Laminate Countertops - Can I do this?

[Matt Meiser]

Our stock 17 year old counter tops are rapidly approaching the end of their life. Its pretty hard to justify $4000 for quartz or stone on top of 17 year old cabinets--not that they need replacement, but still. I went to Lowes and they stock a laminate we really like in 4x8 sheets and can order in some other sizes. I'd like to do a 45 degree bevel edge on the front with oak showing through. I built a test of this a year or two ago and was very happy with the results.

I've done smaller counters before, but never with seams which will be required for this job. The test I built is a straight 6' counter. I've done a 10' straight counter in the IT lab at my old job too.

This project would have three sections--one is only 18" long or so which is easy to do. The next is a 10' long L-shaped piece with a 3'-ish leg. Since I don't think I can get a single sheet both long enough and wide enough through Lowes I think this will need a seam. The sink goes here. The third piece is the trickiest. It is a L shape with angled corners at the intersection of the legs. Both legs are in the 8' range. The back corner of the L is a breakfast bar. That will definitely require a seam. The current counter even has a seam. To complicate things more, I'd really like the backside to have a curve instead of its current \_/ shape, which means I'd have to glue up or steam bend the facing material. I figure I can do this in the range of $5/sqft + whatever the sink we choose costs vs $55+/sqft for quartz (including measuring, a sink, and installation, but not plumbing or tearout) My laminate number figures a 4x8 sheets of laminate and particle board or MDF only yielding 16sqft of finished counter due to excess width for trimming, etc. We have in the neighborhood of 60sqft of countertop.

For backsplash we are going to use tile. So I just need to build flat counters. Is this a DIY job?

[Mike Schmalzer]

It may be tricky but it can be done. I would recommend going to a countertop/cabinet supply shop for materials. They can usually get you laminate in longer but skinnier sizes. Plus you may end up getting a better price. Have you thought about counter top resurfacing? A friend of mine does this for a living and makes laminate tops look like granite for a whole lot less. Just something to think about.

[Wes Bischel]

Matt,
If you order through a local yard, you can do the 10' section with one piece. They have larger sizes - something like 5'x 11'. My counter is a "L" that figures to about 10'x 42". I found a Wilsonart color we liked and ordered it. Took a week to come in, but eliminated the seam. Oh, and the mini blind slat trick works really well. But I suspect you know about that one.;)

Good luck,
Wes

[Matt Meiser]

Have you thought about counter top resurfacing?

I would, but part of the problem is that the laminate is lifting off the substrate. The one I redid at work was actually a resurfacing of an old top.


Oh, and the mini blind slat trick works really well. But I suspect you know about that one.;)

I've heard that one. I ended up with a whole bucket-full of dowels too.

[Lee Schierer]

Matt I have to agree with the money issue for custom stoe countertops. If I recall correctly, Lowes had a beveled front countertop with a hardwood facing. It was a special order, but according to what I was told the wood could be custom stained to match the cabinets we were buying.

[David DeCristoforo]

The oak edge is easy. Evidently you already figured out how to do this. So, the seams.... You can buy PL in sheets up to 5' X 12' but probably not through the BORG. But you can buy it through a local "top shop" or a hardwood retailer who also carries PL. The extra cost will more than offset the fact that you will not have to seam the PL.

[Joe Chritz]

Definitely doable. Here are some things I learned in the last few counters.

Use good contact cement. The spray stuff contractors use is best but I haven't ponied up for a system yet. I use the solvent base stuff from the borg. It works well when put on with a foam roller. Do the edges twice.

Get all the wood on the edges and scrape or trim flush then rough with 80grit. If you only have the 45 showing like my pic then you can brad nail the oak on if you have to with plenty of glue.

Try by all means to be able to slide the counter out away from the wall. This allows you to flush trim the back and use a straight cutting jig to line up the laminate. I trimmed on both sides of the sink for seams using a piece of hardboard with a fence glued on and a 3/8 straight bit. Lower the bit until it almost scratches the substrate. When you cut through the laminate it leaves a nearly perfect edge. By having it wide you can concentrate on getting that edge within 3/8 seam location and not worry about the others as much.

