets. anyway, can you all give me some recommendations on your favorite books, articles, and websites for this project? i may decide against it in the end, but i figured i would start with some research. thanks

[John Keeton]

Jim

I have no experience building cabinets, but have a fair amount of experience in overseeing home construction. If you want a "showplace", the design and layout is more critical than the construction in my mind. I have seen some kitchens that really standout, but the cabinets were moderate quality construction. It was all in the design. It is hard for woodworkers to accept it, but even cheaply built cabinets will last decades if they have good hardware and solidly built drawers.

I would suggest that the first step would be to take your floor plan/kitchen layout and have some custom cabinet shops give you some suggested designs and quotes. You will not be taking advantage of them, as you may well decide to go that route. You will then have an idea of the cost versus your labor, and you will have the benefit of the design ideas of those that do this on a regular basis.

I think there are several posts with pictures of some beautiful kitchens done by creekers that would be able to offer more. One that comes to mind is Craig Thompson http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=78053&highlight=kitchen&page=3

Good luck on your home, and I look forward to seeing some pics of the ongoing progress should you decide to accept your mission!!

[Larry Prince]

i am building a new house and plan to build it as if it is the last one i will live in. i would like the kitchen to be a showpiece, and am thinking of building the kitchen cabinets myself - perhaps out of birds eye maple. i have built bookcases, cutting boards, tables, etc, but never as major a project as kitchen cabinets. anyway, can you all give me some recommendations on your favorite books, articles, and websites for this project? i may decide against it in the end, but i figured i would start with some research. thanks

As part of your research get the DVD "cabinetmaking made easy" from http://www.Sommerfeldtools.com.

If you use their tongue&groove method of construction you'll find it fast and easy, and your boxes will be dead square.

I'd also suggest using pre-finished ply for the boxes. It's pricey but it will save you huge amounts of time, material and hassle since you dont have to finish the inside of the boxes.

Pocket screws are also used in this system but their use is judicious and always placed in places where they won't be seen.

The DVD is a bit heavy on Sommerfeld products but you can get them from other places, with the exception of the router bits. As far as I know there's noplace else to get bits which will cut the required offset tongues & grooves. Plus, if you do decide to buy from Sommerfeld you won't be disappointed as it's all top quality stuff.

One other recommendation I'd make is to use the Hettich Quadro IW21 drawer slides with the soft-close feature. You can get them from Custom Service Hardware http://www.cshardware.com/ and save about 1/3 on the cost over the Blum slides mentioned in the DVD.

I've been using this system for about a year and a half now and I have several tips and recommendations I can pass on to you if you decide to go with it.

It's very easy to underestimate the time and cost on a project like this. Do your planning, CAD your boxes and use a good sheet goods estimator to develop your cut diagrams. This last alone can save you an untold amount of money and hair pulling.

Usual disclaimers apply. I have no affiliation with any company mentioned except as a consumer.

[Larry Richardson]

I just finished doing my kitchen with the Sommerfeld bits (T&G/Doors). I have to agree with Larry on this one.

The time savings of resetting bit heights are worth the difference.

I used smartcut for sheet layout. big time saver .

Biggest PITA is the drawers. You have to follow the directions very closely! (I used Blum BluMotion)

I wish Marc Sommerfeld would put the basic dimensions of the cabinets in writing somewhere. For the next set of cabinets (Phase B), I am using 23 15/16 to split a sheet of ply exactly in half.

Biggest tip: when doing doors or frames WRITE what goes where. I (finally) learned that putting a R(ail) and a S(tile) and marking which side is what would have saved me about $100 in wood!

It is all worth it though. I converted a kitchen that had one wall of 12 ', with the sink, stove, and frig into 2 walls of cabinets. All told will be around $2500 for materials ( ya know, tools don't count :D ). but ymmv.

Good luck.

Larry

[Jim Becker]

I can't help you with specific references, but cabinets are actually very doable by most woodworkers. They are just boxes... ;) Granted, you have a number of choices on how to build them, but that's ok, too.

Personally, I build the boxes using pocket screws and glue. Just simple butt joints. Put the good side of the sheet stock on the inside. For "end of run" cabinets, do an overlay panel that matches your door/drawer design to finish things off. I also prefer to build a separate toe-kick area so it can be installed and leveled before the carcasses. I find that much easier to get things level. Although, I really did like the adjustable legs on some Ikea cabinets I recently used in a laundry room...those were a snap, too, and I may use that technique for something in the future.

[Chris Stolicky]

Biggest PITA is the drawers. You have to follow the directions very closely! (I used Blum BluMotion)



I agree that hardware is key. The Blum hardware is really durable, and Blumotion is really cool (and increases value).

Function is also really important.

