Creekers' attitudes

[Ray Schafer]

Yoshikuni's latest post made me realize something. Whenever I read other forums, it seems like there are quite a number of posts that devolve into a spiral of negativity that is not pleasant to read. I have really enjoyed particpating in SC, because that does not seem to happen.

I don't know if that is because of the moderators' participation, or if the members simply do not buy in to that kind of thing. Whatever the reason, I read SC every day because the attitudes are so great and the members are so helpful. I don't really bother to read any other forums -- I only see them occasionally if I do a google search on a particular topic.

One great example is the various posts about the Dowlemax vs. Domino. There are obviously some strong opinions on dowels vx. M&T, but it did not get to the point of people being mean. It was just a great discussion of pros, cons and opinions.

SC moderators, please keep up the great work. Members, thanks for the great attitudes!

Ray

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ray.........as turner Frank Kobilsek puts it "sawdust is better than prozac!"

[alex grams]

This is one of the most civilized forums (of woodworking or other subjects) I have read or been a part of.

I personally think people who woodwork generally have to have a different attitude than the average Joe. Kind of a good-ol-boy mentality, where ya don't mind helping someone for no reason at all.

Common Courtesy Isn't Common Anymore.

[Andrew Pezzo]

Its amazing how some people will act on internet forums knowing there are real no repercussions for such viral behaviour. I doubt those people would be so brave and viral if they were discussing this stuff face to face. Being able to come to a forum and share ideas in safe and adult way is a great thing. Plus we all share a similar interest and can be great resources to others in need which can be very rewarding in iteself.
If it werent for places like this I would still be a very fustrated novice (now I am just a novice that gets fustrated until I post asking for some ideas - and get lots of great advice).

[Greg Cole]

I browse the "other forums" quite a bit. I've registered on one of them, and have posted 5-6 times all to classified ads. IIRC those classifieds where why I registered there in the first place.
Yes, the feel here is different and thats a good thing in comparison if ya ask me. Much like "voting" your preference of brand by where you spend your $ to me. It took awhile to feel a part of the community, but that's natural.
This place is a resource of resources and is definately a community based around good people, or at least the belief that people are inherently good.... not a bunch of "guys" who like to spit, cuss, scratch and dump on eachother or pick on the newbies. I can do all the above in the shop at work and have much more fun...;)
It's about our passion, helping others and sharing information.

Greg

[Ray Schafer]

I was actually commenting on this forum vs. other woodoworking forums. This one is much more civilized than most.

[Al Willits]

I was actually commenting on this forum vs. other woodoworking forums. This one is much more civilized than most.


Mods seem quicker to delete anything thats not positive, that would make it look more civilized.

Al

[Warren Clemans]

I think the difference has something to do with the fact that people on this forum use their real names. It's a lot easier to get nasty if you're hiding behind an alias. It's one big reason why I frequently read (if not post) at SMC and not at other WW forums.

[Gary Kvasnicka]

Its amazing how some people will act on internet forums knowing there are real no repercussions for such viral behaviour. I doubt those people would be so brave and viral if they were discussing this stuff face to face.
Andrew I agree with you...I also think it's because here your posts are under your own name not some handle. If you're a jerk here all the world could possibly see your name signed to it. Some very wise men wrote the TOS.

[Dave Verstraete]

This is the only forum that I really feel comfortable posting "novice" questions on. I feel that these questions are treated with respect. I applaud the moderators that have made this forum "Gentlemanly". Oops...need to include the ladies....and Ladylike.

[Gary Kvasnicka]

Warren you must type faster than I do.
Cheers,
Gary

[Ken Fitzgerald]

This is the only forum that I really feel comfortable posting "novice" questions on. I feel that these questions are treated with respect. I applaud the moderators that have made this forum "Gentlemanly". Oops...need to include the ladies....and Ladylike.

Civility....is not gender specific Dave!

[Will Blick]

I agree....actually, I think the reason for SMC recent huge increase in members, is a result of the viral behavior at woodnet, which was probably one of the biggest wood forums. Not only does SMC attract a different type of person.... the moderators are quick to prevent a thread from going in the dumper from personal attacks or unwarranted slander.


