If a tree fell in the woods ------

[Matt Ocel]

If a tree fell in the woods and there was no one there to hear it, would Home Depot stock at least one straight 2 X 4????????

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Matt....it's not just Home Depot. It seems like every place I go to buy lumber is that way. We have one "regional" lumber/hardware store where the employees deliver the lumber to your truck/vehicle. When I objected to poor quality lumber and asked permission to "high grade" it, I was told it was against company policy. I told them to unload it from my truck and I took the slip inside for a full refund. It's against my policy to pay for something that is very nearly useless.

[Craig Thompson]

As I ponder the deep nature of your post, I can only come up with a long winded, hopefully incitefull answer of..............................................

"Nope"

[David DeCristoforo]

These days most trees are cut down long before they get mature enough to either fall over or yield a straight 2X4. So the "short answer to your question is... no......

YM

[Karl Brogger]

Isn't that horrible. I needed eight 2x4's for a another outfeed table. I went through almost half of a unit of 2x4's to get enough straight ones. I still planed a 1/16th off of each face to clean them up.

I bought my first house almost 4 months ago. The basement is unfinished, I'm going to have to throw some standards out the window to get it framed. I wish the engineered studs weren't so expensive.

[C Scott McDonald]

If a tree fell in the woods and there was no one there to hear it, would Home Depot stock at least one straight 2 X 4????????

HAHA! So true.

[Randal Stevenson]

Matt....it's not just Home Depot. It seems like every place I go to buy lumber is that way. We have one "regional" lumber/hardware store where the employees deliver the lumber to your truck/vehicle. When I objected to poor quality lumber and asked permission to "high grade" it, I was told it was against company policy. I told them to unload it from my truck and I took the slip inside for a full refund. It's against my policy to pay for something that is very nearly useless.

It is a PITA when I need only a few and spring hits. If I need a bunch, I could have one of my builder friends order it, and probably get a higher percentage of good (they spend enough money), but looking at some of the houses today, and how they are constructed, I know there are quite a few bowed boards in there............(wavey walls without all the 60's/70's flashback material)

[SCOTT ANDREWS]

Isn't that horrible. I needed eight 2x4's for a another outfeed table. I went through almost half of a unit of 2x4's to get enough straight ones. I still planed a 1/16th off of each face to clean them up.

I bought my first house almost 4 months ago. The basement is unfinished, I'm going to have to throw some standards out the window to get it framed. I wish the engineered studs weren't so expensive.


Engineered studs are a PITA.Yes they are nice and straight but,they are like trying to nail into a rock.For a basement,I would go with metal studs.There are ways to keep the usual door rattle when slammed from happening.Electrical is also a snap.Just a thought.

[Per Swenson]

Engineered studs are a PITA.Yes they are nice and straight but,they are like trying to nail into a rock.For a basement,I would go with metal studs.There are ways to keep the usual door rattle when slammed from happening.Electrical is also a snap.Just a thought.


A rock? I wouldn't know, only because I haven't hand nailed anything

since there was only one rotary phone in the

house and you rented it from ma bell.

You are correct about steel in basements and all non load bearing applications. It's the way to go and much easier on the wallet.

We just clad our openings in doug fir and screw a 2x3 in to the cavity.

Per

[George Sanders]

The local Lowe's always has a loose bundle of 2x4's out for people to pick through. Then they will rebundle them and send them out to a construction site where they are usually rejected as unusable.

[Ted Christiansen]

The biggest reason for the bananna boards is that they are cut, planed and then dried in the bundle for higher production. That is why the lumber on the exterior of the bundle is dry(ish) and the interior lumber is still wet.

Straight 2x4's would require cutting (oversize), drying, then planing and bundling. These would cost more of course.

Ted

[J. Z. Guest]

The only way to get a straight 2x4 is to buy 4x4s and mill them down yourself.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I'll be building a shed of sorts this summer. I went into Lowes and Home Depot and asked them to quote materials. The list contained, tubes, concrete, roofing materials, etc, but no lumber. They asked what I was building, I told them a open frame shed (pavillion, shed roof with no sides). Then he asked what I needed for lumber, I replied "I'm sorry, nothing from here. I need my boards to be straight." He looked a little disappointed, but the heck did he expect.

I buy all my lumber from two local lumber yards and one not-so local. I walk in, say I want this and that. They hand me a slip, met up the grounds rep in the yard, after he retrieves each handfull of boards he asks if they are acceptable (giving me a chance to weed out the warped stuff) and loads me. Costs a few cents more a boards, but saves me that in time and aggravation.

[Jacob Reverb]

Maybe I'm just lucky but the studs I buy at the local 84 Lumber are ALL straight as arrows.

[Grant Morris]

Chalk it up to Global Warming. :-)

[Lee Schierer]

If you notice as you are picking through the pile at the local big box stores for straight 2 x 4's, nearly all the boards in the stack are center cut. You'll see the pith in 90% of them. They will also feel damp to the touch as they only dry construction grade lumber to about 12%. Then they ship it either uncovered or covered with plastic that shreds as it goes down the highway so any rain gets the whole bunk wet.