Dry fit the next piece, you only get one shot with contact cement. On my pic the sink piece was precut close then cemented down then the leg by the fridge was done.

PL is available in up at least 4x12 sheets, maybe more. It is worth the extra to use 1 piece wherever possible. The extra makes nice for shop tables and the like.

Any specific questions ask away.

Joe

Yes the maid is in school currently and it is a little rough. :rolleyes:

[Steve Kohn]

I believe that most of the contact cements typically used in laminating are heat sensitive. Could Matt remove the old laminate by heating the top in sections with a heat gun and then pulling off the old laminate?

[Jim O'Dell]

I think the sheets of laminate come in sizes up to 5 x 12. If in a larger city, there should be a distributor. Look at Formica and Wilsonart on line for their distributor list of addresses. The one here in Ft. Worth was happy to sell to me. Price was higher per sq ft than it was at the Borg, but I could get it without paying an outrageous handling fee. Our local place has both brands, and a hugh selection. (They also carry Freud, Amana, Porter Cable, Delta and Festool!!!! As well as drawer hardware.)
Do your best to reduce the seams. Much easier, and reduces the area where water could infiltrate to the substrate and cause problems. Good luck with your project! Jim.

[Matt Ocel]

Matt -
Everything you mentioned seems to be a DIY.

However you did loose me on the backside to have a curve.

To complicate things more, I'd really like the backside to have a curve instead of its current \_/ shape???

The largest sheets of laminate come in sheets 5' x 12'. and I would be willing to bet that big Blue or big Orange would order it in for you.
Try to stick with Wilsonart.

[Matt Meiser]

This picture probably explains it better. The red line represents very roughly how I'd like to reshape this edge when we redo the counters whichever route we take. It looks awkward here because the angle of the photo and the way I drew the line, but you get the idea.

I figured out that a 5x12 sheet would definitely allow me to do the big L with no seams. Now I think that won't be difficult. That just leaves this little L which has one seam. Luckily, its on the "dry" side of the kitchen. Mostly this side collect mail keys, phones, wallets, etc. Heck I could just do it in plywood since you can't see the counter over here half the time anyway. :rolleyes:

What do you do with seems? Do they just get butted? Is there some kind of filler applied to the seam? The current seam is very wide--maybe 1/32 of an inch with evidence that it had something in it at some point.

[Matt Ocel]

Matt -

For the radius on the back side I would start by just trying to see if a piece of oak stock would bend around the radius, if it doesn', try planeing it down a little and check it. If your getting close, clamp it in a arc overnight before you apply it. (me personally, i know i would break a few).

When it comes to seams there is a laminate seam router that double cuts each piece at the same time for a perfect fit.
If your feeling lucky, you could try doing this with your laminate trimmer, by setting the 2 pieces about a 1/16" apart and running the trimmer between the 2. Sometimes the factory edges are true enough to but together also. A good fabricator will use no seam filler!!

Make sure your substrate seams do not align with laminate seams.

Make sure you nail your oak edge low enough, so when you route your bevel edge you don't nick any nail heads.

Plenty of ventilation - NO open flames, watch out for any apliance with a pilot light when glueing up!!!!

Make sure temp is over 60.

Good luck!

[Stephen Edwards]

Dry fit the next piece, you only get one shot with contact cement. On my pic the sink piece was precut close then cemented down then the leg by the fridge was done.

Yes the maid is in school currently and it is a little rough. :rolleyes:


When I first learned to do counter tops (back in the 1800s!) an old timer taught me the trick of using newspaper between the counter top and the PL. After the contact see-ment has dried on both surfaces you lay newspaper on the counter top, then put the PL (precut oversized ) on top of that. Shift the PL as needed to make sure that you have your overhang all the way around. Have a helper or a heavy weight to hold down one end and slowly lift the other end. Pull out the paper and put the PL down on the counter top. Then, start from the other end, lift the PL, remove the remaining paper and put down the top. If you're careful, you'll always end up with the desired overhang for trimming with the router. Takes the guess work and the math out of it.