Being a woodworker, as embarrassed as I am to admit it, and am still learning to accept it, I remodeled by kitchen last year (well, its never going to actually going to be complete :rolleyes:) with Ikea cabinets. Granted, they were the nicer one's offered. Once you get beyond the (heavy) veneer boxes, the wood doors and Blum hardware are great. But the layout is what makes people want to be there and increases the desired 'wow' factor.

Good luck in what ever you choose. Just remember, no one, other than those with an eye and appreciation for woodworking, will really ever care what the boxes are made of. Its the doors and panels that make the big difference.

[Jim Becker]

I'm also in favor of using good hardware. In the long run, it just doesn't pay to use cheaply made slides, etc. Consider this...even if your woodworking isn't perfect, folks will notice when drawers move smoothly and when drawers and doors close quietly. I made the mistake of choosing some hardware poorly on my own kitchen renovation back in 2003 and trust me, it's something that is difficult to remedy later.

As an aside, I just had my first real encounter with Blumotion recently on those aforementioned Ikea cabinets in the laundry room. It took me about, oh...just a few minutes...to walk quickly to my computer and order them for all the cherry vanities and cabinets I had built and already installed in the addition. No question, they add that extra special touch of quality. Worth the investment.

[Scott Loven]

Kreg tool has a good booklet on cabinet building with pocket screws. They also have a DVD on trim work that is excellent.
Scott

[J. Z. Guest]

Jim, I'm thinking of doing some cabinet work in my mom's home. I bought Danny Proulx's book on kitchen cabinets. This is the "modern" approach, in which he uses the most efficient material for the job. Usually, this means melamine particleboard cabinets, with solid face frames & doors, European hinges, and adjustable feet.

At first, I thought this was kind of sacreligous. But the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. Melamine is ultra durable and easy to clean. In a carcase construction, it is plenty strong. The parts you look at all the time are still beautiful solid wood.

By using adjustable feet, one avoids the hassle of shimming to get everything lined up.

By using European hinges, one has room for adjustability at time of install, to make sure everything lines up perfectly. Also the "mortises" for them are simply 35 mm holes. Plywood is stronger than melamine PB in many cases, but I think inferior in this case. Were you thinking of building the cabinet cases out of BE maple too? That would be one expensive project, and it would only be appreciated by you. Would you sit there on the floor admiring for a while every time you stoop down to get a pot? :D

I believe Jim Tolpin has a book that details more traditional cabinet construction. Maybe this is more what you're after, but at a minimum, don't discount modern hardware.

Edit: Tip from Norm is to use more drawers in place of the lower cabinets. You will thank yourself later as you don't always have to hunker down to see what is where.

[Ed Peters]

easily within reach of the average carpenter. I use some techniques, while unorthodox to some degree, create better cabinets that are more durable and easier to install.

First things first. While prefinished plywood is convenient, it is just as easy to do yourself and pocket the savings. When you bring your plywood home, give it a quick sanding on the better side (destined for the inside of your box) lean it up against the wall outside your shop and spray with clear lacquer thinned at 1 part thinner to 7 parts lacguer. This will dry pretty fast and provide a good, first seal coat

Uppers: Dado the sides and back for the shelves and bottom panel. Rabet the sides for the back and top panel. I use 3/4" material for everything, including the back. I then pre-drill through the dados prior to assembly so I don't need to layout the hole locations on the outside. Attach the shelves and bottom panel to the backs with glue and screws. Roll the assembly onto it's side, run a bead of glue on the edges and mate the side panel and screw. Do the same on the other side, drop on the top and there is an upper.

Lowers: They are the same except they get stretchers front and back rather than a top panel.

Hanging my uppers is pretty easy because I cut a 1/2" deep dado into the backs about 2" or so wide a uniform distance down from the tops. I rip 2" wide strips of 1/2" plywood and attach these to the wall from which I then have a place to hang the cabinets. All that is left to do then is fasten them to the studs.

That's a quick synopsis of my way. If you are looking for step by step, I'm sure you could get in touch with any of us on this forum to go over the details.

Ed

[John Morrison60]

Jim

Norm just had a whole series on making all the cabinets for a kitchen.
He went over design, layout, construction, installation, hardware choice, etc......
Might be a good series to get DVD to review the scale of the effort, and get some design/construction points.
I have never had the time to do cabinet construction, but I have had a fair experience with layout design, installation, and finish work on several kitchens.
I agree with John Keeton, a good design, quality materials, careful installation is more important than hand built cabinets.
Good Luck
John

[Jim Becker]

Edit: Tip from Norm is to use more drawers in place of the lower cabinets. You will thank yourself later as you don't always have to hunker down to see what is where.

I absolutely agree with this. Outside of places like under the sink, three drawer lowers are infinitely easier to use. Heavy, full-extension slides make for smooth and complete access, too. This is what I did in our kitchen and I'm so glad I did.

