Min. Dog Hole Clearance to LV Twin Screws?

[Doug Shepard]

I'll be drilling dog holes in my bench top tomorrow. I have the spacing along the length worked out and know that I want the holes inside the 2 Twinscrews. What's the opinion on the smallest clearance I should allow for between the screws and the dog holes? I'd like to put them as close as I can to put them closer to the bench edges. Is 1/32" too small? 1/16" ?? 1/8" ??

[Wiley Horne]

Doug,

How far inset is the screw centerline from the front edge?

Wiley

[Dewey Torres]

I am not sure what you are asking exactly but I am posting pics of the way I did mine. ( I have 4 lines of dogs holes on my bench) I don't think that the distance from the screws is critical here as this is one powerful vise that needs a minimum of 1 1/2" jaw of solid hard wood. The thing wont rack unless you make it on do so purpose. I hope this helps but if not, please rephrase the question.
Dewey

[Doug Shepard]

Doug,

How far inset is the screw centerline from the front edge?

Wiley

Wiley
2-3/4". IIRC the screws are 1-1/8" which puts the dog hole CL locations at 2-3/4 + 9/16 + 3/8 = 3-11/16" from the edge if there were zero clearance between the dog holes and screws. I was originally looking at 4" but it just looks (??) like it's too far so I was trying to figure out how close I could reasonably get to the screws.


I am not sure what you are asking exactly but I am posting pics of the way I did mine. ( I have 4 lines of dogs holes on my bench) ....

Dewey
I dont have as much room outside of the screws as your's and was going to go with just 2 rows of holes. I thought about a center row but decided rather than go the swiss cheese route, I'd make a piece of hardwood with 3/4" dowels to drop into the dog holes and span the bench instead. My bench has to double as an assembly/finishing bench and I wanted a solid middle section so screws and such didn't drop through the holes.

[michael osadchuk]

Doug.....

...about how close the the dog holes in wood vise face can be to the metal vise screws: I drilled the 3/4" diameter of dog holes only to a depth of "several" inches - enough to accommodate Lee Valley brass dogs - and used a 1/4" or 3/8" diameter drill with a long stem to drill a hole from the bottom of the 3/4" diameter hole to "complete" an exit hole to the bottom of the wood face of the vise; I use an arrowshaft/dowel inserted from the bottom of the vise face to dislodge any brass dog stuck below the top surface of vise face; my dog holes in the vise are no where near the vise screws but perhaps this idea of using a tapered diameter dog hole would let you get the dog holes closer to the vise screws without interference or compromising structural integrity......
....gratutious comment: even with your 'unorthodox' baltic ply on edge bench surface contruction, I don't see a structural problem with putting the dog holes outboard of the vice screws; the edges of my dog holes are a little less than 1 and 1/2" inches from the front edge of a more conventional laminated top of solid timbers without any issues of structural integrity or clamping force (I've recently seen photos of bench dog hole on this site or woodnet well within 3/4" of an inch from the bench edges:eek:)

.... when you drill the second row of dog holes, use a spacing jig - similar to the kind jeff wright used to get equal spacing of dog holes to the edge of his bench - to get exactly equal spacing between each set of holes on opposite sides of the bench, to allow you to use the same
jig on any pair of such dog holes; you may also want to shoot for equal spacing between holes within each row of dogholes to allow use of similar "universal" anchored jigs holding pieces between the front and rear of the bench.......

btw, I found that a 1/8" roundover router bit was enough to provide a "good looking" easing of the top surface of the dog holes

good luck

michael

[Wiley Horne]

Doug,

Michael makes a lot of great points, and Dewey is exacctly right also, in my experience.

I just double-checked my bench. The centerline of the first row of dog holes is 2" from the front edge, and if I had it to do over, I'd center 'em 1-1/2" in from the edge. Closer is better.

Please rethink why you can't get closer to the edge. I will make a WAG that you will face plane 5-10 times as many 1-3" wide boards, as 6+" wide boards. If those dog holes are 3-3/4" in from the edge, your back is not going to like leaning in over the work. Also, it is forever happening that you want the edge of the board you're working to hang over the edge of the bench a little, so you can fence off the near edge--like when ploughing or rebating or molding an edge. There's always a way, and Michael brought out a very good one--if the problem is front edge depth, you can always extend the dog hole through deep wood with a smaller bore drill, or if there are drawers directly below, you can angle drill to give the chips a place to exit at the near bottom edge of the apron. It's worth it to do it that way.

Wiley

[Chris Friesen]

Please rethink why you can't get closer to the edge. I will make a WAG that you will face plane 5-10 times as many 1-3" wide boards, as 6+" wide boards. If those dog holes are 3-3/4" in from the edge, your back is not going to like leaning in over the work.

