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Mike Henderson
04-11-2008, 7:24 PM
I had posted this in response to a posting in the General Woodworking section but felt the it was important enough to make it a posting by itself.

Whirlpool water heaters (sold by Lowes and others) for the past five or so years have a defective thermocouple, or some other defect that causes the thermocouple to fail - I'm not sure of the root cause. The symptom is that the pilot light goes out. You can re-light it but it will go out again, usually the same day. See here (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/whirlpool_water_heaters.html) and here (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/11/whirlpool_class_action.html) for some additional info about the problem.

An issue is that the Whirlpool thermocouple screws into the thermostat with left hand threads and a universal thermocouple has right hand threads. Whirlpool has a conversion kit which they will send you free which converts from left hand to right hand - but if you want it overnight(since you can't keep the pilot light lit) you have to pay the shipping (I think it's about $18).

What I did was cut my old Whirlpool thermocouple about 6" from the threaded part. You'll find an insulated central wire covered by a copper sheath. Solder the central wire onto the center of the universal thermocouple and use stranded wire to connect the outer sheaths together. Then screw back into the thermostat. Call Whirlpool (www.whirlpoolwaterheaters.com (http://www.whirlpoolwaterheaters.com/)) - 877-817-6750 - and order the parts sent via regular shipment (which is free). When you get the kit, replace the klug I described above.

If you have a fairly new Whirlpool water heater from Lowes (say within the past five years) described as a "Flame Lock", you might want to call and get the conversion kit so if your thermocouple fails you can repair it quickly with a universal that you can buy at the Borg for about $7.

Mike

[I added some pictures of my "fix" (described above) to allow me to use a universal thermocouple while I wait for the Whirlpool shipment. Works fine and is safe. The old part of the original thermocouple is just used for the left hand threads. The voltage and current is extremely small (about 20 mV) so if someone touched the exposed wire, it would in no way harm them.]

Mike Armstrong
04-11-2008, 9:31 PM
Good advice, Mike!

I learned about all this stuff while doing some research a couple months ago before replacing my water heater. I still ended up with a Whirlpool from Lowes (:eek:) as they've supposed corrected the problem and have also changed the thermocouple thread to a standard right hand thread. But, if you have one manufactured during that period (I think it was 2000 - 2005 or maybe longer), it's a very good idea to buy a spare as insurance in case yours craps out. And something else I'd didn't initially think about it is that the warranty only covers the original thermocouple. So anyone who's had more than one die on them - and I've read about a few people who've had that problem - is going to have to buy the replacement one anyway. So unless you want to go a few days without hot water, have a spare on hand. And I've found that Lowes doesn't always have them in stock.

Mike

Dennis Peacock
04-11-2008, 9:36 PM
I went through 2 waterheaters. Finally called a local family owned plumbing company to fix it and they said...OH...you have one of THOSE.!! We don't fix those....so I had them replace it with their own waterheaters that they sell / support and we've been very happy ever since.

Matt Meiser
04-11-2008, 10:31 PM
You can tell you have a bad one by looking at the label on your water heater. The bad ones are marked with the code "WHIRLPOOL" in large print.

David G Baker
04-11-2008, 11:36 PM
Matt,
Very good! :D :D

Tom Godley
04-12-2008, 2:27 AM
I wonder who actually makes the water heater for them?? It is always a pain when a part is designed - in this case the threads -- just so you must get the replacement from the original maker. This is especially true when that part has a problem because it is never available in the numbers needed.

An interesting story on water heaters: I believe it was in the early 90's and my memory is telling me that HD did this internally - prior to universally selling water heaters in all the stores. They had a company go and ask people what brand of water heater was installed in the house they live in -- and also what brand of water heater they would buy in the future.

The majority of people said GE -- only one problem -- GE doe not make water heaters - and non were being sold under the GE brand at that time.

So they went to GE and made a deal to design new GE labels and packaging for the same heaters they were selling in some of the stores. They actually did not have to pay GE all that much - I believe only a dollar or two per unit.

GE went for it because the GE service number would be on the new heaters - Service is the profit area.

