Help! I really did it this time.

[Bob Sanders]

Well, as some of you know... I am new to this finishing thing. I was in here a week or so ago asking about stains and finish coats, but I made a big mistake on it this weekend!

Its been about 60 degrees for a while here, but this weekend when I was planning on putting lacquer on my desk in the garage, it dipped down to about 40. Right now you are probably thinking "oh no, he didn't!", but alas... yes, I did. Unfortunately I didn't know that lacquer needs to be warm to spread out and even out on the surface, and because of this, I applied it when the desk and garage was at about 45 degrees. Needless to say, the first coat went on horrible, the second coat went on horrible, and the third coat went on horrible. By the time I got done sanding the bubbles and thick spots out, I had sanded right through the stain in 4-5 spots on the top of the desk.

Yeah, I was pretty depressed all day Saturday.

Anyway, I've collected myself, and am starting to look for solutions. The obvious answer would be to sand the entire top down again and start over... but there is one problem. Since the top is made out of cherry plywood, and has only a thin veneer top surface, I am very concerned about sanding too far and going right through the veneer effectively ruining the table top and forcing me to spend another $100 on a piece of plywood! This is not something I can do. The other problem I can see coming of this, and really sort of the same problem, is whether or not sanding down to the surface will get rid of the lacquer or not. I am worried (since I have never done this before) that If I sand it all down perfectly to the wood, and don't go through the veneer, that there will still be lacquer residue on the wood and the new coat of stain won't stick in spots.

Is this possible? Is it something to be concerned about? Basically I am looking for some optimistic advice and suggestions for how to proceed. It would actually be possible for me to just live with the finish I have now. Its really not THAT bad, but I just wanted it to be perfect, you know? Maybe I should even consider distressing it further, and saying it was on purpose! Who knows...

Anyway, thanks to those who can help, and thanks to those who just took the time to 'listen'. I have had a rough weekend! :(

[Sam Yerardi]

Bob,

I'm sorry to hear about your dilemma. First, don't do anymore sanding. Get some lacquer thinner, and start applying it to the surface with a clean rag to remove the lacquer that has been applied. I would apply it, let it set for several minutes, and wipe off. Once I got the lacquer off, I would then apply a very thin coat of de-waxed blond shellac. This is to help even out and help prevent blotching what I would do next. Since you are talking about a cherry plywood surface, it will repsond a bit differently than a solid piece of cherry as far as blotching. A lot of people are against using stains on cherry but this in my opinion is one of those times where it may just do the trick. I would use cherry stain to even out the coloring and places sanded through. Apply the stain, let it set for, say 10 minutes, and then wipe off. The timing is subjective as there is really no way to say 'it should left on for 10 minutes exactly'. You will have to experiment. Start with smaller time increments, that way you can build up to the coloring as needed. Once you get the stain/coloring to where you need it, let it thoroughly dry for at least a day or more. You can then seal it with shellac and then apply the lacquer or just apply the lacquer but I prefer the shellac route.

Others will describe other finishing schedules so there are several ways to approach this. Don't feel bad - - if I had a dollar for every time I screwed up I'd be able to afford that new bandsaw I've been wanting to get :)/

[Steve Schoene]

If you decide to start over on the top DO NOT SAND off the old finish, strip it off. Sanding is almost never a good way to remove old finish, even on solid wood. With finish just a few days or a week old it will strip off easily with chemical stripper. That will get you down to a surface that will accept stain.

How were you applying the lacquer? What kind of lacquer? Brand name, etc. I'm asking because nitrocellulose lacquer, as well as shellac, ought to be OK in low temps as long as it is dry enough not to blush. Waterborne "lacquer" isn't related in any way to traditional lacquer, and is very temperature sensitive.

After the first coat went on badly, what possessed you to keep adding coats. Dobn't answer, I've had those days too.

[Sam Yerardi]

Steve has a good point. I'm not a water guy so I didn't consider that perhaps you used a water-bourne lacquer. I just assumed NC lacquer. Assuming always gets me into trouble (ahh - there goes another dollar ;)) A chemical stripper rather than lacquer thinner might be a better option.