In addition, most other forums allow a handful of people to have play-out some "inside" humor through-out a thread, eating up tons of bandwidth. I find this disrespectful to the thousands of people who are trying to read through the thread to gain knowledge.... sometimes, a newb can't even separate the humor / sarcasm from reality. I rarely see this on SMC, maybe its the type of people that are attracted to this forum, or maybe the mods are quick to jump in and delete it before we see it....regardless, SMC is a great bunch of people...keep up the great site!

[Ben Rafael]

People could just as easily make up a name. I've seen plenty of attacks and negativity at other forums from people who use their real name.
The difference here is that the TOS, moderation, rules and attitudes are consistent and this is the big one, they are consistently applied and enforced. There is no favortism/cronyism to some members here, I've seen that at other forums, notably one mentioned previously. The moderators here do their job robotically(for lack of a better word).
Consistency is important, changing the rules in the middle of the game and then applying them to some members and not others creates negativity. I haven't seen that here.
BTW, there are 2 other forums I know of that don't have a negativity problem.

[Bill Wyko]

There's a commercial on TV where these kids are sitting at a table and all of a sudden one of them starts bagging really bad on one of them, then starts talking bad about the rest of them. The ads point is "If you wouldn't say it fact to face, don't say it at all. The commercial really gets the point across. I think its good words to live by. It'll make it much easire to find friends like the ones we have here too.:D

[Don Bullock]

You only have to look at my post count to know that this is by far my favorite forum. All here are greatly appreciated. I can't believe how much I've learned from the posters here. The LOML thanks you all as well. She appreciates the advice that I get here.

[Glenn Clabo]

Oh...Oh...Al figured it out. :mad: It's really all smoke, mirrors, and the moderators ability to make everyone think we are all playing nice in the same sandbox.:p;):D

[Gene E Miller]

Greetings & Salutations,

I agree that this is a very civil and informative forum.

I also agree that using real names may have something
to do with keeping that demeanor.

I remember way back in the dark ages when I was in
grade school I wrote my name in some fresh cement
and got caught and I had a Math teacher which happened
to be my favorite subject at the time, call me out and
since I was about 6 inches taller than her at the time
looking back it was kind of funny but I will never
forget what she said.

"A fools name and a fools faces will always be seen
in public places"

So believe me I ain't no fool and most folks here from
what I have observed aren't either so you won't see
name calling and negative stuff too often.

IMHO I believe that is what keeps folks coming back
here over and over again. I know I visited for a long
time even before becoming a member and once I did
I haven't and am sure I won't regret it for a second.

:D:D

Gene

[Peter Quinn]

I've been reading this forum for a few years on and off, recently became a member. I've learned loads here and still do each time I'm on which has become almost every day. As a stay at home dad presently the connection I feel to other woodworkers here at the creek is helping preserve my sanity! Way cheaper than therapy. Its cool to see so many people doing this because they love it. Most of the guys I worked with were 30 year veteran pro woodworkers who were sick of it because it had become just a job.

I've checked out other sites and none of them feel quite right for me. Some have a lot of ego/bickering, others devolve into 'Guy with the biggest factory' discussions, and the worst of them start to look like lunch in the junior high cafeteria. The creek has an air of maturity and civility that is rare on the web, and while I'm not sure what dynamics create it I sure am thankful its here.

[Greg Peterson]

SMC is by far the best site. Friendliest folks and the best info. Not all sites are equal :(.

The mods play a large part in setting and enforcing the tone. It's a thankless job and frankly I don't know why they do it. Thanks for keeping SMC such a great place guys.

[J. Z. Guest]

I agree Ray. That's why I joined, moved over from other sites. There are a lot of jerks there, and some of them are moderators.

I think it is cool that SMC requests that we use our real names as screen names. It kind of discourages things from getting out of hand, because people don't post anonymously.

Now if only there were a way to ensure that these ARE peoples' real names...

[Al Willits]

Oh...Oh...Al figured it out. :mad: It's really all smoke, mirrors, and the moderators ability to make everyone think we are all playing nice in the same sandbox.:p;):D

What you don't eliminate stuff that's not favorable?
Not smoke and mirrors, and anybody who's been on this forum for a bit, see's the occasional drift to the right or left, so to say the forum is all peaches and cream is not looking very well.
What the mods do is to keep everything on a even keel by eliminating anything they think isn't proper...imho

And while I don't always agree with what they do, it beats a unmoderated forum hands down, and I relate a Mod to a union steward, no matter what ya do, somebodies not gonna be happy.

