Are you sick of flattening chisel/plane irons?

[Matt Bickford]

I have been using a Norton 220 grit diamond stone to flatten the backs of everything that comes into my shop for a few years now. I have been making a lot of molding planes for myself recently and got completely SICK of how long this takes. It only took 5-10 minutes but doing this 20 times on 20 new irons gets old fast.

I called toolsforworkingwood and explained my situation. The man that answered the phone suggested that I try the steel flattening plate (Kanaban) that they sell and which he uses. 5 minutes has been turned into 30 seconds or less... 5-10 swipes. I was pretty surprised but not completely convinced. I took out a 2" antique store special that I've put off flattening/using for 9 months due to preliminary results of how flat that back was. 2 minutes later I was done.

I only bought the 45 micron paste because I only want it to flatten these things. I don't know how the other options will work.

CHECK IT OUT!

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-SFP200&Category_Code=THW

[David DeCristoforo]

Glad you discovered this. You can buy various grits of carborundum powder from places like the Japan Woodworker or Hida Tool that are cheaper than most of the pastes and this will make short work of the backs of even the mega-hard Japanese chisels and plane blades.

[John Dykes]

I think I prematurely aged my DMT coarse\xtra coarse stone by continually flattening all of my Shaptons.

The DMT still works pretty well for O1, but A2 is a slow grind. And after many long, hard (and very bloody) battles w/ my Hirsch chisel set, I'm tempted to try this.

David, are you saying "carborundum" is better than the diamond paste?

hmmm -

- jbd in Denver

[David DeCristoforo]

"...are you saying "carborundum" is better than the diamond paste?"

No... not better... just way cheaper!

[Charlie Mastro]

I've been using a kanaban for over twenty years but sooner or later you will get the kanaban dished but they are two sided so you can try to flatten or flip it over. It is the fastest method I've found.
I just read the link to the Tools for Woodworking page and the only thing I don't agree with is the need to use your water stones for the final finish. You use as little water as possible with a small amount of carborundum powder and you keep rubbing the blade until the paste dries out and you lessen the pressure on the blade as you finish when the paste is completly dry. Look at the blade should be completely polished like you had used your finest stone. You keep breaking down the powder until it becomes a polishing powder and it's done. Although the carborundum does impregnate the steel over time it does dish out the plate. I've done it.

[Wilbur Pan]

Charlie,

So in your experience, what's the expected lifespan of a kanaban that's used primarily with coarse grit carborundum powder?

[Charlie Mastro]

It took quite a few years before I noticed it because I didn't think it would so I didn't check it. I'm suggesting you check it like you would your stones after a year or so. I used small sections and moved around a lot so I think that helped. Your milage may vary.:rolleyes:

[Howard Pollack]

Can someone tell me with which grit carborundum you start the process? Thanks -Howard

[Charlie Mastro]

Mine is #180 and #230 I don't think it much matters as long as it's not a lot finer. Just like you were using sandpaper the finer the grit the longer it will take.

[Steve knight]

I think I prematurely aged my DMT coarse\xtra coarse stone by continually flattening all of my Shaptons.

The DMT still works pretty well for O1, but A2 is a slow grind. And after many long, hard (and very bloody) battles w/ my Hirsch chisel set, I'm tempted to try this.

David, are you saying "carborundum" is better than the diamond paste?

hmmm -

- jbd in Denver
you have it the other way around it is the steel that is wearing out the stones fast. I have used my dmt's on my shaptons for 2 years with no issues but it never touches steel. I have worn out more diamond stones sharpening steel but never oen flattening stones.

[Johnny Kleso]

I was a foreman of 140 year old diamond tool company for a few years and diamonds are not ment to grind soft steel.. The soft steel pulls the diamonds out of the matrix that holds them to gether..

They do much better grinding very hard steel like carbide..

To dress a diamond wheel all you need to do is grind some stainless steel and it will ture the wheel just like you use a diamond to ture a A/O wheel..

I have a big DMT and use it only to dress my bench stones..

[harry strasil]

I don't use iron planes or new chisels, only woodie planes and some specialty metal planes and only old chisels, so have never flattened the soles or backs, never needed to just sharpen cutting edges and use them. To me so called Fettling= Fussing.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Isn't that just a little lapping plate?

[Matt Bickford]

I have several plane irons that are new and old (more than 50). I have several chisels that are new and old (more than 25). The number of these cutting edges that have not needed some work on the back side could be counted on one hand. I do not own an old molding plane iron or old chisel that did not need work. I wish I had your luck.

[Doug Hobkirk]

I am curious about the answer to Cliff's question - is the Kabana really just a flat surface for using the grinding powder or paste? Would a piece of granite or glas work just as well?

[Matt Z Wilson]

Probably not, the idea is that that Kanaban is softer material than the steel AND the grit. The pressure from lapping embeds the grit into the cast iron of the kanaban and holds it there so it can abrade the chisel, plane blade, etc. same idea as an industrial lapping plate. Glass and granite are probable harder than the grit so they won't hold it like the cast iron can. While I think they would still work, the grit would slide around between the granite/glass and the steel and I doubt that situation would be as effective as the other method.

[Joe McMahon]

I'm not the brightest pencil in the box but are you flattening the back of the chisel/plane or are you polishing it? Polishing is not the same as flattening so a bright, shiny back does not necessarily mean that it is flat and if it isn't flat, it won't cut to it's true potential. No?

[Matt Bickford]

Joe, who is this question addressed to?

