Wasting my Money!!!

[Fred Haydon]

My oldest want to be an Architect. She picked her college, laid out her plan of attack and is currently in her second term. She came home this weekend so I could help her with her drafting project. There were some 'things' that she needed clarification on and she wanted to spend time with her little sibs.

When we set down to go over her project, I found the assignment instructions and associated drawings to be incomplete, contradictory and in spots, vague at best!! While I'm not an Architect, I have has 6 years of drafting between tech school and undergrad work. And I still spend plenty of time at the table working up drawings for clients and bids. If this instructor submitted drawings like this to me for a bid, I'd hand 'em back and ask her to not waste my time again.

I realize that the public schools are short changing our children, but when I'm paying $16,500 a year in tuition and my daughter is shortchanged, I'm ready to spit nails!!!!

Anyway, my daughter has a better understanding of the finer points of drafting and a clearer understanding that when you do a set of drawings, they should be done in such a manner that anyone can understand them.

Yes, I will be writing a letter stating my concerns to the instructor AND the department head, as both a parent and as a professional, but I will refrain from doing this until after the end of the term (2 1/2 weeks).

Thanks for reading. Don't know that I feel much better, but the wisdom of this forum will a least give me different views that will make me think.

Cheers,
Fred

[Stephen Beckham]

Fred - like the Avatar!

On the subject, I'm with you. I've seen it so many times on the HS level that it doesn't matter the content anymore, but it's important for the kids to learn to learn. What????

So you waive off your imcomepetence as a planned mistake to see if the kids catch it?

Please - our kids are confused enough these days... Let's leave it up to MTV to confuse them and let the schools educate them!

Steve

[Glenn Clabo]

Fred,
From lessons learned...and from two points of view. A parent...and the husband of a professor/department head.

As a father...Yes it's your money...but that's your choice. The college is giving your daughter the education. She needs to understand that she should be the one who is being confused and short changed. She needs to show the confusions to the instructor and let he/she explain...not you. I learned this very quickly when my daughter was in school. There are sometimes reasons that my " vast experience but lack of specific education" didn't make me right. One of the biggest things higher education is required to do is make students aware that their parents aren't going to be there to fight all their battles.

Now as a spouse of a professor/department head...Your complaint will not mean as much as your daughters. In fact...if you try to discuss this with the college your daughter will have to sign a waiver to let you. Again...it may be your money...but it's your daughters education. Sometimes instructors actually try to make things more difficult to see what students do. And sometimes they actually make mistakes. But again...it's her resposibility to speak up.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to be upset...I'm just saying...from a parent who has had time to reflect...you may want to let her fight her own battles. In the long run...it's best for her.

[Russ Filtz]

The assignment was probably worked up by a grad student with no real world experience! Then the instructor was too busy on administration imposed research quotas or outside consulting gigs to review it!

[Matt Meiser]

Fred, while it is really tempting, I would suggest that you encourage her to go to the instructor rather than doing it yourself. One of the things that engineering, and I assume architecture since its a related discipline, students need to learn is problem solving. We don't always get good information from the client. Also, if she is in her first year, stuff is going to be simplified. She has another 5 years (isn't architecture a 6-year program now?) and stuff will get increasingly more complex and real. Then she'll get into the real world and have to learn to do things the real way where the problems aren't nicely planned.


The assignment was probably worked up by a grad student with no real world experience! Then the instructor was too busy on administration imposed research quotas or outside consulting gigs to review it!

Sounds like a large Michigan university (not the blue and gold one) I spent one year at before leaving for a small private college, which a) actually cost my parents less cash each year due to the amount of financial aid I got and b) gave me an immensely better education. At the large university I was told by the secretary of the professor who's name showed up in the course catalog that he was to busy to meet with students other than 2 scheduled hours per week. At the small college, many professors gave out their home phone numbers.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Find five alternate schools and send these concerns to them (to the dept. heads). Ask each for three sim. assignments.

Go to the schools' bookstores and see if they use better text books, more current, etc. Do some basic research...

Maybe some of the other teachers will be better equipt next term.

[Joe Pelonio]

Glenn and Matt are right, once at the college level we can help them with assignments, and suggestions for attacking problems, but my experience with 3 kids having been in college is that the teachers and administration will not even talk to parents. It's actually a privacy thing, you cannot even see your own kids grades unless they choose to show it to you themselves, regardless of how much you may be paying for their tuition.