Its a good place to come sit awhile and BS while your peeling the glue off your fingers...thanks.

Al

[Justin J. Hoffmann]

I don't post often, but I have learned a ton of stuff while reading the forums here at SMC. I stopped posting at the other place mentioned because I was tired of being attacked for some aspect of my questions in more than 50% of the replies. There were some truly helpful folks over there too, but I got tired of having to ignore so many people and their posts. It seemed that the majority of posters there have some ax to grind or like to pretend that they are experts on everything. Thank you to everyone for making this a friendly place to learn more about such a great hobby.

[Stephen Edwards]

I enjoy SMC for several reasons. I learn a lot. My questions are answered respectfully and without judgement. It seems that people with higher skill levels are willing to help those who are trying to learn. I also appreciate that fact that rich or poor, everyone here is treated respectfully by most people.

I also appreciate the thankless job of the moderators. My hat's off to all of ya'll!

Finally, I REALLY like the solutions that people come up with to common problems. It's a big timesaver for me. I've done countless searches that have helped me a lot and have enabled me not to have to "reinvent the wheel".

Kind Regards to All,

[Rob Will]

The thing that really strikes me about SMC is pretty much my impression of the Internet in general. In other words, here we all sit - some in remote places. If we have a specialized question we can instantly ask others who are in the know - and those answers can come from anywhere in the world.

I think the impact is especially evident for those of us who live in rural areas. You can't exactly run down to the general store and get an answer.....well, maybe not a good answer.

Indeed, SMC is the best of the best. We have good mods and the tone of discussion here makes it accessible to all.

In 100 years, historians will reflect upon how much the Internet changed the world. It may sound korny but in a way, we are all part of this history making - probably more than we realize.

Oops, gotta go. Somebody is sending a photo to my cell phone.

Rob

[Peter Quadarella]

It's the moderation. The best forums are ones that are not overly moderated, but are moderated with a strong and fair hand. This one has it down to a tee; thanks for all the hard work guys.

I also think that some topics bring out better people than others ;).

[Barry Nelson]

I subscribe to a number of forums this one is the best by far,friendliest,no great arguments (differing points of view, yes).Keep up the good work.:D

[Dave Falkenstein]

I agree that the Terms of Service used here, along with the attention paid by the moderators, creates a most-friendly-forum environment. One added thought - a positive environment is contagious. Unfortunately a negative environment is also contagious. The vast majority of folks here express themselves in a positive way, and that tends to feed on itself. The moderators help us keep things positive. We members can help the moderators by using the "Report Post" button in the upper right corner of every post to bring offensive posts to the attention of the moderators. We all benefit from the helpful and positive climate here at SMC.

[John Lannon]

This is a great forum.

[Joe Chritz]

Enforcers of any rule, law or conduct can only enforce what the "majority" of people want.

The discussions stay civilized because of the people. The people' trust in the mods allow them to keep things civilized.

Start second guessing the enforcers every time and things rapidly spiral out of control.

Joe

[David DeCristoforo]

Well, let me tell you what I think. While I agree that the moderation of the forum has a lot to do with the low level of negativity, I also think it has as much, if not more, to do with the positive attitude of the members. The people who gather here are all pretty much of "one mind" when it comes to matters of civility, negativity, back biting, arguing, etc. They don't want to have to deal with it. They want to "talk shop", trade ideas and generally enjoy some banter with other woodworkers. And anyone who insists on posting aggressive, obnoxious insulting, argumentative and/or offensive comments will feel the wrath of, not only the mods but the membership in general. Trust me on this....

Davasoto DeKuniforo

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David,

You are right....and so is Joe ....


The members when they join are supposed to read, heed and agree to the TOSs. They join because they want to be part of a civil site where woodworkers and related craftspersons from beginners to pros can civily exchange information. It is really a circle. The members want to be civil and the mods just try to evenhandedly enforce the TOSs and maintain the civility. We, as mods, can only maintain it as long as the members want it to remain civil.

