Freud or CMT Which router bits are better?

[Charlie T. Bear]

Freud or CMT Which router bits are better?

Who Makes Freud? Who Makes CMT? Or are they all Chinese?

[Joe Chritz]

I can't speak as to where they are actually produced but either will give you great service.

I haven't used the CMT bits but have used Freud bits (and blades) a lot, both shaper and router and am very happy with them.

Joe

[Michael Boyle]

I am sure you will be happy with bits from either of these brands. They are both good quality and well designed. The CMT and Freud bit that I own are all made in Italy. I do not believe CMT bits are produced anywhere but Italy, I do not know if that is the case with all of the Freud bits.

[Mark Singer]

Whiteside are very good!

[Johnny Fischer]

Refer to page 2 under General Woodworking & Power tools.
Thread posted under Router Bit Quality by Alex Grams.
Last entry by Scott Spencer. He was kind enough to dig this chart up for the forum readers.

**click here** (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=81449)

[Charlie T. Bear]

Thanks John that was very informative. Is Freud a Black and decker Brand?

[Charles McCracken]

Thanks John that was very informative. Is Freud a Black and decker Brand?

Hi Charlie,

Freud is most definitely NOT a B&D company. We are an Italian company and produce tools and tooling in our factories in Europe for markets worldwide. Our Router Bits, Saw Blades, Shaper Cutters and Carbide Forstner bits are produced in Italy, Power Tools in Spain and High Speed Steel Forstners in Austria. We are also one of the few tooling manufacturers who produces their own carbide.

Here's the main corporate site:
http://freud.it

And the US site:
http://freudtools.com

[glenn bradley]

I use Freuds and like them but have no experience with CMT. Whiteside beats them both in the bake-offs and I find them to be a great bit and a great value. Holbren offers free shipping and is a member here.

[JayStPeter]

I haven't use a lot of Freud. The few that I have are quite good, but had a 1/4" spiral bit break right out of the box. Even less action than the MLCS bit I had do similarly. The replacement Whiteside has been good. I only have a few CMT bits and they are quite good also, but haven't tried a 1/4" spiral bit from them (seems to be the real test in my shop :rolleyes:). Most of my bits are Whiteside and Infinity. The Infinity bits seem to be equal to the CMT and Freud bits, but they put them on sale pretty often and most of mine were 25-50% off. Whiteside seem to last just slightly longer.

[scott spencer]

Both are made in Italy AFAIK. My Freud, Infinity, and Whitesides are all premium bits priced roughly comparably to the CMTs, but my CMT bits have thinner carbide. That doesn't effect the cut, but it limits the number of resharpenings, their value, and leaves me with a mental block about buying other CMT bits unless I stumble into a super deal. Good bits with little advantage over their competition IMHO.

[Yun-Fong Loh]

I love my Freud bits almost as much as my Whiteside bits. I bought a couple of CMT bits from Amazon recently as backup because they were on sale but the workmanship on them was no where near that of Freud. This is only from visual inspection as I haven't used them yet so feel free to weigh my opinion accordingly.

[Travis Gauger]

I use both Frued and CMT bits and have had great luck and mishaps with both. I would judge them about the same. I use a lot of 1/2" upcut solid carbide spiral bits. I have had a few Frued's "let go" right out of the packages and never anything like that with the CMT's. Everytime I have had a frued do it I've been told that it has been used and not eligible for replacement under warranty. The first one that let go put a shard of Carbide about 1/2" long by 1/4" wide into the router fence. I needed to use a pliers to pry it out and it scared the "you know what" out of me. That one had never seen a single inch of cutting and let go. The last two to fly apart under speed had 2-3 feet of cutting before letting go. Again, scaring the crap out of me. Called Frued CS this last time and have just decided that I will not buy Frued bits anymore. Sooner or later one of those pieces are going to hit me and I'm not that big of a gambler for the price difference. The Frued 1/2" spirals are a little cheaper than the CMT's. Not just the safety side of it, but Frued just hasn't stood by their bits like I would expect. At $50 + dollars per bit and to have three of them go in the trash after such little or no cutting, it's just not good business to keep getting them.
I had a CMT issue to though. Nothing like the bit flying apart, but still an issue. I bought a CMT 5 piece kitchen set. Didn't open the box before I brought it home, but when I did, there was the drawer joint bit with no carbide on one whole cutting face. Called up CMT CS and got a new one two days later in the mail. they also sent a complimentary 1/8" round over bit for my troubles. Impressive to say the least.
Between the two, I haven't noticed any differences in life, cut performance, or the finish of the cut. My $.02 for what it's worth.
Travis

[Charles McCracken]

Travis,

I'm sorry to hear of your experience with Freud Customer Service. I don't know the details of the incidents but Freud is one of few manufacturers who warranty solid carbide bits and a failure due to a defect in materials or workmanship should be covered. The details of our warranty can be found here:
http://www.freudtools.com/t-warranty.aspx

Also, we have a great Technical Service Department that can evaluate the application and in some cases may direct you to a different bit or cutter. To contact them you can call (800) 334-4107 - option 3.