On the other hand, with narrow stock do you really want to pinch it between the end vise and a dog?

I'd use a planing stop, possibly with battens, and just leave the stock loose. This also makes it easy to move the stock when desired.

[Wiley Horne]

Chris,

I find that first line of dog holes extremely useful, including for narrow stock. I only use enough pressure to hold the board in place, whether narrow or wide.

I also use stops on many occasions, both plain stops and often v-shaped ones to capture narrow sticks for edge jointing. So I don't think it's a case of 'you can only have one or the other'--I want the option to use stops or dogs on stock of any width. Others will of course have their own preferences.

However, if someone has already decided to have that row of dog holes, my advice remains that they will be far more useful if placed near the edge.

Wiley

[Doug Shepard]

Thanks guys for the feedback tho after checking at lunchtime and not seeing anything I went back to my oringinal plans - well sort of. Michael sort of hit the nail on the head re: my "'unorthodox' baltic ply on edge bench" that may be causing me to make some unorthodox dog hole decisions as well. I actually ended up increasing the hole offset to 5-3/8" O.C. after all this. The most unorthodox aspect is the fact that the front LH Tucker vise resides in a setback so that the rear jaw is flush with the rest of the bench. My original plan was to make the 2 dog hole rows for the Tucker not inline with the rest. The lengthwise spacing on those last 2 rows is 7-3/4" due to the Tucker but that spacing just wouldn't work out continuously down the remainder of the bench. I was either running into Noden leg hardware or coming way too close or too far to the far end (and rear twinscrew jaw). So the spacing between all the other rows is 8-1/2". So I've already got an irregular spacing on the left end in one direction and the more I looked this morning, the less I liked having both directions irregular by not having the LH end holes not in a continuous row with the rest. I had already looked at possibly putting them outside the LV screws but in addition to not lining up with the Tucker rows (due to that setback), I'm extremely bothered by the idea of putting them so close to the joint between the BB ply core and the 1-3/4" purpleheart edging. I know most of the forces would be in the opposite direction of that joint line but it still bothers me. If it were all solid wood, I'd go for it. I have to admit that I wasn't giving much consideration to Wiley's comments re: the narrow stock issue and face planing as I probably should have but I'm not sure how much it would have affected my decision. I had already sort of mentally planned on something like Chris mentioned with a full width planing stop dropped into those dog holes. The other thing that pushed me further inboard was the LV holdfasts that I bought along with the vises. I hadn't even opened them up yet but assumed they were much smaller. After cracking the box this morning, I realized how big those are and wouldn't have any problem reaching out to the front edge if I increased the offset.
So at this point, after routing/drilling for the Tucker mounting bracket this morning, I got the drilling jig built (similar to Jeff Wrights) and already started drilling the holes tho not to full depth yet. I'll have to finish them up with my store bought jig as the jig blocks wont allow me to get all the way through. I'll get a pic tomorrow after I'm done. Then the only thing left is gluing the twinscrew leather jaw liners on and hanging the Tucker. A year from now I may wish I'd put them closer to the edge, but at this point just not having to work on the top of my TS or a Workmate skidding across the floor is a HUGE improvement over what I'm currently dealing with.

[Doug Shepard]

Before
Going to wait til the finish is good and hard then scuff the gloss down some.
86815

Working down the bench with the drilling jig. The 2 middle holes are locators for the 2 rows for the Tucker.
86819


Afterwards. Also managed a faux pas. Despite checking and recheching everything numerous times I still managed to get the hole with the dowel right above the stanchion bracket for the Tucker so couldn't go all the way through.
86816


With the Tucker mounted
86818


And a few dog holes along the front for the LV Surface Clamp to hold the opposite end of longer stuff.
86817


Still to do:
Chamfer the dog holes (or maybe roundover like Michael mentioned)
Cut/glue the twinscrew leather jaw liners
Finish installing the twinscrew
A few other minor odds/ends
Then roll it outside and get some better pics in natural light. I'm still in my winter indoor "shop":D.

[michael osadchuk]

doug......
......the bench looks great; very top of the line vice choices.....

...on easing the edges of the dog holes: the high revolutions of a router and the registration of a 1/8" radius
corner round over bit against the wall of the dog hole resulted in a very smooth, uniform easing of the edges in my situation


good luck

michael

[Doug Shepard]

Thanks Michael
I was planning on doing a very slight champfer but I like the roundover idea. I know I've got a 1/16" and 1/4" roundover but will have to check if I've got a 1/8". I've already got a champfer, so will go with 1/8" roundover if I've got one - otherwise champfers.