You can and have every right to disagree with someone. But you can disagree and discuss all the while remaining civil. IMHO when someone loses their temper (including myself) you generally lose the ability to logically argue or discuss a point and you have lost the discussion. As mods and administrators here we often disagree but we do it with civility and respect for the other person. You wouldn't believe some of the discussions that go on in the Mod Forum.....and it's probably good that some of those discussions can't be seen in public.

Lastly....some things in life are important....most are not.

There is little here at SMC that deals in life or death situations....unless it's a life or death situation it's not important. Whether I have a Griz b/s or MM-16 so what?.....I bought mine for a set of reasons and you bought yours for a set of reasons....if you are happy ....I'm happy.

You severley injured you hand in a table saw accident and it's altered your life....that's important.......We disagree on which type of joint I should use on my shop cabinets......Hey...they're my cabinets...if I want repair them on an annual basis....that's my business......:rolleyes:

Moderating often isn't fun........Being a police officer like Joe often isn't fun.....Mods here don't get paid ....we are invited to do it and we do it because we have a passion for this site and the flavor of the site.....a place where beginners to pros...can exchange information on woodworking....in a civil manner......and along the way we may just become friends and share a little of our lives too!

[Dennis Peacock]

Great thread here Ray..!!!!!

What makes a great forum? It's "people".

People - Thinking about woodworking
People - Working with wood and learning new skills
People - Wondering what tool will help them be better at their hobby/craft
People - Young and Old alike, sharing experiences in such a wonderful hobby
People - Rich and poor alike, sharing experiences about how to make something work, with or without a special "tool"
People - Willing to share their knowledge with each other from Pro to staunch amateur
People - Willing to discuss matters both good and bad without slamming each other
People - Honestly caring about each other, even though they've never really met face-to-face, the care and concern are still there and just as strong
People - Willing to build a "community" of not just tool collectors, wood collectors, flatworkers, spinny thang turners, neanders, boat builders, carvers, and even those off-topic'ers that seem to spur on the other topics of today

The administrative staff and moderators do play a big role in helping to make SMC what it is to each of you....but.....it is EACH OF YOU that really make SMC all of what it is and all of what it will be.

Without "people"......there is nothing.

Remember: Don't sweat the small stuff..............and it's all small stuff. ;)

[Bryan Berguson]

SMC was a welcome relief after spending too many years on Usenet groups. If you really want to get discouraged, get insulted, or get in an argument, spend some time there!

It can't be just using your real name either. I spend an equal amount of time on Reloadbench.com and it's *almost* as civil as it is here and you don't have to use your name.

Whatever it is, I've learned a ton here in the last year and have enjoyed woodworking more because of it. Thanks SMC!

Bryan

[Ron Bontz]

I could only re-iterate that the constructive discussions here are in part because we are all discussing something we love to do and have the understanding there is much to learn from many. My ignorance is my greatest fault yet it is my greatest asset. If that makes sense.

[Jim Broestler]

I think it's all of the above, plus three things:

1. The moderators actually contribute to a lot of the posts here. So they're not just acting like the overseers with their trigger finger on the delete key. That tends to breed respect for how they handle things here.

2. I've seen a fair number of professional, published woodworkers here, and I think it helps to know that people who are well respected in the woodworking community are comfortable here. It gives the site a measure of professionalism, and I think we all want that to continue, so we police ourselves so as to keep that healthy environment going.

3. Virtually every post is directly related to woodworking. I've noticed how on other forums someone always seems to sneak in politics or something volatile like that rather than sticking to the purpose of the site, and it always goes downhill from there.

[Ken Harrod]

I used to frequent some woodworking newsgroups and a couple other sites. I was always surprised at some of the negative comments.

The thing that bothered me most, was there was a "heirarchy" it seemed on those sites. You were only a "real" wood worker if you had a couple hundred grand worth of tools.

Everything except the very best table saw was just junk. If it was made outside the USA, then you were a bad person for buying it, and even though that table saw allowed you to build stuff, you should not have bought it, until you had enough money to get a real cabinet saw by XYZ brand. Even if that meant you could not do any projects for 3 years until you could afford the "real" table saw.

It seems to be that way with every tool. It actually drove me away from those sites for all the negativity.