[Jim Becker]

I'm with you on the disappointment, but with Matt and Glen on the topic of who needs to complain. Your guidance to your daughter is more valuable to her when she can use it to step up and work things out with the instructor and the school. And, as stated, she's the "customer" and a legal adult, and despite the fact that you are paying, they very well may not accept it coming from you.

[Pat Germain]

Geez, it seems more and more schools are becoming just athletic clubs and diploma mills.

Ditto on the comments that what Dad says doesn't matter to a university. In my son's Freshman Orientation the Dean told us it's time to stop being helicopter parents. Of course, many parents insisted on staying in helicopter mode. I never was a helicopter parent. I encouraged my kids to solve problems on their own whenever possible.

I'm not suggesting you're being a helicopter parent, Fred. But the faculty might just lump you in with the helicopter parents and ignore you.

[Fred Haydon]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the input thus far. Now that I'm a little more calm, a little background.

Wife = PS Teacher
FIL = Professor Emeritus and Former Dept. Head

He and I have many long discussions regarding how to handle this. We have been advising my daughter on how to go about handling this and she has had conversations with the (nontenured) instructor (and documented these as well). Unfortunately this isn't a recent problem, this has been going on for most of the term. She is extremely frustrated with the whole situation and has basically written off the class as a loss academically, but has learned a number of life lessons from it.

Knew about the school-not-talking-to-parents thing from FIL. Daughter agreed that since M&D were footing the bill, she would fill out all the appropriate forms so that we could talk to the school regarding any matter. However, as I am not, nor want to be, a helicopter parent, I/we haven't used that avenue...yet.

It's an out-of-state school with an avg. 15:1 faculty/student ratio with TA/GAs only used in the gen studies classes. Overall, I'm happy with the education she's receiving, but this is a foundation class for her career and thus the frustration. With the exception of one CAD class, all of the design classes are paper & pencil. This was part of the draw (no pun intended) for her to this school.

This situation is like an ancient riddle that has no answer. I certainly do appreciate the input from all of you, it's just the futility of the whole durn thing.

Once a Dad, always a Dad is both a blessing and a curse because we care.

Cheers,
Fred

[Scott Donley]

Once a Dad, always a Dad is both a blessing and a curse because we care.

Cheers,
Fred
This should be sent to all our kids in school, if I had only known, there really should be a handbook included with every birth of a child :D

[Matt Meiser]

Fred, as I mentioned, I went to a small college. If her school is like my school, the end of term evaluations are read and taken seriously by both professors and the administration. She should be open and honest when filling it out.

[Greg Cole]

Fred, as I mentioned, I went to a small college. If her school is like my school, the end of term evaluations are read and taken seriously by both professors and the administration. She should be open and honest when filling it out.

I went to a larger university, but the college I attended & majored in at said university was the smallest on campus.
The ability to have the faculty members know you by face & NAME means alot, or did for me. The personal interaction very much helps in the learning-knowledge transfer. It's all but up to the student to approach the teacher, that course of action fails you step up the academic ladder per say. That's all she can do at this point other than bear down & push the frustration aside.
FWIW, one of my Forestry professors lived across the street from my parents for many many years & that amounted to the professor knowing whom my parents were by face & name and that's that.

Greg

[Ron Jones near Indy]

Hello Fred,

I understand your frustration with this situation. I also agree that you urge your daughter pursue this issue. This is her education and she needs to stand up for herself in all aspects of it.

[Greg Cuetara]

Knew about the school-not-talking-to-parents thing from FIL. Daughter agreed that since M&D were footing the bill, she would fill out all the appropriate forms so that we could talk to the school regarding any matter. However, as I am not, nor want to be, a helicopter parent, I/we haven't used that avenue...yet.


Is this a new thing to schools? I went to two very prestigious schools the end of the 90's and my folks had conversations with the President of the College and the Department Head when I had a problem with one of my Professors who would not listen to me. He got his hand slapped and he finally listened to my side of the story and gave me a break. (My books and notes were stolen the day before an exam and he said too bad...I failed the exam...in the end I took a makeup.)

