Tear out with stile bit

[Russell Tribby]

I had some severe problems with tear out on the stiles this afternoon while making some doors. I'm using a Freud set and making two passes so that I'm not trying to hog out too much at once. However, as you can tell by the pictures I still had some major issues. Additionally, the Freud 3 1/4 HP router I'm using seems to jolt every now and then in the middle of a pass, sometimes more than once. If you look closely in the pics you can see where the cutter left an inconsistent cut because of the movement. I'm stumped on this one. I tried slowing my feed rate down and that didn't help. Did I get a bad set of bits?
The router movement is puzzling as well. It is securely fastened to a bench dog extension. I do notice that when I raise and lower the bit the movement is not smooth, it binds for a second and then jumps. I've only had the router a couple of months and wouldn't expect there to be a problem like this. Any suggestions on either of these problems would really help.

[Johnny Fischer]

My first suggestion in reference to pic #1 is double check your mounting brackets etc. Sounds as if something is not clamped properly and may be loose or misaligned. Your router should not be moving around if in a lift / table mount.
It has been my experience that in reference to pic #2 this is caused by 1 of three things. Cutting too deep in a single pass, cutting too fast or a dull bit.

[David DeCristoforo]

In addition to what Johnny said, you are cutting against the grain. If you look at the edge of your stock, you will see that the grain lines "feather" off toward the edge. If your bit is cutting "into" the "feathers", you're gonna get tear out.
86361

[Johnny Fischer]

Dave, your eye sight must be alot better than mine. I couldnt see that in the pics. But you are absolutely correct, it will do it every time.
What kind of carrots are you eating? I hope they werent glowing. lol

[Russell Tribby]

The router is securely fastened. I can't budge it when it's not running. However, it's when it's up and running that I have the problem. As far as the tear out goes, if the problem is grain direction I'm guessing that I need to be more careful in my planning.

[Billy Dodd]

What I've learned is to make the stiles and rails an 1/8" wider make the route cut off the 1/8 and reroute. Something about this second cut works. Try it you'll like it. As for the other problem, if the router is cinched down and doesn't move is the shaft on it true. I had a bosch that made bad cuts like that and I found out it had a wobble in it. Only did it sometimes but at the wrong times. Also use of a couple feather boards keeps the stile from moving.

[Thomas Bennett]

Try to waste some of the groove away with a table saw kerf cut. I sometimes have the same problem. You can't always cut with the grain! I used to have the same problem using a big Moak shaper. I tried a stock feeder. I tried climb cutting. I finally got a Logosol molding machine and it cuts perfect stile stock everytime...but at a huge price.
I hope the kerf idea helps.

[Russell Tribby]

Thanks for the ideas guys. I'll try them next time I've got to do some doors. I sent Charles the Freud rep a pm regarding the router movement. I think what's happening is that whenever I move it up or down it binds somewhat and then finally reaches the point where it breaks free from that binding and it jumps back into position. It's like the motor isn't travelling parallel up and down the shafts. I'm hoping Charles will have some ideas on how to fix this.

[Ron Bontz]

Ditto on most of what was said. I had a porter cable that would jump or move slightly vertically (the shaft), but only while running. I had to start and stop the router several times while in the lift and be almost at eye level with the table to see it. I also have used the method of routing then shaving off a little before finish routing when I have had the tear out problem going against the grain.

[Brian Ross]

making the stiles in two cuts is a bit risky in my opinion as you are taking the chance that your second cut may be the slightist bit off and you will have a sloppy fit with the tongue of the rail and a door that will eventually fail. Your router should easily make that cut in one pass.I found hold downs eliminated problems similiar to what you are having with tear out and sharp cutters are absolutely necessary. You also appear to have a router problem.
Brian

[Russell Tribby]

making the stiles in two cuts is a bit risky in my opinion as you are taking the chance that your second cut may be the slightist bit off and you will have a sloppy fit with the tongue of the rail and a door that will eventually fail. Your router should easily make that cut in one pass.I found hold downs eliminated problems similiar to what you are having with tear out and sharp cutters are absolutely necessary. You also appear to have a router problem.
Brian

Brian, I'm not sure if it was due to my router moving but the fit this time was really sploppy. I think I'll stick to the one pass method as I've done before. I didn't use feather boards this time and I'm sure that had something to due with it. By the way, I'm a long way from there now but I used to live in Ayr, Ontario.