Dennis Peacock
04-12-2008, 8:18 AM
Whirlpool nor Maytag make their own WH's. They are made by a 3rd party company that makes consumer line WH's. I've had both makes of WH's and the info included with them had the name of the manufacturer in the literature. I just don't remember who the company was. :o

Mike Henderson
04-26-2008, 5:23 PM
In the interest of fairness, I wanted to add a follow-up to this thread. The company who makes the Whirlpool water heaters sent me a conversion kit for my water heater (free). It was easy to install and seems to make sense - it uses a standard thermocouple but has a different sensor to detect if there's a fire from combustible gases that come into the heater.

I'm impressed with the safety features on water heaters now. They have features to block a blowback fire if there's flammable gasses in the area, they detect if the pilot light goes off (old feature) and they detect if the water gets too hot (above 180 degrees) and shut of the burner. They still have the overpressure valve like they always did.

This problem is due to a design problem in one of the safety features. People get very perturbed because we highly value hot water but I have to say that the company stepped up and addressed the problem.

Mike

Doug Mather
04-30-2008, 12:42 AM
Mike;

Thanks for the interim fix; it worked like a charm. Now to get the replacement (and a shower!) :)

Doug

Mike Henderson
04-30-2008, 1:15 AM
Mike;

Thanks for the interim fix; it worked like a charm. Now to get the replacement (and a shower!) :)

Doug
Glad it was of help. I know exactly how you feel.

Mike

[Doug - when you get your kit and go to install it, make sure that you remove the brass nozzle from your old setup and screw it into the kit they send you. It's easy to miss that. Good luck!]

Sean Naylor
12-03-2008, 6:39 AM
Hi Mike Henderson!

Your spliced thermocouple method worked like a GREAT! :) Now I can get the replacement parts and my wife can take a hot shower. Keeps me out of trouble for at least one more day...

Sean

Al Willits
12-03-2008, 8:47 AM
Whirlpool might be the same as American, either way there's a few of the newer flamegaurd style water heaters with updates, not a bad idea to check on any of the new ones you may have.

Wonder what happens to liability when you modify a manufactures product, looks like what you did should work fine, but it'd still make me nervous anytime someone starts playing with safeties.

Al

Mike Henderson
12-03-2008, 9:26 AM
Whirlpool might be the same as American, either way there's a few of the newer flamegaurd style water heaters with updates, not a bad idea to check on any of the new ones you may have.

Wonder what happens to liability when you modify a manufactures product, looks like what you did should work fine, but it'd still make me nervous anytime someone starts playing with safeties.

Al
Sean - I'm glad the fix worked for you.

Al, no problem, that modification was just temporary to keep hot water in the house until the manufacturer sent the parts, which was about a week.

You can imagine the problem. The water heater quits working and you have no hot water in the house. You call the manufacturer and they tell you it's a manufacturing defect and they'll send you a replacement part free - but it takes time to get to you. Meanwhile you and your family are without hot water. This "kluge" is just to get the heater working during that period until the parts get to you. Once you get the parts, the heater is back to manufacturer specifications. And while no one wants to bypass safety features, remember that we operated water heaters for decades without these safety features. As long as the owner is reasonably careful, I don't think it's a serious safety problem.

Mike

Al Willits
12-03-2008, 10:28 AM
Understandable Mike, but after 30+ years in the repair field, I still get a bit nervous when people start modifying their gas appliances, yours went well but many aren't quite so fortunate.

And I do know about the little lady being with out hot water and I'd have done the same thing to keep peace...:D

Al

Mike Henderson
12-03-2008, 12:12 PM
Understandable Mike, but after 30+ years in the repair field, I still get a bit nervous when people start modifying their gas appliances, yours went well but many aren't quite so fortunate.

And I do know about the little lady being with out hot water and I'd have done the same thing to keep peace...:D

Al
[Laughter] You know EXACTLY why I had to do that! You should have heard my wife when we lost the hot water. She was not going to put up with one day without hot water, let alone a week.

And I understand your first comment. I'm nervous about that also.

Mike

Sean Naylor
12-03-2008, 12:29 PM
Your wife...? Mine was actually standing over my sholder as I was doing it. Crack'n that whip! :D

JohnT Fitzgerald
12-03-2008, 2:46 PM
My thought exactly! LOL.

