"Black Mold" on Pine?

[Denny Wayman]

hello creekers

has anyone ever noticed a reaction when dimensioning rough cut pine? it has been air drying for appx. 2 years. alot of it is the blue denim pine(?). before milling it had what appeared to be black mold on it. i planed/jointed/ripped it the sunday before last and i'm still stopped up and hacking.

i can't figure out if i just have allergies or it was the lumber. any opinions/past experiences?

thanks in advance

denny (cough, cough....hack, hack)

[Hank Knight]

Denny,

A month ago I milled some rough cut pine that has been air drying for about 20 years. It has black mold and the finished stock has some bluish discoloration. I don't know if the mold is still active (probably not), but I had no respiratory difficulty from it. I don't know about where you live, but we're having really bad pollen this time of year and everybody I know is having respiratory difficulty.

Hank

[Denny Wayman]

I'm in so. Indiana and yes, the pollen count is pretty high here also. I'm working with the same lumber you describe. I figured my sickness was just coincidental timing but i'm gonna be working with more of this wood and i didn't want to just keep getting sicker.

[jason lambert]

I would sugest you get a AO safety pro mask with the small filters for wood and asbostose they are pretty comfortable. If at the very least you are sick it woun't irratate your airway more. It is not one thing that can cause iritation but the cumlitive effect of everything around you.

[Robert Strebler]

Mold is a touchy subject. Some people are allergic to mold spores and many people aren't. There is still no conclusive evidence as to how much damage mold does to a person, but more and more information is showing that it's not nearly as harmful to a person as was believed in the early 90s.

That being said, it's a good idea to err on the side of caution. If you have mold in your house, remove it. Don't bring visible mold indoors. If there is visible mold indoors, remove it.

Mold needs moisture and an organic food source (like wood or paper) to grow. It thrives in warmer temperatures.

If you have a moldy surface, it's probably not a good idea to bring it indoors. Especially if it's moist. To be safest, it would be a good idea to not use that wood. At the very least, cut off or clean off the affected wood outdoors and make sure it's dry before bringing it in.

Mold is everywhere. It's in the air we breathe, and on many surfaces. Mold spores are invisible. You can't get away from it completely.

To answer your question, your symptoms might be because of the mold and they might not. They could be another allergy or you could just be sick.

If the wood is dry, it's probably not throwing off mold spores.

In the future, an N95 mask at a minimum would be a good idea when dealing with moldy items. It's not a bad idea when working with wood anyway.

This is my semi-informed opinion so YMMV.

[Rick Levine]

I have the same problem here in New Mexico. My builder used pine as the underside of front porch of my shop and left me a load of it that was extra. It sat for a couple of months though some rain storms and wasn't properly stickered. The result was black/blue mold. I tried a special solution that was supposed to remove it but at $25 a gallon it would have taken several hundred dollars to clean all of it. Not worth it for pine. I gave up and will use it as is anyway.

I was told by a local saw mill that some people actually pay extra for the stuff because they like the look. It does have a kind of appealing appearance in some applications IMO.

[Sam Yerardi]

I once had to move out of my home for 10 months because of 'mold'. As some have pointed out here, there are no hard data on what effects different types of mold have on you, although without question there are some types that clearly are harmful. My family and I were the victims of fraud in our case. We were on vacation, and the dishwasher decided to spring a leak, flooding our kitchen. When we got back, the floor was flooded, and the room downstairs underneath was flooded also. We cleaned it all up and thought that was the end of it. A week later, the tile in our kitchen started popping up. A contractor friend suggested turning it into our insurance (a well-known 'reputable' company or so we thought, with 'full replacement value' coverage, or so we thought). Our contractor friend gave us a $7000 esitamte for taking out the old cabinets, replacing the floor, and putting the old cabinets back. We called them. The adjuster showed up one month to the day of our call. By that time, we had started developing mold. The adjuster said we didn't have that type of coverage but said they would repair the water damage. They then came back and said, ok, we'll take care of the mold, too. That's where the trouble started. They brought in two nationally-known 'cleaning' companies who both turned out to be fraudulent. Fraudulent in the sense that they take advantage of the fact that there are no laws or legislation governing 'remediation' of mold, so they know they are free to do whatever the insurance companies will pay for. They claim they follow the state of New York's policies on mold. Ten people in white tyvec suits and respirators showed up at our house and had my wife terrified that she was going to die because of the mold. She called me and told me they said it would take about 11 days to clean everything and restore the physical damage. We got a lawyer to make sure the insurance company upheld our contract with them which gave us full replacement value coverage. The 'cleaners' gutted our entire home (11 rooms when only 2 had a 'mold' problem). They even took the bath tub and my wife's antique silverware. Several months went by, we brought in a mediator between us and the insurance company, and proved to them that we and the insurance company was being taken to the 'cleaners'. The renovations on the house amounted to more then $250,000, and our hotel bill was more than $74,000. The insurance company paid all of it when it really only should have cost them $7000. What we learned is that most of the mold scare is a scam for insurance companies and unreputable 'cleaning' compnies to rip people off.