[Paul Girouard]

The 1800 :eek: P.Lam :confused: .

There is so much bad advise on this thread it's unbelievable .

Given what you said and the situations you have it would be my opinion that this is beyond your abilities. Honest!

A buddy of mine , newly retired USN guy who's fairly handy did his recently I gave him so face to face advise , when I saw him at church the next week he said it was disaster they'd be getting solid surface put in soon. So he's out the $$'s for the P.Lam and will be spending more on SS soon.

Sorry to chime in , but advise of "going for it " cheer leading , etc is not going to help you out.

Then again you might pull it off , but I doubt it.

Hire this one out is my vote.

[Matt Ocel]

The 1800 :eek: P.Lam :confused: .

There is so much bad advise on this thread it's unbelievable .

Given what you said and the situations you have it would be my opinion that this is beyond your abilities. Honest!

A buddy of mine , newly retired USN guy who's fairly handy did his recently I gave him so face to face advise , when I saw him at church the next week he said it was disaster they'd be getting solid surface put in soon. So he's out the $$'s for the P.Lam and will be spending more on SS soon.

Sorry to chime in , but advise of "going for it " cheer leading , etc is not going to help you out.

Then again you might pull it off , but I doubt it.

Hire this one out is my vote.


Paul -

A true creeker needn't be afraid to step out of the comfort zone.

Laminate is cheap.

So - Yea - rah - rah!

I say go for it Matt M.

[fRED mCnEILL]

There is so much bad advise on this thread it's unbelievable .

Perhaps you could elaborate on what iadvice is bad.

I did my own laminate countertop and in reading the inof on this thread didn't see anything that it "bad".I always figure that if I have access to the tools the "pros" use I can do whatever they do. And generally I can do it better, although usually slower.

Fred Mc.

[Paul Girouard]

There is so much bad advise on this thread it's unbelievable .

Perhaps you could elaborate on what iadvice is bad.

I did my own laminate countertop and in reading the inof on this thread didn't see anything that it "bad".I always figure that if I have access to the tools the "pros" use I can do whatever they do. And generally I can do it better, although usually slower.

Fred Mc.

I could but it would take to long. In fact I had started a post and it took me so long the forum had "timed out " on me so when I tried to post it , it ( the post) went poof:mad: There's a more to working P.Lam than tools , BUT the right ones are essential. Matt maybe could pull it off , I've seen photo of his work and read a lot of his posts . BUT there is , like I said more to P.Lam than most here think there is. The large pieces are hard to handle alone , and worst to handle with two people who don't know what they are doing . It's easy to tear , especially when it is machined to "rough" size any "L" type shape exacerbates that tendency.

The forum may time out on me on this post :rolleyes: So no I don't , won't go into all the reasons / bad advice.

It is just my opinion that the job he described is Beyond his skill level.

But hey P.Lam is cheap like the other Matt said , I guess. I see people whine about a $30.00 piece of wood in some threads , so cheap is a relative term.

What the heck Matt it's your dime and your time , go for it, report back with photo's , close up's of key areas when your done , Then we'll see who was right. :)

[Paul Girouard]

Well if Matt goes for it here's some tips .

P.Lam does come in sizes from 3'x 8' ( some places may sell smaller pieces ) up tp 5'x12'.

They do sell seam fill , it's never the exact color match and dries very brittle so, if at all possible , avoid using it.

I generally rip my lam to rough size , 1" over in length and width. Self edge gets ripped 1/4" wider than the finish size.

Here the lam cutting jig , basically it holds the P.Lam up preventing it from slipping under the fence.

The roofing nail traps it against the fence bar , keep it snug to the fence.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17008.jpg

I have had people go nuts about cutting lam with a tablesaw , they fear the blade will get damaged , YES it does dull the blade but so what thats why guys have saw sharpening shops .:rolleyes:

I'll add more I don't want to time out the forum and lose this post like the one last week, slow typer eh :rolleyes:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17007.jpg

[Paul Girouard]

I rough cut , then fit any seams , around things , posts , walls etc . ALL dry fit , everything , first.