Scott Myers
12-03-2008, 2:56 PM
I just replaced my water heater with a Whirlpool about 3-4 months ago. I looks like I may be OK, at least according to the links. I'm holding my breath!

Dennis Peacock
12-03-2008, 11:35 PM
I went through 3 Whirlpool water heaters in under 4 years time. The last time we just called our local plumber and they replaced it with one they install, service, and warranty. Haven't had a problem with our water heater in about 2 years now. Besides, if anything goes wrong with it in 10 years time? They come and fix/replace it at no cost to be. New premium WH, installation, hauling off the old one, and labor cost? $724.00

Very well worth it for no more cold showers and no more worrying about why the WH ain't working AGAIN. :D

Mike Henderson
12-04-2008, 12:16 AM
Other than that one problem, which was a design defect, I have not had any problems with my Whirlpool water heater. Whirlpool water heaters are made by American Water Heaters, which is a reputable company who makes heaters under a variety of names. I fully expect to get 20 years of service from the unit.

I might add that when I called American (who answers the number listed for Whirlpool WHs) about the problem I had, they responded quickly, politely, and without any questions.

Mike

Ward Joy
02-06-2013, 9:54 AM
I had posted this in response to a posting in the General Woodworking section but felt the it was important enough to make it a posting by itself.

Whirlpool water heaters (sold by Lowes and others) for the past five or so years have a defective thermocouple, or some other defect that causes the thermocouple to fail - I'm not sure of the root cause. The symptom is that the pilot light goes out. You can re-light it but it will go out again, usually the same day. See here (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/whirlpool_water_heaters.html) and here (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/11/whirlpool_class_action.html) for some additional info about the problem.

An issue is that the Whirlpool thermocouple screws into the thermostat with left hand threads and a universal thermocouple has right hand threads. Whirlpool has a conversion kit which they will send you free which converts from left hand to right hand - but if you want it overnight(since you can't keep the pilot light lit) you have to pay the shipping (I think it's about $18).

What I did was cut my old Whirlpool thermocouple about 6" from the threaded part. You'll find an insulated central wire covered by a copper sheath. Solder the central wire onto the center of the universal thermocouple and use stranded wire to connect the outer sheaths together. Then screw back into the thermostat. Call Whirlpool (www.whirlpoolwaterheaters.com (http://www.whirlpoolwaterheaters.com/)) - 877-817-6750 - and order the parts sent via regular shipment (which is free). When you get the kit, replace the klug I described above.

If you have a fairly new Whirlpool water heater from Lowes (say within the past five years) described as a "Flame Lock", you might want to call and get the conversion kit so if your thermocouple fails you can repair it quickly with a universal that you can buy at the Borg for about $7.

Mike

[I added some pictures of my "fix" (described above) to allow me to use a universal thermocouple while I wait for the Whirlpool shipment. Works fine and is safe. The old part of the original thermocouple is just used for the left hand threads. The voltage and current is extremely small (about 20 mV) so if someone touched the exposed wire, it would in no way harm them.]




Mike, thanks for this info.... Just helped me McGyver my Thermocouple so the wife could take a hot shower.... Info like this is a blessing....

Thanks again.

Jerome Stanek
02-06-2013, 11:13 AM
My sons water heater had a gas valve that said it had a one shot deal that you had to replace it if you lost gas pressure after it had been used. I ended up replacing the gas valve because I could no keep it lit. Now it stays lit and works fine I got a used gas valve from a place for free.

Mike Henderson
02-06-2013, 12:06 PM
This thread has had a long life. I occasionally get a message from someone not associated with SawMill Creek who found this thread and fixed their water heater problem. If I had known it would be that valuable to others, I would have taken better pictures in the beginning and described the fix better. But I suppose people have been able to figure it out. I suppose when you have the pieces in your hands my description is more understandable.

Anyway, glad it helped people. Waking up to cold water for a shower is not pleasant.

Mike

Rick Potter
02-06-2013, 12:45 PM
Mike,

Let me add one more problem to avoid.

During the same time as your original post, I had a Lowes (I think it was Whirlpool, but not sure) water heater in a rental. Within a year the thermocouple went out, and I replaced it. Within six months or so, it went out again. Now, this water heater had the air intake on the BOTTOM, with a very fine mesh plate for air.