My first "table saw" was when I lowered the blade for my black and decker 7 1/4 saw through a sheet of plywood, bolted the base to it, zip tied the trigger in the "on" position, and used the power strip it was plugged into as the on off switch. The sheet of plywood sat on a couple sawhorses, and I made a t-square fence from 2/4 material. Crude... yes... dangerous... well, probably. Did it work for me to build some projects... YES. After about a year, I bought my contractors table saw.

Here, I don't really see the attitude that only the most expensive tools are worth having. I enjoy woodworking because I can create something myself, in my garage, that would cost MUCH more out in town. And, if you can still make that item without having the latest and greatest tools, then I see that as even more impressive.

I would get more satisfaction out of carving a sign with a hammer and chisels than I would by typing in the words to a computer and having a CNC router shoot it out a couple minutes later.

[Troy Wilkins]

I agree Ray. That's why I joined, moved over from other sites. There are a lot of jerks there, and some of them are moderators.

I think it is cool that SMC requests that we use our real names as screen names. It kind of discourages things from getting out of hand, because people don't post anonymously.

Now if only there were a way to ensure that these ARE peoples' real names...

The best thing about SMC is the fact that it is not okay to call moderators derogatory names. They flat out won't allow that kind of free discussion about other forums over there.

/irony

[Glenn Clabo]

The best thing about SMC is the fact that it is OK to call other website moderators derogatory names. They flat out won't allow that kind of free discussion about other forums over there.
/irony

Actually Troy...it's NOT OK...and we won't allow it over here. If you or anyone else finds a post that does that...please report it.

[Troy Wilkins]

Actually Troy...it's NOT OK...and we won't allow it over here. If you or anyone else finds a post that does that...please report it.

Did you read the post that I quoted?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Troy...I edited the post you are referring to. It's not okay to refer to other websites in a derogatory manner and it's not okay to use abbreviated profanity.

Glenn hasn't had enough coffee yet this morning.:D

[Glenn Clabo]

Did you read the post that I quoted?

Ooppps! :o Ken had my back...again.

[Michael Gibbons]

Looks like there was a comptuer glitch or somebody edited the post(s). Look at them all!!

[Terry Teadtke]

This site is refreshingly civil compared to other sites I’ve visited. I was over at another site last night and was surprised at some of the bickering going on between posters. The civil tone of this site was the main reason I decided to contribute. As long as we stay away from politics I would imagine this site will continue to be a reasonable place to exchange ideas.

Terry

[Norman Pyles]

Actually Troy...it's NOT OK...and we won't allow it over here. If you or anyone else finds a post that does that...please report it.
Thank you SMC for that rule.:)

[Mike Dauphinee]

Actually Troy...it's NOT OK...and we won't allow it over here. If you or anyone else finds a post that does that...please report it.

Ironic is that it still exists at all. But even more so is that it really is okay to be derogatory (as evidenced by the moderator edit and ignoring it in his own quote too.) about other web sites and their people as long as you pretend to not really name them. After the edit, it really was still allowed.

Funny, no one really considers that there are many happy and content members of BOTH (or all 3 or more) sites.

Consider that some folks like chocolate ice cream and some like vanilla. Some like both. But being a member of any of those groups does not make ice cream bad. Just different flavors that appeal to the consumer.

[Steve Clardy]

Hey you didn't mention Strawberry :confused::D

[David DeCristoforo]

There is a HUGE difference between "disagreeing" and "disrespecting". Disagreement is inevitable and, if fact desirable. If you think about it, one of the main reasons for a forum like this existing in the first place is the diversity of ideas and methods expressed by the membership. If everyone gave the same answer to every question or the same response to every statement, there would not be much point in having a discussion. The fact is, there are many ways to solve a problem. Some may be better than others but, in most cases, any number of the solutions offered may be equally valid in spite of the difference in method, technique or philosophy they might represent. A forum encourages the expression of these ideas in a way that allows others to evaluate and decide for him or her self which one is the "best" for them. The problem is that these disagreements can become heated, especially when the subject is emotionally or politically charged. One of my favorite pastimes it watching the British Parliament sessions on PBS. These guys are in each other's faces, booing and shouting each other down in a way that would, without a doubt lead to, at the very least, a huge fist fight in any other venue. But there is always a very obvious line over which no one ever steps. It's hard to see sometimes, but it's there.