Of course Matt may need to replace his sub tops first , I will not do a "lay over" where you lay new lam over old , not worth the risk , so do it I won't.

High density particle board is the best substrate for P.lam, NO VOIDS , nice a flat etc , NOT COMMON underlayment , but high density PB.

Attach the self edge with glue and 1/4" crown staple first the sand "flush" with a belt sander, I use my belt sander more doing P.Lam than any other thing.

Aways sand so the sander is "pulling in " on the lam , IF you use it to finish up "flush up" the S/E , I think I have a photo of that step , as that sentence is confusing ,

Crap no I didn't take that photo , after you rout off the S/E I run the belt sander over that "rough" edge , faster than filing all that surface.

I use a bullet bit, and prefer a offset based "lam router" this ones a DeWalt, PC usd to make a nice one as well . Small compact , the offset base lets you get "tighter" into corner , at walls , etc any where a bigger router won't go or get to.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17009.jpg

The vaseline is used any where your going to run the bit against P.Lam , I just brush some on , you do need to keep the router moving , not fast but steady as you rout off the lam. Some guys use WD 40 , I've never tried that , I don't think you could control the spray very well and it would get every where except where you wanted it.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17016-2.jpg

Notice on this top I stuck the long "front" piece first , then the sides , which where precut on the chopsaw for a nice edge , stick the first piece , then bring up and kiss the side to that back edge of the other. Always think about which piece should go on first to "hide" the joist best.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17015.jpg

The old blinds I use ,

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17013-1.jpg

Notice they metal ( not the newer plastic kind ) and the nice cup they have , they do need to be clean , no old glue , no dust , etc .

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17012.jpg

[Darren Salyer]

That this is beyond a DIYers ability, as long as he has access to roofing nails.:)

Seriously, 20+ years as a professional woodworker, and a fair number of high pressure laminate counters, my main piece of advice is cleanliness.. Keep all the dirt and dust away from your contact cement on the surfaces as any foreign matter will show as a bump on the surface, and will wear quickly. HPL is not a voodoo material. As with anything, preparation is key.
Darren

[Paul Girouard]

Do you know how to make a Venetian blind?


Poke him in the eye with a sharp stick :D

On files I like a round nosed one / type best , one tip is to wrap a couple of wraps of tape around the nose , sort of like training wheels , that way you "shouldn't" bugger the surface of the lam.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17012.jpg

Spread the glue I use a cut off 3" roller pad , a disposable brush , etc.

Here's that "rough edge " that I'll be belt sanding , you can file it as well . which I do I go over it first with the belt sander , then file it nice and flush and clean.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17017.jpg

The "X" tells me it's the end I cut on the chopsaw so I know it's the good one . Notice I don't rout the very ends , the router can bugger those to easily , so I rout to them , then nip them off with the front end nippers , they come in handy for other things as well. I carry this set in my nail bags , pulling finish nails , nipping stuff, very handy tool , IMO.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17018.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17019-2.jpg

You can see they are well used eh !

This is the "look" of glue ready to stick , a couple of spots could be drier , but the main area and the edges ( which I double coat always ) are the "right" dryness / look. Tacky to the touch , not wet , NOT dried out either.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17020.jpg

Spread the blinds about 6" apart , then you can lay the P.Lam on them , adjust the lam where you want it , I generally stick some where about the middle the press the lam outward from there,

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17021-1.jpg

On a simple straight top like this I'd just set the piece without the blinds so this is sort of for "show" , but it is good to use the blinds , it's ease to get it misaligned without them , so it's a what ever your comfortable with thing .

Slip a few out while gentlely holding the lam then press it down across the sheet ,

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17022-1.jpg

Once it's stuck lift the lam and pull the blinds on one side , then the other,then rout off , use the vaseline , etc, etc.

