Bunk Bed business (scam)?

[Rob Horton]

Could really use some advice all. I'm thinking of trying to make some extra money, just here and there, with my woodworking. Dream alert: would really like to make furniture making into a full-time profession.

I saw this site http://www.bunkbedspecialties.com/ in American Woodworker mag (one of those ads in the back).

Anybody think this is some sort of scam? I realize that yes, it would take a lot of leg work on my part to get clients. And very likely, it would be some time before I could make anything at all.

But I'm wondering if this wouldn't be a good place to get started in your own woodworking business. I was thinking that once a person had built some clients just for bunk bed business, you could always expand services to other furniture making. Kind of a "get your foot in the door" sort of thing.

Am I dreaming? Or does this sound possible?

[Chris Padilla]

Rob,

Hopefully someone like Todd Burch will chime in here but here is what I've noticed:

I did not dig into the website you posted so my thoughts will be unrelated to that. I am working on a custom built-in Entertainment Center for some close friends. It is my gift to them for their new baby...they pay material cost and I do all the labor for free. (see my post in the design forum Floating Maple Shelf)

So far, I've only completed the TV shelf...I still have two more to do plus the cabinet that will reside below the TV shelf. Simply due to their friends coming over (to see the baby of course), I have gotten A LOT of exposure just from this simple TV shelf and some calls are starting to come in!

To be honest, I barely have time to do my normal job and my own household chores/remodelling/and my own EC! I really don't need more work to do...even for decent money! I guess you'd call this ironic. :(

Any way, just some food for thought. Best of luck to you.

[Todd Burch]

Rob, do you think you would LIKE building bunk beds? Got a place to store inventory? Who will you be competing with? What market will you serve?

These, and thousands more, are questions I still ask myself every day. Well, not the "bunkbed" question, specifically, but you probably get my point.

I would offer this advice. Pick something YOU WANT to do and LIKE doing. Something that you can do exceptionally WELL or FAST - either one will work just fine. Personally, I'm not FAST, so I aspire for WELL. After you decide on that, go talk to whoever might be purchasing these things from you - wholesale or retail. Then, determine if you can make enough $$ to carve out your living. It sounds so simple, doesn't it? It's not - it's a lot of work. Just yesterday evening, my wife and I had the same conversation that we have played 100 times before - what "product" can I produce that will provide the cashflow we need to live the life that we want. We haven't figured it out yet!!

I've heard the advice before that you should only quit your day job when you're losing so much money from your hobby because you have to go to work everyday. (or something like that)

In summary, if you are going to "take the plunge", do what you want to do - don't settle for a means to an end.

Todd - who's doing it all wrong himself, so I really shouldn't be offering advice!

[Chris Padilla]

Bingo!!! :)

[Bill Grumbine]

Hi Rob

Let me add to what Todd has already written so well. If it were me building bunk beds, I would want a HUGE liability insurance policy for all the morons who will blame me every time junior gets a scratch and try to get rich off of me because of it.

I am coming up on 11 years in business, and have never had any sort of a claim against me, but I still carry lots of insurance for that day. The first five years I was in business, I worked "without a net" as no one would talk to me about insuring me until I had five years of business behind me. It was sort of scary, but I tried to stay away from things involving children or other items that were potentially dangerous to me in the form of greedy lawyers and clients.

Beyond that, Todd is right. You have to love what you are doing if you are going to even have a chance of succeeding. The second half of that is finding people who want to buy what you like to make. Like Todd says, it sounds easy, but it often isn't. If you have the drive and the will though, it is worth it.

Bill

[Rob Horton]

Thanks for all your comments and advice guys. Todd, it's comforting (in a twisted sort of way I suppose) to see that some else besides me is having those types of conversations with their wife too :D

Anyhow, I think I will take a step back and go at this a bit slower. I make a good wage now as a computer programmer but it's just not something I can see myself doing until I retire.

I love woodworking, creating something that will last a lifetime with my hands. I haven't made a great deal of things yet so I should probably take it slower for that reason too. Just a clock for my father-in-law, a portable food safe for my mother-in-law, shop cabinets and a workbench for me, and some laundry room cabinets for my wife ... um ... wait ... maybe I've made more than I though - lol

Anyhow, I'm rambling. I think the best advice is what you said Todd. Find something you LOVE and do it WELL. That goes for any career I suppose. Thanks for reminding me.

P.S. I've been meaning to post some pics of projects I've done to get some opinions on my work. I'll try and do that soon since I've never posted pics of my work before (haven't been at the Creek that long).

Thanks again everyone!!!