[Russell Tribby]

Ditto on most of what was said. I had a porter cable that would jump or move slightly vertically (the shaft), but only while running. I had to start and stop the router several times while in the lift and be almost at eye level with the table to see it. I also have used the method of routing then shaving off a little before finish routing when I have had the tear out problem going against the grain.

Ron, what did you do about the problem you had with your router? I've sent an email to Charles, the Freud rep, hoping that I can get this taken care of or at least get some answers. I don't even want to use the router because with the movement it's essentially useless. It won't provide a stable, even cut at this point. I have another router table set up so I'll be using that in the meantime.

[glenn bradley]

I agree with the grain direction problem of tearout and i need to visit David's eye-doc. I couldn't see the grain in the pics either but I now the effect of fighting grain direction, DAMHIKT.

The router jump is definitly not right. Are you locking the motor down once you have your height set? If so, this is a service issue. Keep us posted.

[Russell Tribby]

I agree with the grain direction problem of tearout and i need to visit David's eye-doc. I couldn't see the grain in the pics either but I now the effect of fighting grain direction, DAMHIKT.

The router jump is definitly not right. Are you locking the motor down once you have your height set? If so, this is a service issue. Keep us posted.

The router is locked down. It is a plunge base and I've made sure that the locking lever is depressed. Charles McCracken suggested I call Freud to see if I can get this resolved. Like I mentioned previously, the thing is essentially useless right now since I can't trust it to make an accurate cut. I'll let you guys know how this plays out with Freud.

[Lee Schierer]

I agree with David on the cause of the tear out problem. As he mentioned you can reduce the problem by making a light first pass. You can eliminate it completely by climb cutting the pieces that have the reversed grain. When climb cutting make sure you have a good grip on the pieces as they will tend to self feed. Make only the first light pass in a climb cut. Make the final pass(es) with a regular cut. You won't need to climb cut all pieces just those with reversed grain on the edge you plan to cut.

By learning to read the grain before making cuts you will avoid tear out both with your router and with a jointer or planer.

I have a Freud router also and it does need to be locked down when cutting. The plunge mechanism has just enough play in it that the depth knob doesn't always hold it true to the axis of the plunge. The slides bind slightly and then the vibration will cause the binding to relase and change the depth slightly. Lubricating the slides seems to help reduce the binding. My guess is that the jumps may be caused by the chunks of wood being torn out being jammed between the cutter and parts of the router housing or table. With mine I find that higher rpm and a slower feed rate seems to lessen tear out on some bits.

[Russell Tribby]

I agree with David on the cause of the tear out problem. As he mentioned you can reduce the problem by making a light first pass. You can eliminate it completely by climb cutting the pieces that have the reversed grain. When climb cutting make sure you have a good grip on the pieces as they will tend to self feed. Make only the first light pass in a climb cut. Make the final pass(es) with a regular cut. You won't need to climb cut all pieces just those with reversed grain on the edge you plan to cut.

By learning to read the grain before making cuts you will avoid tear out both with your router and with a jointer or planer.

I have a Freud router also and it does need to be locked down when cutting. The plunge mechanism has just enough play in it that the depth knob doesn't always hold it true to the axis of the plunge. The slides bind slightly and then the vibration will cause the binding to relase and change the depth slightly. Lubricating the slides seems to help reduce the binding. My guess is that the jumps may be caused by the chunks of wood being torn out being jammed between the cutter and parts of the router housing or table. With mine I find that higher rpm and a slower feed rate seems to lessen tear out on some bits.

Lee, I thought about the higher rpms when I was doing the cuts but I didn't do it....next time I guess. I did slow the feed rate but that didn't do anything. Did you solve your problem with the router by lubricating the slides? If so what did you use and have you had to repeat that process? I talked to Freud today and they suggested that I remove the router from the table and try the plunge action putting different pressure on each side.

[glenn bradley]

The router is locked down. It is a plunge base and I've made sure that the locking lever is depressed. Charles McCracken suggested I call Freud to see if I can get this resolved. Like I mentioned previously, the thing is essentially useless right now since I can't trust it to make an accurate cut. I'll let you guys know how this plays out with Freud.

