Rail and stile joint won't close

[Jay Bruckner]

Okay, I really don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'm trying to make raised panels for a cabinet in white oak. I have a raised panel set from Woodline, for which I paid a fortune. The problem is that after I route everything really nice and go to test the joint by putting the cope into the rail, there's always like a 1/32" to 1/16" gap in there right at the face. Even after I apply clamping pressure, the joint won't close. I've inspected it very closely, and have determined that it's because of the ogee profiles not fitting together. (See the attached picture; it's like that, but the ogee's are actually touching, as far as I can see).

I know that I'm cutting the full depth of the profile because I can see the bearing stop spinning on the router bit when the piece comes in contact with it. My cope and rail bits are matched for height, and I have a rubber grommet inside of my router, so I just place them in and let them bottom out, so I don't think it's a height adjustment issue.
What should I do?

[Dave Bureau]

According to some stile and rail fine tuning tips that i have, the attachment you show indicates that the stock is not contacting the bearing. You say it is, so I dont know what to tell you. maybe the bearing is not the right size. or you need a shim.
Dave

[David Duke]

When cutting the profile/cope on your rail/stiles the bit height adjustment really has no bearing on whether or not the two pieces will shoulder out, height only affects the alignment of the faces.

I'm assuming you have a matched set of rail/stile bits if you are positive that the milled pieces are bottoming out to the bearing "completly through the cut" then there can only be two things prevent your joint from coming together tight, (1) debris or a burr left on the cut especially the cope cut, is preventing the joint from coming together, or (2) you bits aren't a true "matched set", thus the profiles don't align with each other properly preventing complete joint closure. If you are using an adjustable bit you may need to look at the shim placement, you may have the groove/tongue shimmed differently between the two cuts causing the cope cut to "pinch" on the profile cut.

[mike holden]

OK, first heights are a non issue, the two parts should mesh, but not be flush if the heights are wrong.
Dave is on the right track, I think, looking at the picture, there needs to be a spacer between the ogee and the tenon. If your bits come apart, add a spacer there and see if that helps.
If your bits do not come apart (mine don't), then they are mis-machined and should be replaced. send in a sample of the defective joint with the bits so they can see the error.
Good Luck!
Mike

[Tim Malyszko]

I had the same issue with a Woodcraft brand set. The rail and stile router bits weren't a perfect set. While it was significantly cheaper than an equivalent Freud or Whiteside set, it made me so frustrated that I decided never to buy a budget set of bits again.

[Charles McCracken]

Jay,

Your picture indicates that the shimming is incorrect on the stile bit. You need to remove shim(s) from between the cutters to reduce the height of the profile so it will fit into the cope. No way to do it but by trial and error (unless you have an optical comparator).

[Paul Greathouse]

I would bet on a mismatched set also but one other remote possibility is if the rails and stiles are not jointed properly (The sides are not 90 degrees to their face) before the profile is run. This could throw the profile off slightly.

[Johnny Fischer]

Jay,
I, like anybody else hate to throw away our hard earned money.
When it comes to router bits, cutters, saw blades, etc., do yourself a favor. Buy quality. It will save you from alot of aggravation and wasted wood.
There is a company in Tampa, Florida by the name of InfinityTools.com which sells high quality bits, cutters, etc and are very reasonably priced. Their quality is equal to Whiteside and the rest of the high dollar companies.
Just about every bit and cutter in my shop is from this company and they perform amazingly. Not to mention they have 5 star customer service rating.
Buy something from this company and try it out. I promise you wont regret it.
Good luck

[Bob Wingard]

Woodline bits carry a lifetime warranty .. .. .. use it. They are best suited to answer your questions and make amends. If the set is not adjustable via shims, there is a mismatch, and they will replace it. They are a very aggressive company, and are becoming a major player in this market, but anyone can make a mistake .. give them an opportunity to satisfy you.