Tilt the file , you'll see a little chaff / glue coming off that edge , it's the glue breaking over, thats the "sign " your right at the spot to gently file the rest , that little edge you can feel it thru the file , I guess , I just know by feel and eye that I'm "there".

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/sept17025.jpg

[Matt Meiser]

Thanks Paul--I'm looking forward to the rest of the series! I'm probably going to tackle this job early this summer. I realize that it could cost me $125 if I mess a piece up. But on the other hand, I can afford to mess a several up before I approach the price of having this job done. That will allow me to do it with open doors and windows in the shop. We're down to the one seam after confirming that I can get the pattern we want in 5x12. That would go away if I could convince my wife to let me take out one cabinet and replace it with a built-in computer desk. She said she doesn't want to loose the cabinet space though. To be honest, I don't even know what in that cabinet???

[Darren Salyer]

Thats why I come to the Creek. Suggest not to try something, then bend over backwards to try and describe as in depth as possible, so the OP can make an informed descision. I'm impressed.
Darren

[Paul Girouard]

Nuts eh Darren :D I missed your first line , the bold print in the head line area , I seldom look there as it generally just the thread title repeated. I never do that line , so I guess I never look it that area. You had the other post with the start of a sentence in that area I missed as well.

Matt your welcome .

On that joint what I do is dry fit every thing . I use a MDF cutoff as a straight edge and rout good true edges on both pieces , use quick clamps to hold the P.lam to the straight edge. Once you've got a good dry fit , I stick the small OR harder to get in place piece first the final fit to it . Once it stuck you can tune up the other piece , glue just a little more countertop than you need to for the first stick , so your not working over a bunch of glue .

After your "really" happy glue up the rest of the top , when I stick that last piece I place a small stack of blinds to create a hump in the lam about 4" from the joint , stick the other side ( away from the joint) then pull the stack and the hump when pressed out makes the best joint you can get.

BTW the P/Lam and sub tops should be acclimated to the house conditions for at least a few days .
That doesn't always happen and more than likely the P.Lam you have that seperated is due to just that.

It can shrink up to 3/16" in a 12' lenght , put two together and you can see why shrinkage is a issue .

Letting the material get used to the place it will live is a great idea. Before you glue it up.

[Paul Girouard]

Another tip which will be hard to describe is on the large pieces IF YOU CAN rough cut the L out as a gentle curve , if you cut P.Lam into 90 deg. inside corners THATS when it tears VERY easy. Add two people , I assume you'll hav a helper , the big sheets are not heavy but flopping a 5 X12 piece around can be a PITA , BUT as I was saying when two people move P.Lam they both have to know what the other is going to do , or sure as $hit it WILL get ripped. Thats the hard one to describe who to prevent it , smooth fluid movements , no twisting , etc or IT WILL RIP , once it's rpped buy another use the damaged stuff for smaller pieces some where else.

[Paul Girouard]

That this is beyond a DIYers ability, as long as he has access to roofing nails.:)

Seriously, 20+ years as a professional woodworker, and a fair number of high pressure laminate counters, my main piece of advice is cleanliness.. Keep all the dirt and dust away from your contact cement on the surfaces as any foreign matter will show as a bump on the surface, and will wear quickly. HPL is not a voodoo material. As with anything, preparation is key.
Darren


Good point , and that little speck is ALWAYS right across from a window , of full light store door:mad: AND Looks like MT. Baker under the lam:D

Yup keep the kids, the dog , the wife , everyone but that one helper , if you can find one who's clean , OUT of the work area! The figgin cat to , they like to walk in the glue !

[Paul Girouard]

That this is beyond a DIYers ability, as long as he has access to roofing nails.:)





See even when you quote your post you lose that first part of the sentence.

Matt's job is more involved , the shapes , the alcove , the bigger sheets , for a first timer / seldom lammer ( I know thats not a word , lammer :confused: :rolleyes: ) all present challenges he may have issues with . Not just a straight top like this "sample" for training we have here, is what I'm saying .