Bottom line - we learned mold is around us ALL the time. Some of it is bad, most of it isn't. The advice you got here about protecting yourself is good advice, but if someone tells you that you are in danger, question it. We had Marshall University come in and analyze the mold in our home while the 'work' was going on and what they found they said would be found in almost every house in the midwest - aspergillus. I could go on all day about the various fraudulent things that happened, but please be warry of mold 'experts' that tell you that you have a serious problem. They have a serious want for your money. And in our case, our silverware. And bath tub. I could on and on...

[Jim McCarty]

I once had to move out of my home for 10 months because of 'mold'. As some have pointed out here, there are no hard data on what effects different types of mold have on you, although without question there are some types that clearly are harmful. My family and I were the victims of fraud in our case. We were on vacation, and the dishwasher decided to spring a leak, flooding our kitchen. When we got back, the floor was flooded, and the room downstairs underneath was flooded also. We cleaned it all up and thought that was the end of it. A week later, the tile in our kitchen started popping up. A contractor friend suggested turning it into our insurance (a well-known 'reputable' company or so we thought, with 'full replacement value' coverage, or so we thought). Our contractor friend gave us a $7000 esitamte for taking out the old cabinets, replacing the floor, and putting the old cabinets back. We called them. The adjuster showed up one month to the day of our call. By that time, we had started developing mold. The adjuster said we didn't have that type of coverage but said they would repair the water damage. They then came back and said, ok, we'll take care of the mold, too. That's where the trouble started. They brought in two nationally-known 'cleaning' companies who both turned out to be fraudulent. Fraudulent in the sense that they take advantage of the fact that there are no laws or legislation governing 'remediation' of mold, so they know they are free to do whatever the insurance companies will pay for. They claim they follow the state of New York's policies on mold. Ten people in white tyvec suits and respirators showed up at our house and had my wife terrified that she was going to die because of the mold. She called me and told me they said it would take about 11 days to clean everything and restore the physical damage. We got a lawyer to make sure the insurance company upheld our contract with them which gave us full replacement value coverage. The 'cleaners' gutted our entire home (11 rooms when only 2 had a 'mold' problem). They even took the bath tub and my wife's antique silverware. Several months went by, we brought in a mediator between us and the insurance company, and proved to them that we and the insurance company was being taken to the 'cleaners'. The renovations on the house amounted to more then $250,000, and our hotel bill was more than $74,000. The insurance company paid all of it when it really only should have cost them $7000. What we learned is that most of the mold scare is a scam for insurance companies and unreputable 'cleaning' compnies to rip people off.

Bottom line - we learned mold is around us ALL the time. Some of it is bad, most of it isn't. The advice you got here about protecting yourself is good advice, but if someone tells you that you are in danger, question it. We had Marshall University come in and analyze the mold in our home while the 'work' was going on and what they found they said would be found in almost every house in the midwest - aspergillus. I could go on all day about the various fraudulent things that happened, but please be warry of mold 'experts' that tell you that you have a serious problem. They have a serious want for your money. And in our case, our silverware. And bath tub. I could on and on...

My attorney friend says: "Mold is Gold". Seems that some lawyers call it the asbestos of the new millenium. Just my $.02.

[Robert Strebler]

Sam, sorry to hear about your mold problems.

As far as mold remediation costs go, they are ridiculous. As someone who is in an industry that does mold work (my company no longer does), I can tell you some of the reasons they are so high.

1. Litigation. In the early 90s, there was a surge in mold related lawsuits against builders, contractors, and homeowners. Insurance companies paid out some huge amounts.

2. Misinformation. Nobody knew the effects of mold on humans. Memory loss, disease, etc. were blamed on mold and the payouts from the lawsuits were huge.

3. As a result of 1 and 2, insurance for mold remediation work went through the roof. It's outrageous.

4. Because of the danger of lawsuits, extreme steps need to be taken when performing mold work. This is to prevent a future lawsuit which could sink most small companies in legal fees and damages. If mold returns, the homeowner is apt to sue the company that did prior mold remediation work. If a water problem re-occurs, mold is likely to occur even though it probably doesn't have anything to do with their previous work (if done properly), but they will almost always get sued.