It turns out that the intake would clog, and it was almost impossible to vacuum off the mesh, as it was in a closet, and had a pan under it. The unit would fire up, starve for air, and turn off. I replaced it in less than two years. The new one has air intake on the SIDE of the heater, and the holes are large enough that they don't clog.

Five years or so later...no problems, happy tenant, happier landlord.

Rick Potter

Chris Padilla
02-06-2013, 1:33 PM
Rick,

I'm in the market for a new water heater. We have a good ole Kenmore from Sears. It says 1996 on it and we bought the house in 1999. So, it is doing well and there are no leaks (replaced the thermocouple twice) but I see a lot of rust on the stand (dunno about the tank...again, no leaks that I can see/detect) so I figure I have some time to look around and educate myself. Up here in the BA, I'm lucky to live in a county that has restrictions on water heater emissions so I can only use ULN (ultra low NOx) qualified water heaters and thus, my choices get narrowed. I had thought to simply replace it with another Kenmore but the ULN version is not energy star and still has a standing pilot (probably why it is not energy star). AO Smith and Bradford-White seem to be reputable but to get those, I have to pay the plumbing outfit to install it for me so I'm looking at a grand minimum depending on which w/h I go for. For some of these ULN, I've heard about this mesh screen getting clogged but it isn't only on the ULN designs. In CA, the w/h must be placed on a stand/box/whathaveyou that is 12" off the floor so I had thought to cut a hole in the stand to make cleaning this screen easier. This would be easier to do if I could install the w/h I want myself instead of taking apart someone else's work that I paid for. Still looking around....

Mike Henderson
02-06-2013, 1:36 PM
Rick,

I'm in the market for a new water heater. We have a good ole Kenmore from Sears. It says 1996 on it and we bought the house in 1999. So, it is doing well and there are no leaks (replaced the thermocouple twice) but I see a lot of rust on the stand (dunno about the tank...again, no leaks that I can see/detect) so I figure I have some time to look around and educate myself. Up here in the BA, I'm lucky to live in a county that has restrictions on water heater emissions so I can only use ULN (ultra low NOx) qualified water heaters and thus, my choices get narrowed. I had thought to simply replace it with another Kenmore but the ULN version is not energy star and still has a standing pilot (probably why it is not energy star). AO Smith and Bradford-White seem to be reputable but to get those, I have to pay the plumbing outfit to install it for me so I'm looking at a grand minimum depending on which w/h I go for. For some of these ULN, I've heard about this mesh screen getting clogged but it isn't only on the ULN designs. In CA, the w/h must be placed on a stand/box/whathaveyou that is 12" off the floor so I had thought to cut a hole in the stand to make cleaning this screen easier. This would be easier to do if I could install the w/h I want myself instead of taking apart someone else's work that I paid for. Still looking around....
Give some thought to a tankless. I have a tankless in my house now and really like it. No running out of hot water and lower gas bills (I noticed a difference in the bill after I installed the tankless).

Mike

Harry Hagan
02-06-2013, 2:02 PM
I wonder who actually makes the water heater for them?? It is always a pain when a part is designed - in this case the threads -- just so you must get the replacement from the original maker. This is especially true when that part has a problem because it is never available in the numbers needed.

An interesting story on water heaters: I believe it was in the early 90's and my memory is telling me that HD did this internally - prior to universally selling water heaters in all the stores. They had a company go and ask people what brand of water heater was installed in the house they live in -- and also what brand of water heater they would buy in the future.

The majority of people said GE -- only one problem -- GE doe not make water heaters - and non were being sold under the GE brand at that time.

So they went to GE and made a deal to design new GE labels and packaging for the same heaters they were selling in some of the stores. They actually did not have to pay GE all that much - I believe only a dollar or two per unit.

GE went for it because the GE service number would be on the new heaters - Service is the profit area.


We bought a "GE" a few years back from HD that was made by Rheem. It seems to be working just fine and I'm glad we only referenced a comparable Whirlpool model at Lowe's to get the Depot's price match minus 10% discount.