[David DeCristoforo]

There is an interesting "continuity string" starting with Freud and progressing through CMT, Jesada, and Infinity tools. Do a search for "Carlo Venditto" or "David Venditto" and you will find some fun reading. But asside from these, Whiteside's bits are fine quality as are Amana's. I have a lot of tooling from Nordic Saw and Tool (find them on the web) and their stuff is top quality though not as "spiffy" looking as tooling from some of the others.

[Peter Quinn]

Freud or CMT? Both good bits. Never had a problem with either. I find the Freud cope and stichk bits a bit limiting and have switched to Amana as their sets are more like mini shaper stacks, capable of producing a wider variety of door thickness with the same set up. The freuds performed fine and are probably a good deal for the money if you only intend to make the size door of which they are capable.

As far as the quality of Freuds spiral solid carbide upcuts, I would rate them as high quality industrial tooling. I have pushed them to the point I though sure they might give up and they have never failed me. I've used 1/2", 3/8" and 1/4" in different lengths. I am not familiar with their warranty as I have never needed it.

I am now also using Onsrud for solid carbide spirals as they have some that seem to grab and climb less than other brands.

[jason lambert]

I have both I use more CMT and perfer them. Just cut better for me but maybe it is perception not sure. I would say both are good though.

[Travis Gauger]

Travis,

I'm sorry to hear of your experience with Freud Customer Service. I don't know the details of the incidents but Freud is one of few manufacturers who warranty solid carbide bits and a failure due to a defect in materials or workmanship should be covered. The details of our warranty can be found here:
http://www.freudtools.com/t-warranty.aspx

Also, we have a great Technical Service Department that can evaluate the application and in some cases may direct you to a different bit or cutter. To contact them you can call (800) 334-4107 - option 3.


Charles,
Thanks for the info, I'm going to contact them again and see what can be resolved. I only have the one bit that failed last now. But I did keep all the pieces to it, just as a keepsake or something. Hopefully they fix it. I have had excellent results from the freud technical service guys, that's why I went to the solid Carbide Spirals in the first place. I never really pushed the issue with CS as my time is better spent in the shop than on the phone. I'll give em a call and report back the outcome. Thanks again.

[Raymond Fries]

Up until recently, I only purchased Freud bits and cannot speak for CMT. I have had a bad experience with one type of Freud bit which has made me not be so brand loyal and has made me look at other options.

Last fall, I purchased a Freud 3/8” two flute bit to make box joints using my Incra positioner. For a joint like this, you need precision stock removal. The joints came out really loose. The only way I could get a tight joint was if I moved the positioner .004" for each cut. Somehow, I was not prepared to build an extra 1/8” into the width for every 6” board I wanted to join. Anyway, I took the bit to my day job and one of our machinists checked it with a Starrett dial indicator and discovered that one flute was .002" further away from center than the other. I exchanged it and the second bit was the same way. Wanting to get on with the Christmas gifts, I decided to get a refund and try Whiteside. Bingo, a perfect slot.

I did speak with a Freud representative who told me that their machining process would not allow this to happen. I do understand what he said but I saw measurements with the dial indicator myself and I do not believe that a Starrett measuring device could be off by .002". It is a mystery.

Anyway, I am happy with the rest of the Freud bits I own, but since this incident, I have only purchased Whiteside and Southwest Tool bits which were actually rated higher in a router bit review that I found. I am starting to like the look of different colors on the bit rack. One of these days I mighton try the CMT Orange. Many people do like them.

All my hopes for only good bits in your search.

[Travis Gauger]

Charles,
Thanks for the info, I'm going to contact them again and see what can be resolved. I only have the one bit that failed last now. But I did keep all the pieces to it, just as a keepsake or something. Hopefully they fix it. I have had excellent results from the freud technical service guys, that's why I went to the solid Carbide Spirals in the first place. I never really pushed the issue with CS as my time is better spent in the shop than on the phone. I'll give em a call and report back the outcome. Thanks again.