[Richard M. Wolfe]

Like Bob said, deal with Woodline. I have used their bits for years and while they may not be the top of the line I haven't had any problems. They are good people to deal with so if you would call them and explain the problem they will probably resolve it one way or another - what to do, replacing bit, etc.

[David DeCristoforo]

Charles is correct. The cutter set is not shimmed correctly. However, this would only apply to bits with "loose" cutters. If the set has "one piece" cutters, these cannot be shimmed. In your sketch, the coped profile cutter needs to be raised a bit in relation to the other cutters in the "stack".

Bagwan Rahsneesh

[Charles McCracken]

...the coped profile cutter needs to be raised a bit in relation to the other cutters in the "stack".


You are correct that it appears the cope needs to be raised, however the cope height is fixed so it has to be adjusted by lowering the profile on the stile bit instead. Likewise, the groove width is fixed so if the tenon is too tight its thickness must be adjusted by changing the shimming of the cope bit.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...however the cope height is fixed so it has to be adjusted by..."

Sorry... I'm used to shaper cutter sets where you can put shims anywhere. Well, almost anywhere...

:)
Phil O'Dendron

[Charles McCracken]

"...however the cope height is fixed so it has to be adjusted by..."

Sorry... I'm used to shaper cutter sets where you can put shims anywhere. Well, almost anywhere...

:)
Phil O'Dendron

The same should be true for shaper cutters as well. As you can see in the image below, the cope is a fixed shape, as is the groove. To adjust the fit of the profile in the cope you add or remove shims from between the cutters in the profile stack (left). To adjust the fit of the tenon in the groove you change the shimming of the cope stack (right).

http://www.freudtools.com/images/product/21.jpg

[David DeCristoforo]

"...in the image below..."

Can you re-link the image?

Phil Osophy

[Tim Lynch]

Thanks for that Charles. I just set up and used my EC261 set a couple weeks ago for the first time and had a pile of shims to sort out. Trial and error when mounting and unmounting stacked shaper cutters is not a lot of fun.

My set came with no documentation, nor is there any at the Freud website that I could find. Your description is helpful and would have given me at least a starting point to try to wrap my brain around the set up procedure. Maybe it could be added to your website?

By the way, the resulting cuts were fantastic in rift-sawn white oak. It is a very nice set.

[Charles McCracken]

"...in the image below..."

Can you re-link the image?

Phil Osophy

It came from here:
http://www.freudtools.com/p-367-34-stock-male-female-cabinet-door-cutter-sets-roman-ogee.aspx

[Charles McCracken]

Thanks for that Charles. I just set up and used my EC261 set a couple weeks ago for the first time and had a pile of shims to sort out. Trial and error when mounting and unmounting stacked shaper cutters is not a lot of fun.

My set came with no documentation, nor is there any at the Freud website that I could find. Your description is helpful and would have given me at least a starting point to try to wrap my brain around the set up procedure. Maybe it could be added to your website?

By the way, the resulting cuts were fantastic in rift-sawn white oak. It is a very nice set.

I'll pass the request for better instructions. Sorry for any confusion.

[David DeCristoforo]

Scheech... you would think that after 35 years I should be able to explain how to shim cope and stick cutters! I'm still confused because the cutters in your image are "two piece" cutter stacks and all of mine are "3 piece" stacks.

DD

[Jay Bruckner]

Wow, thanks for all the replies.

Okay, I think my bits are able to be shimmed. There's a screw and a nut on top. However, I didn't get any shims or documentation about them with the set at all. Should I go to Rockler or woodcraft and get some shims? Do they even sell those?

Edit: I just looked at the Woodline website and they don't even sell shims. Doesn't that imply that the damn thing should have been set up correctly when I got it?

These (http://www.woodline.com/p-1368-2pc-rail-stile-cutter-cove-bead-12-shank.aspx) are the bits I have, except they're the roman ogee profile. Otherwise they're identical.

