Newbie neander - what handplane should I buy?

[Niels J. Larsen]

First time here on the neander side of the Creek and I need some help...

I've been items small enough to plane glued up panels on my jointer/planer, but no more!

I will glue up panels too wide for that and for the logical thing would be to use a hand plane.

However I'm confused exactly what plane I need!

Should I get a jack plane or a smoothing plane?
I've looked at both Lie-Nielsen no. 4 Smoothing Plane and Clifton's of similar size.
After looking more into the use for smoothing planes, it seems they are not designed to flatten panels after glue up, but - well the obvious I guess - smoothing the flattened panel before finishing.

So, do I need a jack plane AND a smoothing plane?

BTW: I'm all for the beautiful and high quality tools like Lie-Nielsen and Clifton, but what do I get for my money apart from the beautiful looks?
Will I get much better results and easier setup than by using e.g. a "normal" Stanley?

[Casey Gooding]

Ahh. Welcome to our side !!!
Your basic kit of handplanes should include the following.
-Smoothing plane (#3, #4 or #4 1/2. Better still, all three)
-Jack Plane (#5)
-Jointer Plane (#7 or #8)
-Low angle block plane (#60 1/2 or similar)

If you are working that much stock and want to get to work quickly, get a #5 first. It's a good all around size and, in a pinch, can work as a large smoother or small jointer.

Later you will want to add other planes like a shoulder plane, but these will get you started for now.

Yes, Lie-Nielsen is worth every penny you spend on them. Clifton can be great, but you can get a dog as well. They simply aren't as consistent as LN.
You could always go the route of rehabbing old Stanley planes. Or, you could buy some Hock blades for Krenov planes and make them yourself.

I would buy a nice one first, then explore other options.
Hope this helps!!!

[Jim Koepke]

I agree with Casey.
I would not suggest buying a Stanley via auction as a first plane if you do not know how to sharpen blades and set a plane up.

Some of the people here are happy to sell you a plane that has been set up and will work for you when it arrives.

For myself, I have bought many planes at auction, estate sales, yard sale and flea markets. Many of them have just needed a cleaning, sharpening and a few adjustments. Many of them have required a lot of work to get them to a place where they could cut wood.

You can learn a lot of the trials and errors of others by doing a search here on the Creek for planes.

You will also find reference to "blood & gore," rexmill and others. These are all informative sites. It would be good to read and study them before putting money out for a Stanley plane. There are many opinions, and that is all they are. My preference is for Stanley planes made before 1920. That is in no way a statement of planes made after that not being good equipment. It is just what I like and imho, this was the high point of the metalic plane makers art until the new makers came along.

So good luck with the quest,

jim

[Wilbur Pan]

You might want to think about this a little differently. Instead of asking, "Which plane should I buy first?" pick a woodworking task you want to do and ask, "Which planes will make this job easier?"

To give you an idea:

Dovetails: low angle block plane or smoothing plane to smooth down the ends of the pins and tails that you've left a little proud.

General milling and dimensioning boards: smoothing plane, jointer plane, and jack plane. Plus a scrub, maybe.

Making a tenon: shoulder plane to help trim the tenon piece to fit. Maybe a rabbet plane.

Making a groove away from the edge of a board: plow plane or router plane.

And so on.

[Michael Faurot]

BTW: I'm all for the beautiful and high quality tools like Lie-Nielsen and Clifton, but what do I get for my money apart from the beautiful looks?


I don't know about Clifton (I don't have any), but with Lie-Nielsen you get several things:
A plane that is ready to go to work, out of the box. The only thing that might be needed is to hone the blade.
As you've mentioned--a beautiful tool.
A quality tool. One that's been made and manufactured by people that care about their product.
A tool with a life time warranty that the company stands behind.Regarding Lie-Nielsen's warranty, here's a little story. A few months back I bought my first Lie-Nielsen plane at Woodcraft. What I bought was a #041 Small Shoulder Plane (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=041). When I got the plane home I immediately adjusted the blade and the mouth and set about putting it to use. It worked great out of the box, I didn't even need to hone the blade. A week or two later, I disassembled the plane to get the blade out and sharpen it for the first time. When I put it back together, I noticed a problem. When I would go to turn the adjustment screw for the adjustable mouth--it would turn and turn, but the mouth would not close. So I took it apart and discovered there were no threads in there for the adjustment screw to bite into. I guess in my initial excitement, when I first tried it out, I didn't even notice this defect.