[Matt Bickford]

Doug, I think that the description at the website has more information than I can personally provide. If you give them a call they will probably have better technical answers for this specific product than we will. I have never used a piece of glass or a piece of granite for any sort of sharpening. If you're happy with the way you get from A to B than this product is probably not for you. If you get similar results to what I described with your glass or granite, I cannot recommend this product to you.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Probably not, the idea is that that Kanaban is softer material than the steel

A lapping plate is typically made from cast iron with lots of little grooves cut in with a file or whatever to help distribute the compound. They can also be made from copper and brass but Cast Iron is the norm.


AND the grit. The pressure from lapping embeds the grit into the cast iron of the kanaban and holds it there so it can abrade the chisel, plane blade, etc. same idea as an industrial lapping plate.

Then it is just a little lapping plate with a fancy schmancy name.

Bear in mind however, that the traditional lapping plate material was very much a partner in crime with whe tradition lapping compounds which were carborundum and aluminum oxides and not diamond. Diamond grit changes everything. It can lodge in glass, hardened steel, you name it. I think I still prefer cast iron.



Glass and granite are probable harder than the grit so they won't hold it like the cast iron can

Not harder than diamond grit. Not by half.



While I think they would still work, the grit would slide around between the granite/glass and the steel and I doubt that situation would be as effective as the other method.

I agree. I think you'd get more grit in the cast iron - no matter what. And what a terrible thing to do to a piece of granite~!! I might consider class for a very fine diamond paste to impart a micro bevel.
When using glass and diamond to do that you can rely more or less on the flatness of the glass and when you wear it out (which should happen pretty quick) you can replace it cheaply.

One thing that a lot of folks who are trying to flatten a surface don't keep in mind is that in lapping one does not rely on the lapping plate to be a reference surface. The plate's flatness is not relevant and in fact it won't be flat. The flatness of the finished work is the result of the tradesman's technique and execution not the plate.

One can sort of cheat using a granite or other reference surface and adhere an abrasive paper to the flat surface. In such an instance one can obtain a pretty good flat if one is careful not to apply pressure unevenly during the stroke.

This is about dead opposite the lapper's trade skill which requires a carefuly imparted form of randomness in pressure and motion.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I was a foreman of 140 year old diamond tool company for a few years and diamonds are not ment to grind soft steel.. The soft steel pulls the diamonds out of the matrix that holds them to gether..

They do much better grinding very hard steel like carbide..

To dress a diamond wheel all you need to do is grind some stainless steel and it will ture the wheel just like you use a diamond to ture a A/O wheel..

I have a big DMT and use it only to dress my bench stones..

What he said~!!!

I use diamond on hardened high speed steel but never on a cast iron plane bottom. Old school carborundum and aluminum oxide grits are the bees knees there.


I will use my DMT diamond stone to hone a chisel after sharpening it.

As to the idea of flattening the plane parts using diamond paste:
I rather suspect that the paste will impregnate the surface of the steel and from then on it'll be abrading whatever it comes into contact with.
I would not use diamond paste for plane components because of that.

When hand polishing plastic injection molds diamond paste is the fastest way to go and I'm sure that the first few molded parts will have some grit in em. but the shiny mold surfaces don't rub against other metal parts.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm not the brightest pencil in the box but are you flattening the back of the chisel/plane or are you polishing it? Polishing is not the same as flattening so a bright, shiny back does not necessarily mean that it is flat and if it isn't flat, it won't cut to it's true potential. No?
Well, this is my opinion so take it for what it's worth.

For most chisels, the amount of dish or convex is pretty small. The reason most people "flatten" the back of a chisel is to get the part near the edge smooth. Since an edge (or arris) consists of two surfaces, you need to make both of those surfaces smooth to have an edge that is smooth (no nicks). If you have a scratch on the back of the chisel, no matter how much you polish the front of the bevel the arris will have a nick in it at the scratch.

But it's generally easier to "flatten" the back of a chisel to get the area at the edge smooth.

Also note that when your chisel wears from use the edge becomes somewhat rounded. That "roundness" occurs on both the top and bottom. When sharpening, it's much easier to take out the roundness on the back by cutting back on the front of the bevel than by trying to flatten the back again.

A chisel would have to have a really bad belly or cave to affect it's use, at least for me. If it's generally flat and the edge is polished on both sides, it's good to go.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

But it's generally easier to "flatten" the back of a chisel to get the area at the edge smooth.

Also note that when your chisel wears from use the edge becomes somewhat rounded. That "roundness" occurs on both the top and bottom. When sharpening, it's much easier to take out the roundness on the back by cutting back on the front of the bevel than by trying to flatten the back again.

A chisel would have to have a really bad belly or cave to affect it's use, at least for me. If it's generally flat and the edge is polished on both sides, it's good to go.

Mike

Don't forget pits and abuse. Many of us buy chisels second, third or multihanded down. These have often suffered years of abuse and improper storage. Even with powered abrasion, these can take a chunk of one's time to get into an acceptable shape.

Here is a pair that was recently acquired. They took a bit of time to get the pits, nicks and roundness out of cutting area. IMO, they are worth it.

jim

[Paul Kierstead]

I recently spent some quality time with a some carborundum and a pre-production lapping plate (coming soon to a woodworking store/website near you, I believe) and it worked very well. I did a couple of #4's with it, some plane blades and a couple of very wide chisels. It is a wee bit heavy, but a lovely piece of gear.