And , I might add , not saying very well at that:( :D

Hoy vey I should have listen to my English teacher more that my wood shop teacher eh :rolleyes:

[Matt Ocel]

Paul -

Very Nice Advice!:)

For what its worth, I use candle wax I.L.O. vaseline.

[David Cramer]

Paul makes some very good points and did a well documented photo essay on how to make tops. Everyone who makes them has a different method in this area or that area. Go from one shop to the next and each shop might do seaming a little bit different than the other. But.............some ways are right and some are wrong. Another way of saying it is you're gambling to much on an error that could cost you when it "didn't need to happen".

Laminate is cheap, but it is also very unforgiving. I won't get into all the ways to "fix errors" or I'll have to go to the hospital for BUTT SORES:D from sitting for too long. Laminate work can be both hard (involved) and easy. It depends on the job.

Things that I do a little different are as follows:

Paul has a photo where he uses tin snips and doesn't rout into the corners. Personally, I always rout into the corners by going into the slowly and then lifting the router and taking off the other remaining point. I have never once had a problem where I screwed up the corner by routing them. If I had, I would choose a different method. But, don't forget, you have to belt sand that flat along with the rest of the edge.

When cutting an L-shape, Paul said the inside of the L can tear and those words couldn't have beed spoken better. You can do as he suggested and round that inside corner, or what I do is put masking tape about 8 inches long and within a 1/2 inch of the inside corner. I put on about 6 pieces of masking tape built up, each over the other piece. After the piece is actually glued and stuck on, I peel off the masking tape, and set it aside to use on the next piece/job where it will be needed.

My 2 inch build-up goes on the bottom of the main board, which is different from Paul's photo (photo 5), but I'm not saying better. The build-up has a 1 and 1/4 inch overhang and the remaining 3/4's of an inch sits on the face frame of cabinet. I believe Paul is making a lip top in where the main board that makes up the countertop sits on the face frame and the back of the cabinet, versus using build-up.

I over size each piece of laminate about an 1 and 1/2 and don't use anything, especially in the piece that Paul is showing. I simply put a bend in the laminate when I pick it up (a small U-shape from the color side) and line up the back with marks that I've put on each end and just lay it down. I've never had a problem, not once. Then press it down and you're ready for the finishing tasks at hand.

I would use blinds if it were a large L-shaped or any other funky shapes where you need things lined up and it's not as straight forward as Paul's example. Once it sticks, it sticks. But solvents will delaminate the top if you make a mistake, but then you'll have to wait for the entire top to dry, sand it all down, and start over. I've witnessed it in shops many, many times.

Paul is right, sometimes 2 people trying to stick it down can be worse if one of them doesn't know how to hold it. That is a fact. I've had people try to help me after I have it in the air and I have to politely wave them off and kindly say, thanks anyways, but I got it.

Before sticking the piece, always check the top visually in addition to using your hand to make sure that this is nothing on it. If you have a little piece of anything and it's hard, you can lift the piece up before sticky it, put it on its side and have it fall off right onto the top itself that you are about to stick the laminate on. Then you lay down the laminate, go to press it, and you feel a little bump. How to fix it, you ask? Lay a small block of wood on top of the laminate where the bump is located and take a dead blow mallet and hit that block of wood with quick hard blasts. Even though I've never had the laminate crack, I still say a little prayer:) before I hit it. What you're doing is driving the little piece of material into the particleboard, and it works.

I use a pressure pot, meaning I spray my glue and I can stick it in 5-10 minutes, literally, with one coating of industrial strength clear contact cement. I believe the glue is now at about $70 for 5 gallons. Big shops go through it like Kool-Aid:D. But, they make so many tops in a day that you'd have to see it to believe it.

For a wood edge with a radius that can't be sanded to creat the bend, the shop I was in would cut 1/8" strips and staple and glue them on one by one until they got to 3/4" thickness. That was only for a big radius. That's where a woodshop would come into play and steam bend the wood ahead time by using a template of the actual radius. That's what I would do, but the shops I was in would have nothing to do with it. They have their way or it's the :eek:highway!