[Bob Sanders]

Bob,

I'm sorry to hear about your dilemma. First, don't do anymore sanding. Get some lacquer thinner, and start applying it to the surface with a clean rag to remove the lacquer that has been applied. I would apply it, let it set for several minutes, and wipe off. Once I got the lacquer off, I would then apply a very thin coat of de-waxed blond shellac. This is to help even out and help prevent blotching what I would do next. Since you are talking about a cherry plywood surface, it will repsond a bit differently than a solid piece of cherry as far as blotching. A lot of people are against using stains on cherry but this in my opinion is one of those times where it may just do the trick. I would use cherry stain to even out the coloring and places sanded through. Apply the stain, let it set for, say 10 minutes, and then wipe off. The timing is subjective as there is really no way to say 'it should left on for 10 minutes exactly'. You will have to experiment. Start with smaller time increments, that way you can build up to the coloring as needed. Once you get the stain/coloring to where you need it, let it thoroughly dry for at least a day or more. You can then seal it with shellac and then apply the lacquer or just apply the lacquer but I prefer the shellac route.

Others will describe other finishing schedules so there are several ways to approach this. Don't feel bad - - if I had a dollar for every time I screwed up I'd be able to afford that new bandsaw I've been wanting to get :)/

Thanks so much for the advice, Sam. I really like the idea of using the chemical approach as opposed to the sanding one. If I leave the lacquer thinner on the table top for 10-15 minutes, is there any risk of it doing damage to the stain below or wood below, or does it only interact with the lacquer?

If it only interacts with the lacquer, and I get all of the lacquer off, now I am left with a 90% stained top, and a few spots which have been sanded through. I kind of got lost when you got to this point. do I simply apply the stain to the spots which are bare? Or do I need to get the stain off and start staining from scratch again? If so, how? FYI, I've been using a gel based stain to avoid blotching, and it has worked VERY good. I didn't have any real blotching problems when I stained the desk the first time.

Then, from this point... with the stain on correct again, I can use a shellac to start or simply reapply the lacquer (correctly in the warmth this time) sanding between applications until I have the finish I want? Is this correct?

Thanks so much for taking the time. I am really workign above my head at the moment, but I guess there is no better way to learn! I certainly won't forget THIS lesson. :)

[Bob Sanders]

If you decide to start over on the top DO NOT SAND off the old finish, strip it off. Sanding is almost never a good way to remove old finish, even on solid wood. With finish just a few days or a week old it will strip off easily with chemical stripper. That will get you down to a surface that will accept stain.

How were you applying the lacquer? What kind of lacquer? Brand name, etc. I'm asking because nitrocellulose lacquer, as well as shellac, ought to be OK in low temps as long as it is dry enough not to blush. Waterborne "lacquer" isn't related in any way to traditional lacquer, and is very temperature sensitive.

After the first coat went on badly, what possessed you to keep adding coats. Dobn't answer, I've had those days too.


Is you 'chemical stripper' the same as the 'lacquer thinner' that Sam mentioned? What about the stain?

I was applying the lacquer by brush. It was a brand name (don't have it with me) oil-based lacquer from Menards. After the fact I looked, and the "minimum application temp" was 55 degrees. It was about 45 when I put it on... I know, stupid, stupid, stupid.... but I had no idea!

I kept going because I honestly didn't understand... I thought that If I put on a few more coats,and they were of a higher quality, that only the last coat and the sanding I did would matter. Boy was I wrong.

[Bob Sanders]

Steve has a good point. I'm not a water guy so I didn't consider that perhaps you used a water-bourne lacquer. I just assumed NC lacquer. Assuming always gets me into trouble (ahh - there goes another dollar ;)) A chemical stripper rather than lacquer thinner might be a better option.

I can verify that it indeed a oil-based lacquer. It is not water-based.

[Bob Sanders]

Also, I was also curious... not that I don't 100% completely trust you guys... but seriously just out of curiosity... why would sanding down be a bad idea? What are the potential negatives of doing this? Basically just what I said in the first post?

[Sam Yerardi]

Bob,

Sorry I didn't get back with you sooner.

I really like the idea of using the chemical approach as opposed to the sanding one. If I leave the lacquer thinner on the table top for 10-15 minutes, is there any risk of it doing damage to the stain below or wood below, or does it only interact with the lacquer?

If you use the lacquer thinner approach I would start out by applying it to a rag and just start wiping. If/when you start to see color coming off on the rag, then you can be relatively sure that you've removed the lacquer and are starting to get to the stain. If you use a stripper, then you have a different situation. You typically must wait for the stripper to do its job and it may or may not go all the way through to the stain.

If it only interacts with the lacquer, and I get all of the lacquer off, now I am left with a 90% stained top, and a few spots which have been sanded through. I kind of got lost when you got to this point. do I simply apply the stain to the spots which are bare?

That's what I would do.

Or do I need to get the stain off and start staining from scratch again?

I don't think I would try this approach as you will have to end up removing too much material to get down past the depth of the stain absorption.

FYI, I've been using a gel based stain to avoid blotching, and it has worked VERY good. I didn't have any real blotching problems when I stained the desk the first time.