Anywho...there will be classes which will be disappointing and your daughter will ask herself why she took it and that it wasn't worth the money. You can never tell before hand where these classes are. Make the best out of them and move on.

I am an Engineer and did graduate work at one of the best schools in the world but was I ready to walk into the 'real world' and be productive and accurate. The answer was no which is why engineering and architecture require so many years of experience before you can become licenced. Just remember that one can go to a great school and walk out not knowing very much but someone else can go to a community college and know and learn a great deal. A lot of the education is what the student makes out of it.

Back to the OP problem. If this nontenured Professor is not a very good teacher are there other Professors who are better? The second semester of college is still gen. ed's and basic core classes. The problem is that these basic classes are usually taught by beginning Professors who don't have a lot of experience. Hopefully classes later on in her college career will bring the professors with more experience etc. Although one big problem with all colleges and universities right now is that most professors do not have real world experience and if they do it is very limited. Some schools have professionals coming in to do crits or teach classes etc. but then there are problems with that because they make more with their work than with the students...it is always a give and take.

IMHO I would write a simple letter to the department head just putting your concerns on the record. Something may or may not be done but at least you have put it out there. If there are other problems in the future you will be able to go back to your first concerns. In the end it is really up to your daughter to decide if the school is meeting her needs to develop her skills. If the school is not developing her skills then it may be time to transfer to a school which will develop her skills.

Good Luck. Just remember that it is her education not yours.
Greg

[Brian Effinger]

This situation is like an ancient riddle that has no answer.

Yup, that's the architecture department, in a nutshell. I had a similar experience, and after I graduated in '98, I had very little working knowledge of how architecture was practiced. Fortunately I was able to get into a firm, and one of the guys there took me under his wing, & 10 years later, I'm doing just fine.

Basically I see my formal education as just a stepping stone. If I didn't have that degree, I couldn't get a job and real experience, and I couldn't be taking my licensing exams (all 9 of them :eek:). It sounds to me like you and your daughter are more "nuts & bolts" than the professors. My advice is to just grin & bear it, and get the most out of it she possibly can. They aren't there to teach the practice of architecture, they are there to teach her how to think creatively. And while sometimes it seems like a colossal waste of time, it is valuable (to some extent) in the real world.

Also remember, most of the professors aren't licensed architects, nor do they have extensive experience in a firm (at least that's the way it was at my school). They are professional educators, nothing more and nothing less. As I said before, get through it and have her get the most out of it.

I wish her good luck. She's embarking on a difficult career that will earn her very little money, but a lot of satisfaction and enjoyment. :)

Brian

[Colin Giersberg]

While I only took a few college classes (University of N. Alabama, and several classes from a junior college), I think that the education process is going downhill fast. In the local paper today (The Huntsville Times, front page) an article states that Alabama is going to lessen (if passed) the requirements for getting a diploma. Instaed of emphasis on Science, the schools will have mandatory foreign language classes. Now, I am full blooded German, even though I was born in England, and I think that this is oh so wrong.
My parents learned English while they were in England, and improved their vocabulary while here. I just do not see where learning a foreign language should be mandatory. Optional, yes, mandatory, no.
To me, Science is one of the greatest things that a student can learn, and while I wont say that I am proficient in any one form of Science, I do enjoy reading up on various topics, just to keep up with the world as I know it. Learning a new language just does not seem to qualify.
I sincerely think that teachers need to do a better job, but I am not so naive as to believe that the students need to try harder too. We can all do better, we just have to want to. On a side note, the article also siad that the students would have to take more advanced math courses. Well, I hated math in high school, but my employer (AL. Dept. of Transportation) required its employees take a placement test, then go through several courses that fellow state employees taught. I can't say enough about how good these classes were. I never thought i would like geometry or trig, but I do now. Granted, these classes were not in depth like in a normal classroom, they were very good when it came to seeing how they applied to my job. I had been doing geometry for years before I realized just what it is. I know that there is a lot more math that I need to learn, but for the time being, what I know is enough for me. I can work with angles, and add, subtract, multiply, or divide them easily enough in order to get what I need. The states surveying made me learn that, as well as bookkeeping, records keeping and other things. So, I will end my rant here.

Regards, Colin

ps. Does any one have short cuts in math that they use and would care to share. How about a new post for that? I will start one shortly, so post up. Thanks.