DDYM

[Zahid Naqvi]

I agree with some of your comments Mike. SMC, woodnet and woodcentral (there I named 'em :D) each has a "personality", you pick the one that works for you and make it you home turf. I am sure most WW'ers read all three (like I do) but mostly prefer one over the others.

There are enough avenues to get into an argument with other humans, let's keep SMC focused on WWing, this is where we kick our shoes off and talk shop/wood/tools.

I am more of a chocolate man, but can't stick with one flavor for long, I keep "sampling":cool:

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ironic is that it still exists at all. But even more so is that it really is okay to be derogatory (as evidenced by the moderator edit and ignoring it in his own quote too.) about other web sites and their people as long as you pretend to not really name them. After the edit, it really was still allowed.

Funny, no one really considers that there are many happy and content members of BOTH (or all 3 or more) sites.

Consider that some folks like chocolate ice cream and some like vanilla. Some like both. But being a member of any of those groups does not make ice cream bad. Just different flavors that appeal to the consumer.

Mike,

Thanks for pointing out. I and other Mods hadn't noticed our oversite but I've taken care of it.


It's not okay to flame other websites or their moderators at SMC. If I'd have noticed it earlier, I would have edited it earlier. A simple clicking on the offending post or a PM to a moderator would have gotten it done also.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Not sure if this has already been posted but.... I think this forum from the very beginning owes a lot to the one that started this type of friendly community, "Badger Pond". Many of the folks here, myself included, came over here as soon as BP closed its doors. So in many ways that attitude got transfered here...on top of that whether it is liked or not the moderators here keep this place under control...

[Mike Dauphinee]

Thanks Ken, I only posted openly because that is how the conversation was going by all parties.

Personally, I am of the mind that ALL WW sites are good for us ALL. Personal like or dislike should not be the focus.....WW should be. And for the most part they are. The Creek is not any better or worse than any other...in the ice cream sense it is just another flavor....one that is the favorite of many. Having many flavors to choose from makes more people like WW and that makes our hobby/career more popular and creates more opportunity and gives us power with advertisers too. All that is good stuff.

We should never focus negatively on what happens on another site, it really is counterproductive to our culture as a whole. Like it or not, WoodNetters, Creekers, WoodCentrals, Zoners and on and on are all family. We best not pick on our own family even when they don't always behave the way we want them to.

[Bill Edwards(2)]

I'm new here and I am very impressed with the calm nature of this forum.

I've been on other types of forums, where the common interest you'd think would be enough to keep peace, but they are war zones.

The moderators, the use of real names, the daeth threats, oh no, sorry thats another forum, I think go a long ways to making a nice place.

http://www.unclebill.us/bigs/thumbup.gif

[Scott Kilroy]

I think the difference has something to do with the fact that people on this forum use their real names. It's a lot easier to get nasty if you're hiding behind an alias. It's one big reason why I frequently read (if not post) at SMC and not at other WW forums.

Interesting point. I originally hesitated to joining sawmill creak because of the use of full names. Not because I have anything to hide but because I was changing jobs and noticed that SMC post ranked very high on Google. I was worried that SMC post would overshadow work related items. I wonder if anyone else has hesitated to join SMC for a similar reason.

[Bill Edwards(2)]

Interesting point. I originally hesitated to joining sawmill creak because of the use of full names. Not because I have anything to hide but because I was changing jobs and noticed that SMC post ranked very high on Google. I was worried that SMC post would overshadow work related items. I wonder if anyone else has hesitated to join SMC for a similar reason.

What else do you do in life where you don't use your real name?
Nothing legal.:D

[Mike Gager]

i mainly just go here and the "family" woodworking forum and i like both. i see a lot of people here that post there as well. i wish this forums design forum was open to everyone like theirs is but other then that this place is great. one of these days i will become a contributor so i can get in. :)

[Mike Gager]

What else do you do in life where you don't use your real name?
Nothing legal.:D


yeah ive used my real name on just about every forum (woodworking and other) that ive ever joined. always thought the nick name thing was silly. for instance i use to go to a lot of ford mustang boards and they would have get togethers every now and then and people would be introuding themselves and calling each other by their nick names

"hey slow86gt50 hows it going?" "pretty good purplesnake98 how about you?"

lol

[Richard Wagner]

I hope all of you really mean what you are saying here. I say that because I thoroughly enjoy this forum and the discussions that are carried on here. However, I feel a little bit of pressure to go away when I attempt to discuss my "Shopsmith".