Ahh, Customer service. They just put the icing on the cake for me. I bet that Freud has thousands of employees all over the world all working to get us to buy their product. Then you deal with one person who wipes out all that effort in 5 minutes.
Called up Freud CS last night and explained the situation again, First question from them was if the bit was used. Yes it was, about 2-3 feet of cutting a 1/2" X 1/2" dado in red oak. Conversation was over at that point and I not only ate the cost of the bit, but also more of my precious shop time. Now I know what bit's to buy in the future.

[Charles McCracken]

Travis and All,

At Freud, customer satisfaction is key. If a customer calls with a warranty concern regarding a cutting tool they are asked if the tools has been sharpened because if it has the warranty is no longer valid. We assume the product has been used unless told otherwise. We rarely try to diagnose the problem over the phone and instead offer to accept the item for warranty evaluation. We try to give the customer the benefit of any doubt and in most cases we replace the returned item with a new one. I don't have an explanation for the experiences that Travis has described but if he will provide me with the name of the person with whom he spoke I will make sure it does not happen again. And if he will return his bit to my attention I will be happy to walk it through the return process myself. The address is:

Freud America, Inc.
Attn: Charles McCracken
218 Feld Ave.
High Point, NC 27263

[Travis Gauger]

Travis and All,

At Freud, customer satisfaction is key. If a customer calls with a warranty concern regarding a cutting tool they are asked if the tools has been sharpened because if it has the warranty is no longer valid. We assume the product has been used unless told otherwise. We rarely try to diagnose the problem over the phone and instead offer to accept the item for warranty evaluation. We try to give the customer the benefit of any doubt and in most cases we replace the returned item with a new one. I don't have an explanation for the experiences that Travis has described but if he will provide me with the name of the person with whom he spoke I will make sure it does not happen again. And if he will return his bit to my attention I will be happy to walk it through the return process myself. The address is:

Freud America, Inc.
Attn: Charles McCracken
218 Feld Ave.
High Point, NC 27263


Charles,
Thanks so much. I will mail the bit I have left to you tomorrow first thing. The bit was never sharpened and I wasn't asked if it had been. I don't know the name of the person that I spoke with the other day but he was polite.
Funny thing about Freud is that everytime I need a very specific bit, Frued is the only one with it stocked in the display. Last night I'm out trying to find a 8* X 1/2" dovetail bit. The only brand in stock is Freud. OK, so Freud it is.
I want you to know that I am in no way knocking the freud bits. In fact after this post has been going on I was looking through all the bits I have and the majority of them are freud. All my blades are freud. In fact, the only blade that I will run in my saws are freud's. I go through those carbide spiral bits like they are going out of style though. What gives? After a lot of thought, I'm wondering if it isn't something that I'm doing. I would think that if this was that common of an issue I'd have heard about it. Every time I tell someone about the bits self destructing they are shocked and have never heard of such a thing. I've had three of these fly apart on me now. Make me think that there may be some operator influences going on. Have you heard of other people having similar issues. I won't lie and say that I'm easy on my tools. Cause I'm not. I've burned out three router motors over the past year from pushing them too hard. These bits are failing though right away. Not after a weeks worth of abuse.

[Charles McCracken]

Travis,

Carbide is a very brittle material and will not flex. If you run a 1/2" diameter carbide tipped bit under heavy load the steel body will flex, produce a high pitched whine and chatter. If the load is continued it will eventually fatigue and break. A comparable solid carbide bit will just whine for a few seconds and then shatter. So it is important to not overfeed bits, especially the solids. If the bit whines and fails it is likely either the bit is not matched to the application, it is trying to remove too much material or is being feed too rapidly. If you tell me more about the application I can help with all of those.

[Ron Bontz]

Well if I may put in my penny's worth. I have broken a few bits myself over the years. Whether it is a defect in the carbide, steel, or my over zealous feeding rate and depth of cut who knows. Probably most of the above. I am glad though they were embedded in the wood and not me.:eek:They were different brands and none of them were covered because of use of course. I did find on the straight bits if I took the bit diameter and divided by two that would be my choice for depth increments. I adjust my 1/2" dia. bit to cut 1/4" deep at a time creating less stress on the cutter and giving me a nicer finished cut/dado. I found that I also sometimes speed up my feed rate without really thinking about it. Watch out for those Mozart concertos.:D I have been quite happy with my Freud bits but also use Whiteside, CMT, Jesada,Bosch, and a few of those "you know" throw away bits. If I hear chatter I back off and let the cutters do their job Or decrease the depth. Better to slow down at the router table than to spend extra time and money cutting a new dado etc. in a new piece of wood. I also use solid carbide spiral bits from time to time. Pricey but nice. Yep I broke one of those too. 1/8th" bit cutting a 1/8th" slot. BTW there is a company out there that sharpens freud bits as well as others and does an excellent job. Best of luck.