Chris Padilla
02-06-2013, 2:34 PM
Give some thought to a tankless. I have a tankless in my house now and really like it. No running out of hot water and lower gas bills (I noticed a difference in the bill after I installed the tankless).

Mike

Tankless doesn't appear to have the payback for its cost from all that I've seen and read. But, perhaps I need to get an outfit or two out to my house and see what it will actually cost me. Hmmmm.... What brand did you go with, Mike?

Mike Henderson
02-06-2013, 2:49 PM
Tankless doesn't appear to have the payback for its cost from all that I've seen and read. But, perhaps I need to get an outfit or two out to my house and see what it will actually cost me. Hmmmm.... What brand did you go with, Mike?
I have a Rheem. And you're correct, from just a dollars and cents point of view, it's hard to justify a tankless. You'll almost certainly have to do some plumbing work and you need electricity at the tankless (there's a lot of electronics in a tankless). But there's two things that make it attractive: You never run out of hot water. With our tank, I'd get in the shower first and my wife might put in a load of wash. By the time she got to shower, there was no hot water (and happy wife, happy life). Second, they do use significantly less gas, I guess mainly because they don't have to keep a tank of water hot 24 hours a day.

One other thing that might help is that most gas companies offer rebates to install a tankless.

Mike

[Check your usage, but for many houses, this one (http://www.amazon.com/Rheem-RTG-84DVN-Direct-Natural-Tankless/dp/B003UHURWG/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1360180240&sr=8-6&keywords=rheem+tankless+water+heater) may do the job. Mine is installed on the side of the house. If you want to go with an exterior one, look at this one (http://www.amazon.com/Rheem-RTG-84XN-Outdoor-Series8-4-Tankless/dp/B003UHURXU/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1360180240&sr=8-9&keywords=rheem+tankless+water+heater). I don't know if prices went up, but I paid $800 for that exterior one in August 2012.]

Rick Potter
02-07-2013, 3:28 AM
Hi Chris,

That bit about the pilot is certainly ironic, considering that the WH is probably the only gas appliance that actually benefits from a pilot, keeping the water warmer longer before big bertha kicks in.

I hope you are able to find a WH with a side air inlet rather than the bottom one, it will certainly save you grief.

BTW, it is apparantly illegal to buy a normal heater in your area, it may be illegal for a licensed plumber to install one also, but........is it illegal for a homeowner to own one if he buys it in another county and installs it himself?? Kind of like me buying oil based varnish when I go to Arizona in a few days. There is no law that I know of prohibiting non comercial use of it for homeowners. Shhhh, don't give Gov. Moonbeam any ideas.

Rick P.

Jim Koepke
02-07-2013, 11:55 AM
This is one of those times that having a Sticky at the top of the Off Topic Forum for the best home repair threads seems like a good idea.

A repository of the many things people have done, repaired our discovered.

Just a Thought,

jtk

Bill Bukovec
02-08-2013, 10:31 AM
So who makes a dependable water heater?

Ours is 20 + years old and I was thinkking of replaceing it before it fails.

Any brands you would recommend?

Thanks,

Bill

Brad Sperr
02-08-2013, 11:31 AM
So who makes a dependable water heater?

Ours is 20 + years old and I was thinkking of replaceing it before it fails.

Any brands you would recommend?

Thanks,

Bill

If your water heater has made it 20+ years then I would stick with that brand :)

I've also heard good things about Bradford White, but you have to buy those from a supply house.

Mike Henderson
02-08-2013, 12:31 PM
So who makes a dependable water heater?

Ours is 20 + years old and I was thinkking of replaceing it before it fails.

Any brands you would recommend?

Thanks,

Bill
There are only a few hot water heater manufacturers in the US and they make the hot water heaters for the various companies who sell them. I'm sure they make them to the specifications of the marketing company so some are probably better than others. But I wouldn't necessarily go with a company just because their unit made 20 years ago was a good one. Companies change a lot in 20 years and they may not make the best units any more. Better to check current reviews to see what people recommend today.

Mike

Rick Moyer
02-09-2013, 1:56 PM
So who makes a dependable water heater?

Ours is 20 + years old and I was thinkking of replaceing it before it fails.

Any brands you would recommend?