So I called Lie-Nielsen. When the call was answered--I was talking to a person and not a voice mail system. I told the person I needed to speak with someone about their Small Shoulder plane. I was put on hold for a minute or two and then the call was picked up by someone else. I explained my difficulty and after some dialogue it was agreed I had received a defective plane. I was apologized to profusely and assured that what I received was a fluke and shouldn't have happened. The gentlemen I spoke to asked me to ship them the defective plane and to include a copy of the receipt for the shipping charges and they would reimburse me.

So the next day, I shipped it off. Instead of putting the reciept in the box, I instead scanned a copy of it and emailed that to the person I was dealing with. My shipping was pretty minor at something like $11 or so, so in my email I suggested that instead of messing around with cutting me a check, just send me a Lie-Nielsen T-Shirt instead.

So when the plane arrives at Lie-Nielsen, I get contacted via email that they received it, and they'd be shipping me a replacement, a T-Shirt instead of a check, and because they felt bad about the whole situation they also sent me a DVD of Chris Schwarz' Forgotten Hand Tools.

Now that's what I call customer service. It sucks when you buy something and it turns out to be defective. But when the company that makes it stands behind it and trully feels bad about having put you through an RMA process--you've just gotta love it.

As you might guess--I'm a happy Lie-Nielsen customer and they're going to continue to get my business.

[Hank Knight]

Niels,

You will get so many opinions about which plane to buy, it will make you crazy. I agree with Wilbur Pan's approach to consider which plane will make your job easier. I will give you my opinion.

If you are not ready to commit to spending a HUGE amount of money on a whole stable of hand planes, look for a good, versitile plane that will accomplish your purpose. As I understand, you are looking for a plane that will flatten and smooth panels that are too wide for your planer. A low angle, bevel up jack plane is a good compromise between a long plane for jointing and flattening and a short plane for smoothing. It can be used for both purposes; but as with any compromise, there are limitations. A jack is too short to be a good jointer (flattening plane) for long work. It will work pretty well straightening and flattening shorter stock - say anything up to 24 inches, maybe up to 36 inches long or wide. Similarly, it is too long to work as a real smoother, but in my opinion it does better at smoothing than it does at flattening long stock. Moreover, you can adjust the cutting angle of a low angle, bevel up plane (by grinding a different cutting angle) to address different kinds of wood (do a search on this board for "low angle" or "bevel up" planes" and read about this technique). This makes these planes much more versitile than a standard bevel down bench plane.

If I were in your shoes looking for one plane to flatten and smooth wide panels, I'd look for a Lie-Nielsen or a Lee Valley bevel up, low angle jack plane. I think one of these planes would come closer to fulfilling your needs than any other single plane.

My $.02

Hank

[Don C Peterson]

First time here on the neander side of the Creek and I need some help...

I've been items small enough to plane glued up panels on my jointer/planer, but no more!

I will glue up panels too wide for that and for the logical thing would be to use a hand plane.

However I'm confused exactly what plane I need!

Should I get a jack plane or a smoothing plane?
I've looked at both Lie-Nielsen no. 4 Smoothing Plane and Clifton's of similar size.
After looking more into the use for smoothing planes, it seems they are not designed to flatten panels after glue up, but - well the obvious I guess - smoothing the flattened panel before finishing.

So, do I need a jack plane AND a smoothing plane?

BTW: I'm all for the beautiful and high quality tools like Lie-Nielsen and Clifton, but what do I get for my money apart from the beautiful looks?
Will I get much better results and easier setup than by using e.g. a "normal" Stanley?

Wilbur's advice is solid, so for what you are specifically looking to do it sounds like you need a jack and a smoother.

As for your last question, no LN and LV planes won't perform significantly better than a well tuned vintage plane. What you do get is a live company that stands behind their tools and is ready to help and answer questions.