I don't use vaseline, but lami-lube instead (comes in a spray can). But hey, if you can't get lami-lube, vaseline would work fine.

Files cut in one direction. I actually don't hold the handle side. I hold the top of the file, below the countertop and rip down the edge pulling it towards me versus the way magazines often show. But it works both ways, mine is just a lot faster with the same results.

Under the color of most laminates is a white base. If you file through the color, you will expose a brilliant white color rather quickly. You can use a marker or pencil depending on the color to try to take away the white and blend it in. There's no other way except to remove the edge and start over.

The picture that Paul has with the board on the table saw is basically a quick zero clearance board. I just push a scrap board (about 10x20 inches) into the blade while its running and push my edge through. No nail is needed. If anything, the board won't go forward when you're pushing the laminate over it because you're not pushing the board but the laminate is just riding on it. The board can creep back slightly after you've ran the laminate through, but only minutely. Before cutting your next edge, push the board into the blade another 1/4" or so. That's my experience anyways.

For a do-it-yourselfer, yes the job is possible, but again, Paul is right, there is more to it if you want it to turn out nicely and a job you can be proud of.

My advice is from experience in a few different shops for a few years, not from a DIY job I did with my brother-in-law or next door neighbor. I believe you can do it Matt, but make good templates or put down the 3/4" material that you're actually using and scribe it to the walls, but not too tight, it's gotta fit in without hacking up the walls or cabinets as you lay it down.

Good luck and Paul did give some great advice.

David

[Paul Girouard]

Thanks David . I sometimes do the tape routine on the lam , and /or/ also along with the free hand arc.

On curved or raduised corner witha P.Lam S/E I do a double 3/4" sub top , and have a MDF template that I rout the radius onto first one thickness of the top , then add the second piece and rout it off so you have a 1 1/2" (most "normal" self edge / countertop thickness in this area ) Then bend your P.Lam around that .

THis glue I used on this top is crap , but when you need a quart to do one top buying 5 gals of "good" commerical glue is not a option.

I've used spray water based glue out of a glue pot , 3M brand IIRC , theres a "new" glue out now that comes in what looks like a propane tank , a 5 Gal one. It dries fast and is very good glue , TODAY!

I say TODAY as we used that type glue about 8 to 10 years ago , and it seemed fine .

A very long storey that job was atarde show booth for OR (Outdoor Research) they sell backpacking gear mostly I think . Anyway the booth was about 50 feet in lengh and had two 12'x12' "rooms" on each end , the panels cam locked together , so it could be set up and taken down.

The 80 or so sheets of P.Lam on it was a wide angle photo of the Cascade mountain range , so it was sequencial .

It was stored in Las Vegas , and the shows where mostly in Utah , so stored in the hot desert trucked over a mtn. pass ,

ALL 80 sheet feel off , came loose , the glue FAILED , we fixed it which put that cabinet shop OUT OF BUSINESS , It was TACC glue ,they screwed us over , I do NOT BUY TACC products any more .

So yes theres way more to P.Lam than meets the eye:eek:

[Dave MacArthur]

Really a great thread, I've enjoyed reading the pro-viewpoint a lot here; it's made me feel much better about paying a pro to do something I THINK I can do (but haven't tried and don't really have time for...), and been a enjoyable read--Thanks!

[Matt Meiser]

Actually this is exactly the kind of thread (the latter 1/2) that should be in the articles section. What do you say Paul (and David?)

[Dennis Peacock]

Actually this is exactly the kind of thread (the latter 1/2) that should be in the articles section. What do you say Paul (and David?)

Hey Matt.....

See if you can talk Paul into "uploading" his pics for his article so the pictures will always remain as part of the article. Currently, the pics are coming from PhotoBucket.

[Paul Girouard]

Hey Matt.....

See if you can talk Paul into "uploading" his pics for his article so the pictures will always remain as part of the article. Currently, the pics are coming from PhotoBucket.



Dennis can you point me to the link , if there is one , on how to upload to SMC forum ?