[Travis Gauger]

Travis,

Carbide is a very brittle material and will not flex. If you run a 1/2" diameter carbide tipped bit under heavy load the steel body will flex, produce a high pitched whine and chatter. If the load is continued it will eventually fatigue and break. A comparable solid carbide bit will just whine for a few seconds and then shatter. So it is important to not overfeed bits, especially the solids. If the bit whines and fails it is likely either the bit is not matched to the application, it is trying to remove too much material or is being feed too rapidly. If you tell me more about the application I can help with all of those.


Hi there Charles. I really appreciate all the assistance your giving. So here's a little about my setup and use. I have a makita 1101 2 1/4HP router mounted in a jess em master lift in a wing of my Table saw. I ussually keep a 1/2" spiral upcut bit in there all the time. If I need a 3/4" dado I make two passes. I use the upcut because my DC for the router is from the bottom of the table. I build a lot of cabinets and bookshelves. I run a lot of dados and rabits for these. Most all the material that I use is MDF cored plywood. Cherry, Walnut, oak, etc, veneer. I do take a 1/2" wide by 3/8" cut at 1 time. I only ever lower the bit when I'm going into hardwood or actually require less depth in the dado. Most of the time I am running 3/4" dado's and take two passes. The first pass removes 1/2 X 3/8 material. The second pass takes 1/4X3/8. I always adjust the fence towards the bit when setting up the second cut to avoid back or climb cutting. I don't hear any chatter or whine while routing. The bit that I just sent to you was cutting the second pass as described above into a cherry veneered MDF core plywood. Made it about 2-3' through before letting go. The piece that broke off was about 1/4" by about 1" long down the length of the bit. Where it failed looked like it followed one of the machining "Flutes" or ridges. the portion that broke off anded up getting caught between the remainder of the bit and the workpiece before going through the DC. I had just emptied the DC and installed the new bit so it was easy enough to get the piece the broke off. When I made the first pass on the above described dado it had quite a bit of tearout. That's why I changed bits. That one had been in there for a week or so and got pulled out and tossed. I had tried to have them sharpened and they just don't cut the same. $50 or so for a new bit versus saving $20 by having an old bit sharpened and then letting it destroy $100 worth of plywood is a no brainer for me. They go right into the round file when they start to cut poorly. I often can't get the MDF cored ply I like and have to get the veneered core stuff. In cases like this I set it up to only remove about a 1/4" of depth at a pop. Let me know what I'm doing wrong or if you need other information. I am fairly confident in my setup and use. If for no other reason than all the other bits have held up fine. I have had three failures out of a maybe a hundred bits or so. I just think that if I was that far off on my technique there would be more failures. Thanks for all your time on this.

[Gary Price]

Does Freud manufacturer CMT products? It looks like CMT is an American company based out of Greenville SC. Am I wrong with this assumption? Also the markings on my Freud match the CMT. If they are not made at the same plant the the two plants use the same fonts. Without a shadow of a doubt most whiteside router bits are better. In fact shipping from whiteside may even be faster.

[Tony Joyce]

Does Freud manufacturer CMT products? It looks like CMT is an American company based out of Greenville SC. Am I wrong with this assumption? Also the markings on my Freud match the CMT. If they are not made at the same plant the the two plants use the same fonts. Without a shadow of a doubt most whiteside router bits are better. In fact shipping from whiteside may even be faster.

Freud and CMT are two separate companies, both with manufacturing facilities based in Italy. Freud has been in the US much longer than CMT. CMT US headquarters is in Greensboro, NC and Freud US headquarters is in High Point, NC. Both facilities are for sales and distribution.

BTW, this thread is six years old.

Tony

[Barry Richardson]

I've used both and like both but lean a bit toward Freud, fresh out of the box nothing compares to the silky surface they leave IMO. One direct comparison I can make: I use a 5/8 v groove bit a lot for a particular operation in my shop. My Freud had a lot of miles on it so I bought a new one, CMT. The CMT is a poor design wherein one of the cutters doesn't extend all the way to the tip, and it leaves a lot of fuzz and burning at the bottom of the V, very disappointed with it, pulled out the old Freud and it performs much better than the new CMT....

[Tom Walz]

Both were rated "Good" by Fine Woodworking. However the best tool is the one that works best for you.


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