If those benefits-plus the knowledge that you are supporting a quality organization that is working to keep traditional woodworking methods alive-don't represent a value proposition for you, then buy vintage. The end result won't be any different, but I'll tell you that every time I pick up or even look at one of my LN planes or spokeshaves, I count the cost of initial purchase as a bargain...YMMV

I also have a fair collection of vintage hand tools (saws especially) and using them gives me a feeling of being connected to the tradition from whence they came.

Basically, you can't go wrong if you buy LN or LV, I don't know about Clifton. I've heard some reports of uneven quality control, and can't say one way or the other on their customer service. The vintage route has a few more pitfalls for the novice, but has its own rewards too.

Either way you decide to go, the most important thing you will need to learn is how to sharpen. But that is another subject altogether...

Welcome to the neander side of the slope!

[Jesse Cloud]

Ditto what Wilbur said, but Casey's right, too - a number 5 is a great place to start.

Also (and here I'm gonna save you some money) buy a card scraper and a burnisher and learn how to sharpen the scraper - great for getting the glue off and small ridges, great when freshly sharpened for smoothing wild grain.

[Katherine Bercaw]

Don't get the stanley. I did, I sharpened and honed the blade, tried it... and threw it back in the box because I couldn't get it to work right.

I then took a hand tools class where I learned how to tune it up & sharpen it (& chisels). I spent Saturday night and all day sunday tuning it. The next week we learned how to use the tools.

After all that work it was much better but not half as nice as the LN or LV planes the other people had. Since then I've gotten a better chip breaker and iron. It works well but still not as well as the others.

I got a discount at LN because I was taken Miller's class and I picked up a block plane and a shoulder plane. I honed the shoulder plane and started using it right out of the box.... works beautifully.

It's a very slippery slope and it's getting greased this weeked because of a demo :D

[Jim Koepke]

Don't get the stanley. I did, I sharpened and honed the blade, tried it... and threw it back in the box because I couldn't get it to work right.

Was this a new Stanley or an old one?

There is a big difference between those made before 1940 and those made after the 1970s.

jim

[Wiley Horne]

Hello Niels,

I notice you're in Europe, and this raises the question of where you're going to get your plane, and how much you will have to pay for it. I just checked Dieter Schmid's website for European pricing of Clifton, LV, and LN planes, and I think most Americans would be shocked at the difference between buying the plane here, and buying it in Europe.

If money matters to you, I would suggest the following options: (1) Have a friend bring an LV or LN plane back from the USA, or a Clifton from England, or (2) Buy an ECE wooden jack and smoother.

In my opinion and experience, the ECE woodies give great performance--and I mean top notch--and at a very reasonable price. You only have to be able to sharpen.

2 cents.

Wiley

[Katherine Bercaw]

Was this a new Stanley or an old one?

There is a big difference between those made before 1940 and those made after the 1970s.

jim


New - I bought it at Woodcraft and sharpened the blade.

After tuning & with the heavier chip breaker (Clifton) and blade it works really well.

I'm still learning (see my other thread) but it would have been a lot easier to learn with something that worked out of the box. As it was, I gave up and it sat for almost a year. Now that it's tuned and I know how to use it I really like the handplanes. And I adore my shoulder plane for triming rabbets to a tight fit.

[Niels J. Larsen]

Hello Niels,

I notice you're in Europe, and this raises the question of where you're going to get your plane, and how much you will have to pay for it. I just checked Dieter Schmid's website for European pricing of Clifton, LV, and LN planes, and I think most Americans would be shocked at the difference between buying the plane here, and buying it in Europe.

If money matters to you, I would suggest the following options: (1) Have a friend bring an LV or LN plane back from the USA, or a Clifton from England, or (2) Buy an ECE wooden jack and smoother.

In my opinion and experience, the ECE woodies give great performance--and I mean top notch--and at a very reasonable price. You only have to be able to sharpen.

2 cents.

Wiley

Hello Wiley,

Yes, there is indeed quite a price difference, but that is minimized after taxes which I will need to pay if I buy it from the US.
Then the price difference is just a bit more than the shipping, so it's somewhat equal.

Your point about considering wooden planes is right on, as I've thought about it myself and yes, the prices are very attractive compared to the L.N. or L.V.