Thanks,

Bill
I bit the (price) bullet and bought one of these http://www.marathonheaters.com/consumers.html recently. couldn't be happier so far.
I was having a problem with the softener system causing pre-mature failure of the anode rod in our older unit. this one eliminates that possibility. More info available on that at water heater rescue dot com.

Chris Padilla
02-12-2013, 8:12 PM
I bit the (price) bullet and bought one of these http://www.marathonheaters.com/consumers.html recently. couldn't be happier so far.
I was having a problem with the softener system causing pre-mature failure of the anode rod in our older unit. this one eliminates that possibility. More info available on that at water heater rescue dot com.

Wow, that looks like a pretty solid WH! I see the EF is 0.94+!! Amazing! I assume yours is electric, Rick? I couldn't tell if that was all they sell.

Rick Moyer
02-13-2013, 6:05 AM
Yes, Chris, we are all electric right now, although I'd like to get NG but it would cost me $7500 to get the main line run:eek:!
It's an awesome WH, but it's expensive. Could probably buy three others , but this one's gauranteed and I don't plan on moving again.

Greg Portland
02-13-2013, 3:32 PM
[Laughter] You know EXACTLY why I had to do that! You should have heard my wife when we lost the hot water. She was not going to put up with one day without hot water, let alone a week.

And I understand your first comment. I'm nervous about that also.

Mike
As a side note, you can often get free 1 week gym memberships (tell them you're thinking about moving to the area, are looking for a gym, etc.).

Chris Padilla
02-13-2013, 7:41 PM
Yes, Chris, we are all electric right now, although I'd like to get NG but it would cost me $7500 to get the main line run:eek:!
It's an awesome WH, but it's expensive. Could probably buy three others , but this one's gauranteed and I don't plan on moving again.

I'd like to see them come out with a heat pump water heater. I dig all that plastic...no rust and it is extremely well-insulated!!! A HPWH would work well in my insulated garage, where my current WH lives. I still need to crunch some numbers but I also have solar PV on the roof so going electric is likely better than going NG for me.

Mike Henderson
02-15-2013, 11:22 PM
I'd like to see them come out with a heat pump water heater. I dig all that plastic...no rust and it is extremely well-insulated!!! A HPWH would work well in my insulated garage, where my current WH lives. I still need to crunch some numbers but I also have solar PV on the roof so going electric is likely better than going NG for me.
I don't know if this is what you mean, but I had a heat collector for my hot water heater on my air conditioner (in Florida). If you look at how an air conditioner works, the fluid (Freon) is pumped to the evaporator (inside your house) where the liquid Freon is converted to a gas. In the process, in absorbs heat. This gas then goes to the compressor where it is compressed and converted back to a liquid. Converting it back to a liquid makes the liquid hot (can be very hot). This hot liquid is then passed to the coils where a fan blows air over the coils to remove the heat.

If you take the output from the compressor and pass it into a heat exchanger which uses water from your water heater, the water will absorb some of the heat, making your air conditioner more efficient (less heat has to be removed by the coils and fan) and you get some hot water from the exchange. The heat exchanger has a small 240V pump to pump the water between it and the water heater and only operates when the compressor is operating.

Mike

Chris Padilla
02-17-2013, 12:54 PM
http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/heat-pump-water-heaters

http://www.toolbase.org/Techinventory/TechDetails.aspx?ContentDetailID=4053

And the one I will likely get: http://www.hotwater.com/water-heaters/residential/hybrid/voltex/

Right now, PG&E will give me a $500 rebate for that HPWH. The Fed will kick in another $300. With these rebates, the cost of the HPWH drops to around $700 and payback will be around 2 years and probably less.

Mike Henderson
02-19-2013, 10:42 AM
While those heat pump water heaters (HPWH) are more efficient than regular tank style water heaters, I believe the tankless water heaters are more efficient. No matter how you heat the water in a tank, it's going to lose heat during the day and energy will have to be used to replace the lost heat. A tankless, on the other hand, only heats water on demand.

Mike

Chris Padilla
02-19-2013, 12:47 PM
Yes, tankless ARE very efficient...but they are expensive and have a few drawbacks I didn't like. Often, the price for them and the energy they save over their lifetime do not add up to overall savings. I really wanted one, too, but the numbers didn't work out for me.