I have been a Shopsmith user for as long as many of you have been doing woodworking. I have limited space so the Shopsmith has been a natural fit. I find it to be a quality machine and it serves all of my needs.

But tell me - how do you folks really feel. Would you rather I simply go away? Do you consider me an equal in the wood shop despite my choice of tools?

Several of the members on one of the Shopsmith forums believes that owning a Shopsmith works against them on SMC. Is this just a paranoia or is it for real?

[Mike Dauphinee]

Richard, IMO you are gonna fine pride in ownership of tools. That is part of the human equation. Sometimes it spills into the my tool is better thinking. But it really all boils down to the craftsman, not the tool. What you build is who you are, not what you build it with. Keep building and let those that feel good about their tools fell good about them. You can feel good about what you create and the tools you have to do so with. Remember somewhere in Honduras there is someone who turns out beautiful segmented bowls on a foot operated lathe and is using the equivalent of a sharp rock the gouge it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Richard....I've never seen anyone belittled for owning or using a Shopsmith. I've seen several former Shopsmith owners here post that they felt the machine had some limited capabilities. We even have a Neander forum here for those that want to be totally "Green" and totally cordless.

Use what you have.....do what you can.

[Keith Outten]

The comparison of online woodworking forums is much to complex an issue to use the ice cream flavor analogy.

There are significant differences in each community and the way things are accomplished, these are based on the personalities of large groups of people so the issue becomes very complex real quick. It isn't as simple as preferring one flavor over another. It would be foolish to try to rate an online community for anyone but yourself as each persons personality has such a major impact on their selection criteria.

It is true that The Creek is very similar to Badger Pond, that is by choice since the original core group that established SawMill Creek migrated from The Pond when it ceased to exist. Our Terms of Service were derived from the rules established by the owner of Badger pond with a few changes that our Community felt were important to them when we started SawMill Creek. At the very core of our Community values is the need to assure that people remain friendly and considerate towards their peers.

I have developed a healthy respect for those who own and operate woodworking forums. Like your favorite tools they are selected for various reasons that fit user specifications and I think it is impossible to operate a public forum that meets everyone's needs. This is why we have the core group of major forums to choose from and people tend to migrate toward communities that are the best fit for their personalities. Often smaller communities are the best fit for some woodworkers, there is something for everyone.

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[Richard Wagner]

I too enjoy this forum but I enjoy equally the two Shopsmith forums that I frequent. I post there, much more than here, because I have a Shopsmith shop.

Those forums use nicknames and I don't believe that factor has degraded the forums at all. They are no less civil there than here. Most of us are adults and I believe that is the difference. Those who can not behave in public simply haven't reached that stage yet - and maybe never will.

[J. Z. Guest]

Hi Richard,

Former Shopsmith owner here. I think the reason people don't want to discuss it is simply that not many are really qualified to discuss it. Not many folks have experience on them, and they don't want to make fools of themselves.

The threads I see on Shopsmiths are usually pro/con type threads.

I do think it is odd that it doesn't occur to more folks with a small shop. Going with hand tools occurs to them, but not a combination power tool like the Shopsmith. :confused:

I got rid of my Shopsmith for a few reasons:


I didn't feel that safe at the table saw; the table was almost neck-high when I was cutting 3/4" thick stock.
I couldn't seem to get the rip fence to stay parallel. (stock fence) Looking back, that may not have been the problem, I just assumed it was from the burning. It was likely a splitter alignment problem.
I didn't like having to crank the speed all the way down before turning it off and crank the speed up before doing something.
I moved out from home into an apartment and didn't have ANY room for a shop
The Shopsmith jointer is only 4" wide. I'm OK with a 6" jointer, but 4" is really pushing it
Still had to buy a separate planer, and the Shopsmith one was out of my reach.
Cost of accessories is very high. However, realizing that they're US-made, it would not bother me as much these days.
Buying a new one isn't realistic, due to the price. (over $3k!)
Having to plan projects more carefully (because of machine change-overs) didn't bother me
There were several things about the Shopsmith that I really liked and miss now that I have more conventional tools:


The disc sander is usable with the top-notch fence & miter gauge
The drill press & boring machine functions have no equals in the woodworking world.
I don't have room for a lathe now, I did when I had the Shopsmith instead of stationary tools ;)
The bottom line for me is that I miss everything about it except the table saw, but I would have still needed a separate jointer & planer, at which point one has to wonder if portability is really an advantage any more.