Stick with this approach.

Then, from this point... with the stain on correct again, I can use a shellac to start or simply reapply the lacquer (correctly in the warmth this time) sanding between applications until I have the finish I want? Is this correct?

I would use a shellac coat if for no other reason than as a preservative for everything on down. That way, if you use lacquer next, and for whatever reason need to remove it, you have a better chance at removing only the lacquer as opposed to everything under it.

Is you 'chemical stripper' the same as the 'lacquer thinner' that Sam mentioned?

No.

What about the stain?

See answer above.

I was applying the lacquer by brush. It was a brand name (don't have it with me) oil-based lacquer from Menards. After the fact I looked, and the "minimum application temp" was 55 degrees. It was about 45 when I put it on... I know, stupid, stupid, stupid.... but I had no idea!

It could be a problem, but my guess is with other variables taken into consideration (humidity) you may not have done the wrong thing.

I kept going because I honestly didn't understand... I thought that If I put on a few more coats,and they were of a higher quality, that only the last coat and the sanding I did would matter. Boy was I wrong.

Nothing wrong with what you've done. It's how you learn. Keep in mind that if you are trying to preserve the grain, coloring, etc. then ALL of the layers on top of it before you get to the final top coat have an effect on the final sheen, etc. Think of it as adding a sheet of glass on top of a sheet of glass. If any one of the sheets is hazy, then the final result will be hazy. The final top coat is essentially limited in terms of sheen by what has been established with the layers under the top coat. If the layers under the top coat are flat or satin, a final coat of gloss will only go so far because it can only try to improve on what's under it, but will be very limited.

[Bob Sanders]

Sam, I want to thank you -sincerely - for taking the time to help me out through all of this. It really means a lot.

Quick question. I think I am definitely going to do the chemical approach if you recommend it. My only question now is whether I should go with the lacquer thinner or the chemical stripper.

Does either one affect JUST the lacquer, and not the stain? I think this might be safer for me.
Could someone layout the strengths and weaknesses of each?
FYI: Ease-of-use is probably my most important attribute.

[Sam Yerardi]

Quick question. I think I am definitely going to do the chemical approach if you recommend it. My only question now is whether I should go with the lacquer thinner or the chemical stripper.

Does either one affect JUST the lacquer, and not the stain? I think this might be safer for me.
Could someone layout the strengths and weaknesses of each?
FYI: Ease-of-use is probably my most important attribute.

Bob,

A stripper (in my mind) will be a bit more brute-force than applying the lacquer thinner with a rag. Either way (especially the stripper) will work. One difference I think might be in that with the stripper, it will be difficult to gauge how much the stripper is working until you remove it. With the lacquer thinner approach, you are approaching it a small bit at a time and can see the results as you are going forward. Ultimately, though, it may prove that the stripper is the best option. You could start with the lacquer thinner and if ther results aren't satisfactory, you can always go to the stripper. The lacquer thinner will predominately affect the lacquer, but it is a solvent so it will have some effect on the stain, but primarily what it is able to reach at the surface level is what I think you will see. I don't think I would worry so much about removing the stain, as to recover and get back to where you want to be stain-wise shouldn't be a major issue. If you do remove stain, then you will have to address the areas first that don't have stain (from the sanding), and then once that is balanced over-all, then apply to the entire surface as desired.

Hope this helps

[Bob Sanders]

Don't "hope" Sam. I can honestly tell you that he helps TONS!

Thank you, again.

[Bob Sanders]

Well, I want to thank you for your advice. I got the lacquer off of the project perfectly with the lacquer thinner... so that was good. But now I tried doing the brush-on lacquer again, and it is having some similar problems. I just can't get it to even out.

Now, I am to remove the lacquer again and am trying to narrow my choices down to a few new options to finish the desk. Please give me any advice on something that will give me a quality finish without worrying to much about it not working! I just can't handle having to remove it again.

Here are the options I have come up with so far:
1) Aerosal Lacquer: This should be the same type of stuff, but in a can form so that I can get an even spray and a surface that is actually sandable.

2) Epoxy Resin: I can get my hands on this stuff cheap, but I don't know anyone that has ever used it before. Have you? Any thoughts on it? Its supposed to be really durable! Here is the link: http://youtube.com/watch?v=3AyRHNc8yvg

[Sam Yerardi]

I'm not familiar with epoxy finishes. One thing that helps with leveling on solvent-based finishes is to add solvent (thin the mix). Thie improves leveling and flow. However, it increases cure time and dry time (I consider dry time the time it takes the surface to solidify - - it's still uncured underneath however). This increases the chances for dust, etc. I'm not much help on spraying, unfortunately.