[Mike Davin]

I just finished my first set of kitchen cabinets for my daughter. Udo Schmit's book was my constant companion. Could not have done it without that book.

[Jeff Wright]

One of the most difficult decisions for me in planning my new kitchen is which "System" to use. I have built some prototype cabinets using Sommerfeld's offset tongue and groove set and really like the outcome. Sommerfeld adheres to the concept of first building the face frame, and then build the box to it to insure a right-sized box. His T&G joints assure a square build and perfect alignment of the box floor to the bottom rail on the face frame. You can also allow for a scribed end by reversing the bits, something that is explained in his DVD on cabinet building. I just finished building a glass door using his bit set for same and the results were excellent, especially the slot bit that made a slot to receive that rubber/plastic thingy that holds the glass in place yet allows you to remove it should the glass get broken.

Here is link to a prior post showing a completed cab using Sommerfeld's methods:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=630316#post630316

[Ray Schafer]

Ed,

You use 3/4" material for the back, and you put it in a rabbet. That makes sense. how deep do you make the rabbet? What I am getting at is this ... if the wall is not plumb, and you need to scribe the back to match the wall, do you have some extra material on the back for making that adjustment? ... or do you simply shim and cover?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I prefer frames and inset doors way far better'n Frame-less and overlay.
Insets are a tad harder to do but worth the look.
Spend some time on the Hafele website they have the world's coolest kitchen cabinet gizmos
Here: http://tinyurl.com/54fmuk


There are people who will sell you really great drawers already made up & you put your faces on 'em.
Like these guys http://tinyurl.com/5fmtfa

Get yourself a really killer rail and style set and some good panel raising cutters.

Not fer nuthin: Think about getting a good shaper and a widebelt sander. This'd be a nice time to look at a Slider too.

If you are going to go through all the effort and want the Euro hinges instead of the butt hinges get the ones that open the full 160-Degrees.

[Joe Chritz]

I had an old post with a bunch of "lessons" I have learned over the last few kitchens. A search will get some great ideas on construction and finishing.

In a nutshell. Pocket screws are rocking for cabs. I use them the assemble the face frame and screw the frame on. Finished ends are a 1/4" ply skin or for fancier an applied raised panel. Boxes are assembled with screws through the sides, no dadoes. I am thinking about using a combo or cleats for alignment, at least on the bottom.

My personal tastes only on the rest here so take it FWIW. Birdseye is nice looking but probably lost on large panels. Curly maple looks nicer in larger panels in my opinion. I really like walnut rails/stiles with curly maple panels. If you want max class, inset doors with beaded face frames are the bomb. My kitchen is my first project but when I redo it that will be how it is done.

I will be posting a drawer finishing question after this in the finish section. I still haven't found a method I like for finishing them.

Dive right in but be forewarned it is a giant project.

Joe

[David Peters]

As an aside, I just had my first real encounter with Blumotion recently on those aforementioned Ikea cabinets in the laundry room. It took me about, oh...just a few minutes...to walk quickly to my computer and order them for all the cherry vanities and cabinets I had built and already installed in the addition. No question, they add that extra special touch of quality. Worth the investment.

I used the Blum Tandem slides with my new entertainment center piece, and although they work fantastically once installed, I have some serious concerns about the hardware's durability over the long haul.

As several 'Creekers pointed out rather graciously on the thread, when you build fine furniture you want it to last for generations. After hearing everyone rave about the Blum hardware I thought it would be a suitable choice.

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I was disappointed when installing it. Many of the components are not only cheap plastic, but they seem to be inaccurately machined, and don't have confidence-inspiring stops. The fit and finish of the "joinery" leaves much to be desired, although this is mitigated by the fact that they are unseen, living underneath the drawers. Finally, the spring mechanism that provides the closing force has the thinnest springs I've ever seen outside of eyeglasses.

Again, I might be in the minority, I just don't have a lot of confidence that this hardware is going to last the "generations" we would all hope it to.

As an aside, does anyone know of a higher quality drawer slide? Or is Blum considered top-of-the-line?

[David DeCristoforo]

I have to agree. While Blum is (IMMHO) the "best of the lot" I am not too impressed with the "Tandem" line either. The cheesy plastic "fixing clips" and "Blumotion" device will probably not withstand the "test of time". I used to buy the "original" Hettich "Quadro" glides that were the pattern for most of the undermount glides currently sold. They were all steel (bearings, retainers, everything), very "heavy duty" and were attached to the drawer sides with screws, not the plastic clips. Of course, this made them awkward to install because the screws had to be run in from the bottom after the drawer was in place and it also made it difficult to remove the drawers. But the hardware was awesome. Completely silent operation and very smooth. The newer "Quadro" glides have all the same kind of plastic "bells and whistles" that the Blum stuff has. These days, we seem much more concerned with "features" than with long term viability. "Why" is a whole 'nother thing......