[Matt Meiser]

Paul, if you hit the "Manage Attachments" button under additional options when you post (in regular mode, by hitting the Post Reply button or the Go Advanced when you are doing a quick reply you can upload pics. There's a size limit, but I find if I resize my pictures to 800x600 they are small enough. Somewhere there is a How To on this, but I'm not sure where. I'll gladly give you a hand if you want--you've been a tremendous help to me. Just PM me.

[David DeCristoforo]

This has turned out to be a very interesting discussion. Lot's of varying points of view and some very good information. "Between the lines" though, there is an "undercurrent" that elevates it to a whole different "philosophical" level (uh oh... here he goes again....)

It has been my experience that people are capable of the most amazing accomplishments. Throughout my life, I have been consistently astonished by the abilities of the "DIYer". As a "professional", I have often been tempted to be scornful of "Harry Homeowner" and to presume that the "average Joe" could never do what I do. WRONG! I have been humbled so many times by the work of "hobbyists" and "weekend warriors" that, at this point, I just keep my hat in my hand.

Of course, I have often seen a botched job and have at times been called upon to bail a few out. But, as often as not, the job was botched not by "Harry Homeowner" but by a "pro" who was well paid to create the mess in the first place. So, let's not presume that just because someone is paid to do a job (the only thing that, by definition, really separates the "pro" from the "amateur") it is guaranteed that the result will be superior.

By the same token, it should never be presumed that the "amateur" will be incapable of producing top quality work. He or she (curse the lack of a non-gender first person pronoun!) may not get the job done as quickly or efficiently as an "experienced pro" and, obviously, one should have the necessary understanding of the task at hand and what will be required to accomplish it well. But, that's what forums like this are here for...no?

PS I used to have a guy working for me who was a superior "PL" man. And his methods were radically different than those posted by Paul which just goes to further illustrate that there are many paths that can all lead to the same place....

[scottj owen]

I build a lot of p-lam counter tops in a year, for seams I took a piece of solid birch, I jointed one edge to make it nice and straight and then glued p-lam to one edge. I clamp my 2 pieces of laminate I am going to join on this board and run a flush cut router down it. I then take a 12 inch sanding block and sand the 2 edges to be joined on the bottom at an angle. After the glue sets up I use 1/4" dowels, I leave one dowel parrallel to the joint about 6 inches away. I pull out all my dowels except for this one, this dowel forms a slight hump in the laminate, after I remove this last dowel I roll the laminate towards the joint, this gives you a super tight excellent joint every time.

One other thing I would recomment is to stay away from particle board core material when you have joints close to sinks.

Have a great one!

[Eric Larsen]

I'm way late to chime in -- but if you want granite, why not go with 18x18" granite tile and epoxy-based grout?

With a good tile saw (buy used on CL, use, then sell on CL for the same $), this is an easy job. And with really big tiles, you get the look you want without the "custom giant slab of granite" price.

It's the epoxy grout that makes the difference. Perfect for a kitchen counter.

I'm sure a lot of people are now rolling their eyes and muttering, "epoxy grout? that stuff is horrible to install!"

It was horrible a few years back, but the new stuff from American Adhesives is easy (but pricey).

[Matt Meiser]

Eric, I suggested that to my wife a while back and she says no way. No tile on the countertops of any kind.

I'm not sure what brand we used, but I used epoxy grout for some tile above our fiberglass shower. It turned out great, but yeah, that stuff was horrible to install. I had it all over me, the shower, the tools, etc. Luckily the vinegar clean up works great and once we were done I'm very happy with it. 90% of my problems were gravity though. On a flat surface it would be MUCH easier. I figure DIY granite tile would probably cost 2-3X what DIY laminate would cost.

[Eric Larsen]

Eric, I suggested that to my wife a while back and she says no way. No tile on the countertops of any kind.



Shame when SWMBO uses veto powers.

Based on your picture, jet black granite would look excellent. With a 1/16" grout line and black epoxy grout, it wouldn't even look like tile.

[Matt Meiser]

My thoughts exactly.