David Weaver
02-19-2013, 12:48 PM
It would probably depend on how much water you used. The heat pump water heaters, which can be tied into geothermal, too, are slow, but they're not doing all of the work like an on-demand heater is. Part of the work is being done by the heat exchange with the air or the ground.

BIL has one (and has it tied into geothermal) and has commented that it's really efficient, but it's (his, maybe not all) also really slow to heat water if it's your only source.

Chris Padilla
02-19-2013, 1:00 PM
David, you are correct. The HPWH aren't the fastest suppliers of hot water if they run low so upsizing should be considered. The one I am considering is a 60 gallon. We've done fine in our house of 3 with a 40 gallon NG tank for 15 years. The AO Smith HPWH comes in 60 or 80 gallon. I think it will work out very well for us. For sure, water heaters are not a one-size-fits-all scenario! Also, most HPWH do come with an electrical resistance heater as a back-up so that helps the recovery. We also have PV panels on our roof so moving from NG to electric makes even more sense for us for hot water.

Chris Padilla
08-01-2013, 5:49 PM
I thought I'd revive this thread since I am now the owner of an AO Smith HPWH (PHPT60, 60 gallon heat pump/electric water heater). My father and I installed it last weekend and it has been running nicely thus far. It is too early to figure out any cost savings yet.

I found a place in NJ online selling it for $1036 including shipping/tax (of which there wasn't any). My local utility will rebate me $500 (right away) and the Fed will provide an energy credit of $300 (to be filed next year). For those not familiar with a heat pump, it sucks in ambient air, removes the heat (and uses it to heat the water) and moisture (condenses and drains out) and then blows out cool, dry air. My location is somewhat confined and I've determined that I need to pick up AO Smith's outlet duct kit and redirect that cool, dry air to ensure it is not being sucked back into the inlet side. That is another $120. I had about $100 in various parts (copper pipe/fittings, pvc, electrical box/outlet/wire, valves, pipe insulation, etc.). I figure I have another $450 to make back to break even on this deal. I don't imagine that will take longer than a couple of years. I get 10 years on the tank and parts. AO Smith's customer service has been pretty good as I had some issues. One was the display panel that they forgot to plug into the circuit board. One was a wire I cut that I shouldn't have (for the float switch on my condensation pump) that they helped me diagnose via feedback from the display panel. I also have very small bubbles of paint (i.e. rust forming under the paint) on the outer "tank" or sleeve of the water heater here and there. Since this isn't the actual tank, I'm not too worried but there are some issues with quality control for the painting, I think.

I'll post some pics later of my install.

Jerome Stanek
08-01-2013, 6:44 PM
Some of them also have a one shot gas valve if it trips you can not light it again. My sons tripped after Sandy and I tried everything to relight it. Ended up putting on a new used gas valve that I got for a supply house they looked at the old one and told me they have replace a few of them.

Chris Padilla
08-16-2013, 3:56 PM
Here are some shots of the "almost done" install of my AO Smith Voltex Heat Pump Water Heater.

I still need to figure out where I'm going to route the cool, dry output air. The manual is pretty clear than I cannot use more than 10' of 8" flex duct.

I purchased the output duct kit as a separate option after my father and I figured that the heat pump would work better with the cool air sent further away.

The orientation of the water heater probably isn't as ideal as I'd like but we turned it like this with the idea of needing to get 8" duct on the output and that elbow in there does just barely clear some obstacles so I guess we did all right considering we didn't have the output duct kit at the time of install.

The water heater's cold and hot lines are not on top as you can see...that is where the heat pump is located. So it took a bit of copper and some fittings and some time to get everything lined up close. A new rule here in California for the pressure valve is that it needs routed outside more or less. We routed it outside on a slight slope so that I can detect if it is leaking at all.

I don't have a drain nearby so we used a condensation pump. California isn't very humid but the heat pump still pulls some decent moisture out of the warm air.

I have the water heater sitting on some "milk jug" lumber that I salvaged from a long-ago project that is no longer.

So far so good with the water heater. We are happy with it and now only use natural gas for the furnace and fireplace which means no NG use for half a year or so.