[Sam Shank]

I second the motion on using prefinished ply for your boxes. Great stuff. I will never go back the the unfinished.

That is a great price on slides that look identical the the Blums. I got mine for about $30 total from ahturf.com - a pretty good price, but not as good as those from csh


I'd also suggest using pre-finished ply for the boxes. It's pricey but it will save you huge amounts of time, material and hassle since you dont have to finish the inside of the boxes.

One other recommendation I'd make is to use the Hettich Quadro IW21 drawer slides with the soft-close feature. You can get them from Custom Service Hardware http://www.cshardware.com/ and save about 1/3 on the cost over the Blum slides mentioned in the DVD.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Jim, I've built several kitchens and over a dozen bathroom vanities. Not enough to consider myself an expert but a tad above the novice level. When I first got into woodworking, I bought a mountain of woodworking books and recently gave them all away on this forum. The only book I kept was Jim Tolpin's "Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets" (http://www.amazon.com/Building-Traditional-Kitchen-Cabinets-Completely/dp/1561587974/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208547249&sr=8-1) by Taunton Press. I read it (and still read it) like The Bible. He makes the seemingly daunting task of building kitchen cabinets look easy.

As for hardware, I used Blum cup hinges on my own kitchen built in 1996 and have had to replace around 1/2 a dozen. Perhaps this is just normal wear and tear but I'm not impressed. I used the slides too and they are just OK. I've since found Accuride slides and although they are pricey, I believe them to be worth every penny. Good luck.

[jim gossage]

WOW! its going to take me a month to digest and understand all this excellent advice. the creekers really stepped up to the plate to help on this one. i am comforted to hear that its not a completely stupid idea. our current kitched lowers have large slide out drawers that i really like - as recommended by others - and i will likely replicate them....though the slides stink and half have broken where the plastic anchors them to the back of the cabinets. what about the fronts? i have a 16" minimax band saw and was thinking of resawing the veneer for the cabinet faces if i can find some nicely figured wood. is that a reasonable thing to do, or should i make them from solid wood? thanks again for your recs.

[Steve Clardy]

Jim. I suggest making all of your cabinet face frames, drawer fronts and doors out of solid wood.

[Craig Thompson]

Hey Jim,

Got to love this site huh... plenty of help and insight. I have to throw my 2 pennies in too. I agree with Steve in thinking that cabinet faces should be solid lumber. Many say I am nuts for doing so, but all the kitchens I have built are with 3/4 ply boxes, backs included. Makes for a solid cabinet, and dreamy installs, no sagging, no twisting, etc. I have had good luck with the blum hardware we use. Even in the blum line, there are some that dont hold up as well as others. We use the T7550 clip top (concealed series), and the 39C (compact series), I will no longer use the 38C's.. . I have had to replace too many of them. Although the plastic is 'hoaky' on the blumotion slides, I have yet to have to replace any.

Have fun with your project.................

[fRED mCnEILL]

I think the key to a spectacular kitchen is to design it around the way you live. If you currently live in a house/apt,. etc. there will be things you like and dislike about what you have. Build on that for your new kitchen..

5 years ago we did a kitchen reno in our house where I built the cabinets,laid the hardwood floor, finished the cabinets, in other words did almost EVERYTHING.

First of all we decided to renovate the kitchen to ENHANCE the way we lived. We basically lived in the kitchen so we used that fact and built on it.For example, we found that when we had company most of the time a lot of the people would congregate around the kitchen area(small as it was) probably because they wanted to spend more time with my wife(who is a good cook) rather than me. lol. So we decided to enlarge the kitchen by knocking out a 1/2 wall between the kitchen and a small family room creating a big kitchen including a fireplace (Like a great room). The end result is that people STILL congregate around the kitchen but now it can accomdate them.

Another thing we did was LOOK at a lot of show homes, renovated homes etc. where we got a lot of good ideas. For example, we went to a Show of Renovated Homes display where we noticed the kitchen had vitually NO cabinets with shelves and doors, instead there was almost exclusively drawers. When we asked the homeowner about that she replied "honey, I'm too old to be down on my hands ands knees looking for something at the back of the cupboard". So we did the same. My wife LOVES it.

Another thing we noticed (in a magazine ) was deeper than normal countertops. Most counters are about 26 inches deep because cabinets are built that are 24 inches deep. We built 24 inch cabinets but pulled them out from the wall 6 inches and added 6 inches to the counter depth thus increasing the countertop size by 25%.

As far as using a kitchen designer, we did use one but only to go over our plans in order to ensure we weren't doing something obviously wrong. She made one suggestion and drew up our plans. YOU know better than anyone else what you want/need.

It has now been 4 years since we did this reno and my wife still comments occasionally how much she loves her kitchen. And people who see it for the first time are still wowed.

Good lick

Fred McNeill