[Charles McCracken]

Scheech... you would think that after 35 years I should be able to explain how to shim cope and stick cutters! I'm still confused because the cutters in your image are "two piece" cutter stacks and all of mine are "3 piece" stacks.

DD

If you mean like the ones below there should be no shimming necessary between the middle and lower cutter. If you consider the lower two as one cutter the info I posted earlier will apply the same way.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41734Y9TW6L._SS400_.jpg

[Kyle Kraft]

Jay,

Thanks for posting this puzzling question. I am having the same problem with my roundover shaper cutters, with an additional twist that I believe to be a mis-match issue. The tongue is bottoming out in the groove before the profiles contact. I talked to the folks at Nordic Tool and they can analyze the problems if you send them the cutters and a sample of the screwed up workpieces.

Funding issues have prevented me from pursuing this problem with them. Has a bit to do with keeping keeping the tank full so I can go to work to earn money to keep the tank full:).

[Charles McCracken]

Kyle,

Depending on how the cutters are designed you might be able to try making sample cuts that you know are too deep to be sure you have full depth of cut for both parts.

[JayStPeter]

As recommended, call woodline! I had the same problem with my doormaking bits from them and they took care of me. They will send you the instructions. The shims are already on the bits. Call them.

[Jay Bruckner]

Now that I'm home from work, I played with the bits a little more. I'm absolutely positive that I'm cutting the full depth of the profile. The problem is that the rail ogee is bigger than the cope's ogee. Only by like a 64th, but it makes a gap on the face.

I'm going to call woodline tomorrow.

[Jay Bruckner]

Well, I talked to Woodline, and it was a defective bit set. They're sending me out a new set, no questions asked. Here's the email exchange I had with Wayne.

From: Woodline Sales [mailto:sales@woodline.com]
> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:04 PM
> To: Woodline Sales
> Subject: Defective bits?
>
> Name=Jay Bruckner
> Phone=xxxxxxx
> EMail=xxxxxxx
> Subject=Defective bits?
> S1=Dear Woodline, I'm writing to report what I think
> is a defective bit set. I bought the Roman Ogee
> raised panel cabinet set from your booth at the
> woodworking show in Houston, Texas last year and
> only recently got a chance to use it. Unless I'm
> doing something wrong, the cope cuts at the ends of
> my rails are not fitting into the cuts in my stiles.
> There is a consistent 1/32" space between the face
> of the rail and the face of the stile. I thought at
> first I was getting this gap because I wasn't
> cutting deep enough, but I checked with a micrometer
> and both cuts are precisely 3/8" deep. After
> wracking my brain for days trying to determine what
> is wrong, I believe the problem is that the stile
> ogee is a tiny bit larger than the cope ogee. I have
> a photograph to illustrate the situation, which I
> could send you if it would help. I'm just very
> disappointed in these bits. I have really struggled
> to get this cabinet to work, but can only get the
> pieces to fit together properly by cutting the
> stiles twice so that the ogee is narrower. Is there
> anything you can see that I might be doing wrong? I
> know that I'm cutting the full depth of the profile,
> and I know the pieces are perfectly square and are
> the same thickness (though the thickness doesn't
> really matter with respect to this problem). I
> really believe the problem lies in the bits. Perhaps
> a shim would help? Maybe a larger diameter bearing
> on the stile cutter? I'm not sure, but I'm open to
> suggestions. Thank you for your help. Jay Bruckner

--- Wayne <wayne@woodline.com> wrote:
> It is rare but the problems has been seen before.
> You have a bid grind on the rail and stile set. This
> sometime occurs when machine change over happens and
> the workers do not calibrate the depth and diameters
> correctly. We will of course replace the set
> instantly. Please contact us for a warranty
> replacement of the rail and stile set.
>
> Wayne Sutter
> Woodline USA

From: Jay Bruckner
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 5:52 PM
To: Wayne
Subject: RE: Defective bits?
Hello Wayne. Thank you for explaining the problem. I
had no idea what was wrong.
How do I go about sending the bits back to you?
If it helps, my address is:
xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx
My phone number is xxxxxxx
Thanks.