[markus shaffer]

Rob,

I wouldn't quite say this is a scam.. But what I would say is that you probably don't need to spend over $600 to have someone tell you how to build a bunk bed out of 2X6 pine. What the "15 Ways To Success" article doesn't take in to account, what is your time worth? Using their numbers, you would get between $37 to $46.50 per hour. Sounds about right until you factor in all the expenses that come with this sort of work.. All the little things do add up not to mention something to consider might be insurance. God forbid some poor kid leaps off the bed, breaks an arm and his parents decide it's faulty work on the bed that caused the broken arm. This isn't to scare you, but I sincerely doubt whoever set up that website and wrote that article knows the difference between a hand saw and a hand plane. Alright, maybe that's a little too harsh, but realistically what they are offering you is information (bunkbed plans and a simple business plan) you can get for very little if not for free by spending time at a library or a bookstore. Throwing in the "how to" video and the "assembly jig", I still can't imagine why this would cost over $600..

Whatever the case may be, if it would be something on the side and you were enjoying it, then I think the idea is fine. I just wouldn't bother paying those people for plans that you can get either for free or certainly less that twenty dollars from somewhere. I would imagine you could come up with better plans on your own as well.. Keep in mind who your competition is at those prices as well. I used to spend time trying to explain the difference between what I build and what Ikea "builds" to some clients. Now if someone even tries to brings up the word Ikea, I send them on their way. Thing is, at prices as cheap as what that website is saying you ought to sell for, those are going to be your prospective clients. I'm not trying to discourage you, but if you want to make money at woodworking, I think you ought to set your sights higher.

Something to be aware of, you may really think you love woodworking and would really like to do it for a living, but this is definately hard work. More so than most people really know. I may be a bad example being that I live in one of the most expensive places in the country, thus my overhead is really high, but I end up working more 12-15 hour days than I care to admit to. And I still have crappy sagging particle board Ikea shelves in my own home since I don't have enough time to make things for my own house. However, I wake up every morning and think to myself, "I get paid to play with power tools...."

-Markus

[Paul Downes]

Rob, I've also been having conversations with the wife about wwing businesses. I would suggest to you that the guy running the site you mentioned wants to sell you a few pieces of paper and a simplistic business plan that you could have for a few miniuts on the web for free. ( sans the cost of a few electrons :) ) From previous experiance I think 2 things are of paramount importance. first, you need to find a unique product and establish a nich market, essentially creating the demand for your product. Or you need to find out what people want and figure out if there is a sustainable and growth market for that product that you can produce. Second, did I mention marketing? I don't care if you have the most amazing piece of furniture made from wood from Noah's ark. If you don't market it well you will not sell it well. Did I mention marketing? Marketing can be easier with the internet and all, but it is still something that requires a lot of time and creative effort to make happen by the average person.
I know a guy who is a very talented woodworker. He has a very unique line of furniture made from the best figured maples, but his maketing s**ks. He constantly struggles to make sales and carries a lot of inventory. Did I mention Marketing? On the other hand, I also knew a guy who had a pizza business. I suggested to him a new marketing strategy and also warned him that he had a limited capacity to meet the demand should customers come. He didn't listen and for 3 days had a line of people going out his door and down the street. Needless to say, they stopped coming.
An important question to ask is: What do I like to build? Are you good at mass production and decent quality, or would you rather shoot for uniqueness and fine craftsmanship. If you are thinking volume, and I would assume the bunk beds might fall into this catagory, then you need to establish a market where you can meet the demand. I wonder if you could compete with the Chinese in this regard? On the other hand if you were willing to be flexible design wise and work with local furniture stores on commission, or consignment, you may be able to establish a trusting relationship that benifits both parties. Did I mention marketing?

good luck-Paul

I myself pray about these things.

[Chris Padilla]

How do some of the famous woodworker's today get known? Maloof can sell a rocking chair for 10k. Why can he do that? How did he get the recognition he has in order to command the prices he does?

Frankly, there are loads of talented people here on this site...why aren't we selling cabinets for 10k?

[Todd Burch]

Chris - who says we aren't? ;)

[Paul Downes]

Chris - who says we aren't? ;)
Check out www.birdseye-connection.com Looks like the marketing has been picked up a notch! By the way, I am in no way affiliated with this site. He does produce some awesome furniture!

[Brian Hale]

Like many others here i've considered making woodworking my primary income.

One thing that comes to mind is salesmanship; are you good at selling yourself. Can you look folks in the eye and say with complete confidence that you're the best they're going to find; that your products are of the highest quality and will still be around when others have been sent to the woodstove. I believe that if you can do that and have the desire to work harder at it than any other job you've had before then you've got a good shot at success. Most folks will buy products if they are convinced the quality is second to none and has real value to them.

Your competition is stiff. WallMart sells bookcases for less than $75 and its very possible your potential customers have already looked them over and decided it wasn't quite what they wanted. Folks will consider that price while they look at your $675 quote.