Shopsmith should get their act together and design 6" planer and jointer attachments, and not charge too much.

As for the attitudes, I think tool preference is akin to religion. We all have our own beliefs and should not force them on others. Some prefer hand tools, others power tools. Some prefer normal stationary tools, others Shopsmiths.

I think Shopsmiths are different enough that they should have their own sub-forum here. Then, we have the Shopsmith guys mingling with us from time to time and vice versa.

One last thing: I think you should start a separate thread for this. I stopped reading this thread a while ago, and many others probably did too. I just checked on it for the heck of it.

[Richard Wagner]

Thank you for your frank and honest comments. I believe I will start a separate thread because you have made some observations that I feel compelled to comment on.

Shopsmith has resolved some the shortcomings of earlier machines and that needs to be discussed. Your comment about the rip fence is what leads me to conclude that you had an earlier machine (a Mark V 500 or 505).

Again, I thank you for your comments.

[Keith Outten]

I hope all of you really mean what you are saying here. I say that because I thoroughly enjoy this forum and the discussions that are carried on here. However, I feel a little bit of pressure to go away when I attempt to discuss my "Shopsmith".

I have been a Shopsmith user for as long as many of you have been doing woodworking. I have limited space so the Shopsmith has been a natural fit. I find it to be a quality machine and it serves all of my needs.

But tell me - how do you folks really feel. Would you rather I simply go away? Do you consider me an equal in the wood shop despite my choice of tools?

Several of the members on one of the Shopsmith forums believes that owning a Shopsmith works against them on SMC. Is this just a paranoia or is it for real?

Richard,

The diversity of SawMill Creek is our strong suit. You would be well advised to discount anyones opinion who is always right and ignore those who don't understand that there isn't just one way to accomplish a goal. I doubt there is anyone here who has a shop like mine or anyone who selects their equipment the way I do. Even my material of choice these days is way off the beaten path as I rarely use wood anymore.

Some of my recent acquisitions are very expensive and complex machines but I stand by some of the older machines I have used for many years that suit me even though many here would certainly scoff at my choices. I have an edge sander that cost $80.00 brand new, there is absolutely no fit or finish to the machine but it works perfectly and I use it daily. My no name edge sander sits right next to my ShopBot CNC Router, you can see that the range of my selections in tools is all over the place :)

Use your Shopsmith if it is your tool of choice, there are plenty of woodworkers here who will enjoy what you have to say about your way of woodworking even though they may be part of the mostly-silent majority.

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[Dave Falkenstein]

...But tell me - how do you folks really feel. Would you rather I simply go away? Do you consider me an equal in the wood shop despite my choice of tools?

Several of the members on one of the Shopsmith forums believes that owning a Shopsmith works against them on SMC. Is this just a paranoia or is it for real?

Relax Richard. There are lots of tools that bring out strong opinions, both pro and con, and Shopsmith is just one of them. Discussions of Festool and EZ Smart are two more examples of highly spirited exchanges. Enjoy your Shopsmith and don't worry about what other people think.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

I might as well weigh in here as well.

I lurked for a short while on a number of forums before deciding to make SMC my home. And I'm certainly glad I did because the guys and gals here are great. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the wealth of information available here from the wonderful and diverse group of individuals is priceless.

I still consider myself a newbie and I know I ask some silly questions from time to time, but I've never felt like I didn't fit in. Everyone here seems to be good natured, helpful, caring, patient, etc. I could go on an on, but I won't bore you all with my gushing. :D

Paul

[Glenn Clabo]

No need to get personal here folks...and calling people out isjust that.

[Dennis Peacock]

Please....let's do our best to stick with the OP topic. While I too am a long time fan of the Shopsmith/TotalShop type machines, that is a topic for another thread. :)