5. To fully protect yourself, as a mold remediation provider, many in the industry advise the company to have an Industrial Hygienist that is not affiliated with their company in any way (not even a referral) do a pre-test and a post test of the mold work. This is for both parties protection. The IH is to write up a protocol for remediating the mold problem. This often costs about $3500 for these tests.

6. The company doing the work must follow the remediation protocol. Furthermore, the workers will follow measures to protect themselves from employee and client lawsuits such as putting the area under containment, placing it under negative air pressure, installing HEPA air scrubbers, using HEPA vacuums, wearing Tyvek suits, wearing full respirators, removing as many of the moldy items as possible (drywall, paneling, etc.) and then treating, sanding, and sealing studs and other items that can't be removed.

Most insurance companies no longer cover mold work or have a $5000 cap on it. This makes it a very expensive proposition to the insured because after the IH pre and post tests, this leaves about $1500 for the work which can't be done at that rate following established standards (NY Health, IICRC S520, etc.)

The measures are taken to prevent lawsuits on something that has given outrageous payouts.

Mold is just a touchy subject for most.

[jason lambert]

Similar storie. My friend had a large house he was selling, sold the house the house inspector found the black mold on the pine inthe attic. Was there from when the house was built 100 years ago never hurt anyone several familes lived there, was not flakey just dark wood.

At the end of the day he had to have all the wood removed and replaced, Huge job almost the whole roof.

[Sam Yerardi]

Robert,

As a result of everything we went through, I am thoroughly familiar with your points. In our case, we had several third party companies that were brought into the picture and some ended up siding with us (we never filed suit, we just did everything through our lawyer with letters to make sure we were protected). The insurance company brought in a PE (Professional Engineering) firm to 'evaluate' our home. Another case of fraud. The report they did was filled with pictures taken that supported the mold remediator's claim that our house had a water problem. It had thorough text descriptions of 'our' house. The only problem was, it wasn't our house. They mixed in photos of a house that DID have problems with ours. I took the mediator through the house and had him use the pictures as a guide. He had to legally and formally admit that the report was fraudulent. Another item - the 'remediator' asked a local plumbing outfit to rip out all of our plumbing so they could put all new plumbing in. They testified for us and said they refused to do that because there wasn't anything wrong. You mentioned positive air pressure. They ran an air compressor (huge device) at the cost of $5000 per week at our house. Supposed toi suck all the air out of the house and port it out through a large hose. The only problem was the hose remained in the house. So several weeks went by with the only result being a huge air system running for no reason (other than racking up more than $10,000 in billing). The study you mentioned was done by Marshall University's biological lab. Months after all of the destructive 'remediation' occured. I showed up at the mold remediator's business unannounced with a camera and discovered our bedroom mattress was stored in the MEN'S ROOM. And it wasn't as good as a gas station restroom. I came unglued and screamed, litterally screamed at them for probably 20 minutes with the insurance company there and the mediator sheepishly standing by (I called them just before I went so they couldn't forewarn them which they would have done). It was after this that the insruance company caved and agreed to pay for everything without question.

I realize this isn't the place in this forum for me to go on and on about this but like you've indicated 'mold' is a sore spot with me. And I have learned to HATE insurance companies and any company that claims to be a 'mold remediator'. A second company from another state was brought in and they were no better than the first two. Three companies total, all fraudulent. And it took our lawyer to get the insurance company to adhere to the contract we had with them. Insurance is a legal racket.

Sorry, guys. I'm finished :)

[Robert Strebler]

Sam, I'm sorry for your frustrations. I would be livid too. It sounds like you got taken for a ride by all parties involved.

My company used to do mold remediation work and everything we did was honest. We tried to do everything by the book and turned down a lot of work when people weren't willing to pay for an IH before and after the job and we weren't willing to cut corners. Despite the high cost of remediation work, it was a money losing endeavor and we opened ourselves up to the threat of major lawsuits.

Another weird mold story - one of the insurance carriers would not pick up our auto insurance because we did mold work and they were worried that we would have an accident while carrying mold damaged property.

[Sam Yerardi]

Robert,

I know there are a lot of reputable companies (such as your own) that do this type of work and I apologize for spouting off about it. This was a good example of how when a few things go wrong up front, a whole lot of things snowball behind it. I was just amazed at how many different people jumped on the bandwagon because they kknew the insuance would pay for it. Being an engineer myself, the PE in upstate Ohio was the one that really angered me. Our lawyer said had it went before a judge in a trial, the judge would have looked to see did the insurance company try to make you financially whole again - once that was established, then he would look to see was anyone on the insurance/cleaning side resonsible for punitive damages. He said more than likely, the judge woul rule in our favor, but I can tell you after living in hotel (a good one, fortunately) for 10 months it takes a greater toll on home & marriage as well so we didn't pursue anything further.