It is not necessary to retunr them. I have authorized a direct
replacement under warranty. We will be shipping a WL 1360 rail and stile set to
you today at the address below. Please accept our appology for the
problem. Please discard the other bits as they can not be fixed.
Wayne Sutter
Woodline USA

Sales: Please ship a WL 1360 to the customer as a warranty
replacement.
I'm very happy with how woodline handled the issue. They couldn't have done better.

[Jay Bruckner]

Crap. I posted this once, but it's showing up as a reply halfway up the thread. I want it to show here at the end, as the final resolution to the problem, so I'm posting again.

Well, I talked to Woodline, and it was a defective bit set. They're sending me out a new set, no questions asked. Here's the email exchange I had with Wayne.

From: Woodline Sales [mailto:sales@woodline.com]
> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:04 PM
> To: Woodline Sales
> Subject: Defective bits?
>
> Name=Jay Bruckner
> Phone=xxxxxxx
> EMail=xxxxxxx
> Subject=Defective bits?
> S1=Dear Woodline, I'm writing to report what I think
> is a defective bit set. I bought the Roman Ogee
> raised panel cabinet set from your booth at the
> woodworking show in Houston, Texas last year and
> only recently got a chance to use it. Unless I'm
> doing something wrong, the cope cuts at the ends of
> my rails are not fitting into the cuts in my stiles.
> There is a consistent 1/32" space between the face
> of the rail and the face of the stile. I thought at
> first I was getting this gap because I wasn't
> cutting deep enough, but I checked with a micrometer
> and both cuts are precisely 3/8" deep. After
> wracking my brain for days trying to determine what
> is wrong, I believe the problem is that the stile
> ogee is a tiny bit larger than the cope ogee. I have
> a photograph to illustrate the situation, which I
> could send you if it would help. I'm just very
> disappointed in these bits. I have really struggled
> to get this cabinet to work, but can only get the
> pieces to fit together properly by cutting the
> stiles twice so that the ogee is narrower. Is there
> anything you can see that I might be doing wrong? I
> know that I'm cutting the full depth of the profile,
> and I know the pieces are perfectly square and are
> the same thickness (though the thickness doesn't
> really matter with respect to this problem). I
> really believe the problem lies in the bits. Perhaps
> a shim would help? Maybe a larger diameter bearing
> on the stile cutter? I'm not sure, but I'm open to
> suggestions. Thank you for your help. Jay Bruckner

--- Wayne <wayne@woodline.com> wrote:
> It is rare but the problems has been seen before.
> You have a bid grind on the rail and stile set. This
> sometime occurs when machine change over happens and
> the workers do not calibrate the depth and diameters
> correctly. We will of course replace the set
> instantly. Please contact us for a warranty
> replacement of the rail and stile set.
>
> Wayne Sutter
> Woodline USA

From: Jay Bruckner
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 5:52 PM
To: Wayne
Subject: RE: Defective bits?
Hello Wayne. Thank you for explaining the problem. I
had no idea what was wrong.
How do I go about sending the bits back to you?
If it helps, my address is:
xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx
My phone number is xxxxxxx
Thanks.

It is not necessary to retunr them. I have authorized a direct
replacement under warranty. We will be shipping a WL 1360 rail and stile set to
you today at the address below. Please accept our appology for the
problem. Please discard the other bits as they can not be fixed.
Wayne Sutter
Woodline USA

Sales: Please ship a WL 1360 to the customer as a warranty
replacement.
I'm very happy with how woodline handled the issue. They couldn't have done better.

[Joe Chritz]

Not having defective parts is one part, how a company handles one that slips through is another major part.

Sounds like they did the right thing.

I won't have any problems purchasing from them if the opportunity shows itself.

I'm glad it worked out for you and thanks for posting.

Joe