However I like the ergonomics of the stanley-type planes with "proper" handles a lot more than the traditional european wooden planes.
I haven't handled the ECE planes, so maybe they've improved in that area, but I would hate to be disappointed.

As foreseen by another member in this thread I'm more confused now than I was when I posted my question :rolleyes:

Maybe I should try to find a used wooden plane and see if the ergonomics appeal to me or not...

Just a question: What are the differences - beside the obvious - between a wooden plane and metal plane?

Pros / Cons of both?

Some state that the wooden planes give a better finish than the metal ones - is this true?

[Michael Faurot]

Just a question: What are the differences - beside the obvious - between a wooden plane and metal plane?

Pros / Cons of both?


With traditional wooden planes you adjust the blade by learning how to tap on them with a small hammer. With a metal bodied plane, there's a knob and lever to adjust the depth of cut and the angle of the blade. I've learned how to adjust both, but I find the knob/lever arrangement a bit easier. I believe, with the wooden planes made by ECE, they've incorporated mechanical adjusters into their wooden body planes. I don't own, nor have I used any, so I can't comment on how well they work.

Metal planes can rust. Wooden planes can distort.

Metal planes are heavier. That can work to your advantage in some situations by having enough mass to work through difficult material. Wooden planes are lighter, which means they can be easier to push or pull. The lighter weight of a wooden plane also sometimes gives you a better feel for what's going on.

I may be mistaken on this point, but I think all (or most) metal bodied planes are pushed. Whereas there are wooden planes that are pushed and there are ones that are pulled.

As a woodworker, you can make your own wooden planes. You just need to buy a suitable blade and possibly a chip breaker. As a woodworker who either has no metal working skills or desire to work metal--you can't really make a metal bodied plane. :)

With metal bodied planes you have options like having the blade bedded at a low angle, bevel-up and having an adjustable mouth, or bevel down and an adjustable frog. I don't think there's a whole lot of low angle wooden planes out there. At least I've not seen any.




Some state that the wooden planes give a better finish than the metal ones - is this true?It's not really an either/or proposition, in my experience. Sometimes the metal plane works best for me, sometimes it's a wooden plane I've made myself. They both work well, it's mostly a matter of using the right one for the piece and type of wood.

[Mark Stutz]

Although I use metal bodied planes the vast majority of the time, I do have the ECE with the adjuster, and find it works very well. It is bedded at 50 deg. so works better for some applications. IIRC, that's what Frank Klausz uses in his drawer dovetailing video. If the jack and jointer work equally well, then they should serve you just fine.

Mark

[Wiley Horne]

Niels and all,

You asked about metal vs. wooden....The main difference for me is handled vs. unhandled. A handled plane is nice to use on larger surfaces where you're having to reach and then retrieve the plane--and if it's metal, it will be heavier and tend to stay in the cut without your off-hand on the plane. So if you're 'reaching' with the plane, a metal, handled plane is good to use. Now I would quickly add, a handled woodie with cambered blade--like a jack or fore plane--will hang in the cut fantastically due to the cambered blade, and these are the ideal planes for rough stock preparation--indeed they take the misery out of rough stock preparation and are very satisfying to use. A very favorite plane of mine is an 18" woodie fore plane (C&W).

An unhandled plane, like the ECE smoother for example (or an unhandled infill to take another example), really excels when you're doing work that you want your hands on top of. Especially if there is manuevering involved, like planing around a frame, or planing something narrow like the top edges of a drawer or the outer edges of a cabinet door. Also, on any case goods project, there are a zillion small sticks to be planed for the internal structure, and I just find it intuitive to use a unhandled plane and have my hands right over the work.

Unhandled is great for detailed work. Like planing inlay, banding, stringing, marquetry. Intuitively, I want my hands right over that work, and want some feedback from the plane as to where the blade is, and how it's cutting.

So in my mind, there are jobs that metal planes do best, and jobs that woodies do best. Overall, woodies are extremely flexible, and will do any job.

In all the above, I am describing work on temperate-latitude hardwoods, including figured hardwoods. However, the rosewoods (Dalbergia spp.) and the desert ironwoods of the world (of which Australia seems to have many!) are a different story, and there you want a heavy plane, in my opinion.

Wiley