It may not seem like it but this is a good thing. The router isn't right and needs attention. This probably means your cutters and technique are OK. I just got my DP back from some warranty work. It was a pain but now that I have it back and working well, all is forgiven.

[Lee Schierer]

Did you solve your problem with the router by lubricating the slides? If so what did you use and have you had to repeat that process?

I used a light synthetic machine oil. I repeat this when ever I need to plunge or adjust and notice the binding.

[QUOTE=I talked to Freud today and they suggested that I remove the router from the table and try the plunge action putting different pressure on each side. [/QUOTE] Yep, what Freud suggested will show the side play in their tube and bushings. The fit between the slide bushings and the tubes is not extremely close. The result is the router will rock from side to side on the posts. The lock is only on one post, so it helps snug things up but doesn't really fix the problem. Where I noticed the side to side effect was plunge cutting a 3/4" square hole with a 3/8 dia up cut bit. Every time I went a bit deeper using the depth stop turret, I noticed an offset on the side walls of the hole. I also noticed that with the router table mounted that when I tried to change the depth of cut (raise the bit higher above the table) using the depth adjustment knob the router would bind on the posts and then snap or jump when I turned the knob a bit more.

[Russell Tribby]

I used a light synthetic machine oil. I repeat this when ever I need to plunge or adjust and notice the binding.

Yep, what Freud suggested will show the side play in their tube and bushings. The fit between the slide bushings and the tubes is not extremely close. The result is the router will rock from side to side on the posts. The lock is only on one post, so it helps snug things up but doesn't really fix the problem. Where I noticed the side to side effect was plunge cutting a 3/4" square hole with a 3/8 dia up cut bit. Every time I went a bit deeper using the depth stop turret, I noticed an offset on the side walls of the hole. I also noticed that with the router table mounted that when I tried to change the depth of cut (raise the bit higher above the table) using the depth adjustment knob the router would bind on the posts and then snap or jump when I turned the knob a bit more.

Lee, the problem you describe with the router in the table is exactly what I have experienced. I took it out tonight and it is certainly alot more difficult to exercise the plunge action on the side that houses the depth adjustment knob. I'm going to give freud another call tomorrow to see where I need to send it.

[David DeCristoforo]

Lee has given you some good advice except for one small thing that I would like to "expound upon". Please do not attempt to "climb cut" without a feeder. It's just not safe. We all want to see you succeed in your woodworking endeavors but we (I hope I can speak for everyone on this one point) don't want to see you posting one of those "bloody body part" pictures. I should mention that "climb cutting" with a hand held router is completely different from doing it on a router table or shaper. You can get a whole lot better grip on a router than you can on a stick of wood. I know there are those who will tell you that they "do it all the time" and I do not wish to offend them. I just don't agree with them on this......

[Peter Quinn]

Ditto David...I don't need to see the picks, just need to know you are making cope and stick doors with a router using maple. Maple loves to tear out, soft or hard maple. I've had good luck climb cutting with the shaper but don't reccommend that with a hand fed router. Tough to get all the grain going the same direction with flat sawn maple.

Perhaps slowing the cutter speed a bit and making sure the bits are quite sharp might help? Doesn't take much dullness to tear out maple.

Prepare some extra parts when shaping maple, chances are good your going to lose something at some point.

[Russell Tribby]

Not to worry David, you won't find me doing any climb cutting. I'll pay more attention to grain direction next time and try increasing the rpm's to see if that makes a difference.

[Lee Schierer]

Please do not attempt to "climb cut" without a feeder. It's just not safe. I should mention that "climb cutting" with a hand held router is completely different from doing it on a router table or shaper. You can get a whole lot better grip on a router than you can on a stick of wood. I know there are those who will tell you that they "do it all the time" and I do not wish to offend them. I just don't agree with them on this......
No doubt about it climb cutting can be dangerous if you try to make the full cut in one pass. However, climb cutting even with a table mounted router can be done very safely with out a power feeder. You just need to take a very light cut. The tear out will not occur once the groove is cut about 1/16" deep, so then you can switch to regular cutting to get rid of the rest of the material. If you are concerned about self feeding then take 1/32 off at a time. Never more than 1/16" in a pass. If you use a fence to prevent the part from moving into the cut hand feeding should be fine. Of course, feather boards and push sticks should also be used to insure the stock stays where you want it to. And with any operation you should always stand where the piece can't hit you if it does take off.