Also think about the paycheck. Right now we know how much money we can save by the end of next month. By the middle of the summer we can have $xxxx.xx saved up for our once in a lifetime 2 week vacation (6 months advance reservations required... non-refundable). Working for yourself is a whole nother story. You plan your vacation and save what you can when the money is coming in. Thats great till "The Job" for a $12,000 bedroom suite comes in and the guy wants it in time for the wifes birthday, which happens to be 1 week after your vacation is supposed to end.

I'm not trying discourage anyone, just relating the things the wife and i talk about whenever this topic comes up.

One last point that's important to me... I hate working and enjoy woodworking. Do i really want to turn woodworking into work?

Brian :)

[Joe Suelter]

Well, here's my take. Why do you want to make bunk-beds? You need to ask yourself, is there really a market for high-priced, all-be-it well built bunk beds? By the time you figure labor and materials, you would have to sell these things for what, a few hundred? Here locally you can buy them for around $100-$200 in discount stores. If you were to jump into your own business, make something YOU want ot make, like fine furniture, stuff people want and ask you for...maybe even things they help design...but I surely wouldn't jump into a business of 1 product and that's it...you'll surely sink! I say make a few smaller peices of furniture, take them to craft shows (we have lots of outdoor type fairs here almost every weekend in summer) and get your name out there. If your product is of decent quality and prices fair, you wont be able to keep up with orders fast enough. My father-in-law does it for a living, and he is "busy" year round...he doesn't make a living at it, but he is retired and only does one product at a time.

[Ian Barley]

Danger signal number 1 - "You just have to figure out what to do with all the profits!!" Anbody who feels they can say this about any business is being less than completely honest.

Danger signal number 2 - "All it takes is one of these sales per day -- JUST ONE!" This is a non-disposable product - it will be espected to have a lifespan measured in years not weeks and depending on your community size etc I would be surprised at 1 sale per day. Also bear in mind that if you sell one a day you have to make (and finish!!) one a day. Sounds like some going.

Danger Signal number 3 - "Your profit - $185". Bunk!!! This is a gross profit figure and a generous interpretation of one at that. You have to deal with rent, power, insurance, delivery cost, tool finance costs, sharpening, advertising, stationery, accountants fees ...

I made the leap from a salaried job in IT to a full time woodworking business just over 2 years ago. In those two years I have earned about as much as I would have in 6 months of my salaried job. I have worked harder than I ever did and do not have the security of knowing that the salary cheque will be there whatever. Would I make the same decision again? In a heartbeat. I love it. I have not had to go to work in the last two years. In this I am using Samuel Clemens defifnition which loosely transalated says - "whatever a man has to do but doesn't want to is work.

I have said before, and will say every time I am asked, the business of woodworking is a business. If you can't deal with a cashflow forecast, create and execute a marketing plan, sell, negotiate or manage accounts then it doesn't matter if you can cut perfect half blind dovetails by hand - you won't make a living. I am no better than average as a woodworker. Much of the stuff that appears on this forum leaves me awestruck. But I have run business units and believe thatI am making a reasonable fist of running my business. My ability to manage a customer database and construct marketing mailshots has been far more important than my woodoworking skills.

As to the magic bunk bed scheme - I wouldn't touch it. It might be a good product but you certainly don't need this sort of scheme to exploit it. I think that Mr Grumbine is right. I would steer clear of kid centred products for the same reason he quotes. Todd is also right - you have to find something that gives you pleasure to make because that is gonna be your main reward.

[John Keeling]

Just saw a thing on the magazine that came with our Sunday Paper, the Times Union, which was listing salaries for various jobs. Kelly Mehler, who wrote the Tablesaw Book, was listed, although admittedly he's just a woodworker, not a cabinetmaker or a furnituremaker, or so the listing says. But he makes just $67K, which for someone in the fore-front of this profession is surprisingly little. Although I don't see him writing for magazines like some of the other more reknown characters.

Not thinking of giving up my day job just yet, but dreaming about it all the time!

John, NY

[Dave Harker]

Think of the market size for custom-made, higher-then-walmart-quality bunkbeds: households who CANNOT afford a house having one bedroom per kid, yet CAN afford and CHOOSE to buy custom-made furniture for those kids.

ie, small.

Good luck,
Dave

[Steve Clardy]

If thats what you really want to do, keep it part time till you get your necessary tools paid for. I struggled for years after I turned my hobby into a cabinet and staircase business. I did craft stuff, piece work for furniture co.'s, pictures frames by the thousands, before i actually got some tools paid for and got to making what I wanted to make. It has taken me 11 years to get some relief from bills, etc.
If you do good work, word of mouth advertising is the best advertising you can get.
Keep it simple starting out, don't get overloaded, working all night and all weekend, and keeping a full time job. Believe me, you'll get burnt out fast.
Steve. Been there, done that.

[Richard Wolf]

Why did this thread come back to life. Oh well.

Richard

[Steve Clardy]

Why did this thread come back to life. Oh well.

Richard
Lol. Looks like John picked up an old thread. I didn't notice it was a year old before I posted.:o