If you select straight boards at the store, take them right home and stack and sticker them with a weight on top, they will dry nice and straight.

If you throw them in the back of your truck and leave them there in the sun, you'll have pretzels by sundown. If you store them inside without stickering you'll get some nice boat frame timbers (all curved).

Generally when I buy 2 x 4's I buy 8' or 10' as they seem to be slightly better quality than the pre-cut studs and are far better than the "economy studs" they sell.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I told them to unload it from my truck and I took the slip inside for a full refund. It's against my policy to pay for something that is very nearly useless.

Good On ya~!!

[James Hendrix]

When I worked at Sutherland's (years ago) we were not suppose to let anyone pick thru the lumber. If I had to load their order, I'd just pull from the top. If they got to load, I'd let them pick seens how they were doing my job!

The contractors had the best way - they would purchase an entire bundle and then return the defective ones.

[Matt Ocel]

Maybe I'm just lucky but the studs I buy at the local 84 Lumber are ALL straight as arrows.
Your lucky! Either that or they just opened a new bunk right before you got there, but I wouldn't take any chances, Go buy a lottery ticket!

[Barry Nelson]

I agree with Ted they are getting the timber out so quick it does not have time to season,have a nephew that works in a large mill in the southeast if NSW.they mill mostly structural grade pine ,it goes through their mill and of their lines at 400 kilimetres an hour, they cant slow it down any more.
That may be the reason for all those wavy roofs,using green timber and its drying out in situ.

[John Shuk]

No but a bunch of Creekers would post links to ads on Craigslist that advertise the wood;)

[John Shuk]

I have actually been making out pretty well at HD lately on the cull pile. They have been cutting out some nice pine and while the wood isn't perfect fo everything it is very nice for my son and I to make birdhouses. I've been getting 1x8 and 1x6 pine for $1.01 a board for a 4 footer. Lately there has been LOTS of it. They are probably going to fire the guys who culls the piles soon if he keeps it up.

[Peter Quinn]

Borg near me sells the lowest grad studs on the planet to start with. Read those little codes on the boards, there is better stuff out there. Lumber yard up the road sells KD (which for framing lumber means 12-15 percent?) premium quality material for a few pennies more. Much straighter and more predictable. If you look up the grading standards you realize the borg is actually selling the lowest grade of junk for a few pennies less than others sell the good stuff! Quite a deal I think.

Borg throws a green bunk (up to 24% moisture) in the aisle, every monkey in town turns the pack over, it dries queer, gets worse each day till someone dumps the swag in the cull pile and the cycle repeates. Fresh GREEN fir, giant HVAC system blowing in it, afore mentioned monkeys, general lack of quality (how do they get wane on all four edges sometimes?)

I don't expect framing lumber to stay straight like an arrow but between the lack of production quality and ignorant handling pratices borg lumber bites. Same goes for every other wooden product they sell. Marginal quality, minimal labor, minimum wage. 'They can screw it, go get help!'

[James Boster]

I decided to beat this game years ago. If I need a straight 2x4 or 2x6 or 2x14 whatever I fire up the woodmizer and cut my own.:D

[Fred Voorhees]

I have long ago grown weary of the far to often whining post about the big box stores. For gods sake, if you have so much to complain about, do yourself and everyone else a favor and DON'T SHOP THERE! A reasonably intelligent person would gather enough information after a visit or two or three that they are unhappy there and find their merchandise elsewhere. Only an idiot would continue to patronize the same store where they are unhappy with the end result. Nuff said.

[Matt Ocel]

I have long ago grown weary of the far to often whining post about the big box stores. For gods sake, if you have so much to complain about, do yourself and everyone else a favor and DON'T SHOP THERE! A reasonably intelligent person would gather enough information after a visit or two or three that they are unhappy there and find their merchandise elsewhere. Only an idiot would continue to patronize the same store where they are unhappy with the end result. Nuff said.

Fred - Ouch!! That hurt. Let me splain myself Lucy. When I have a big project, i.e. deck, basement finish, addition, etc. I place my order with one of the local lumberyards that I have accounts with. They supply much superior lumber than the borgs, unfortunatley, they do not carry the incedentals that the borgs do. It comes down to convience.

[Fred Voorhees]

Fred - Ouch!! That hurt. Let me splain myself Lucy. When I have a big project, i.e. deck, basement finish, addition, etc. I place my order with one of the local lumberyards that I have accounts with. They supply much superior lumber than the borgs, unfortunatley, they do not carry the incedentals that the borgs do. It comes down to convience.

Sounds as if the Home Depot lumber section is not a factor in your shopping there. Then, why p*ss and moan about it. If you shop elsewhere for your lumber needs, simply bypass the lumber section at HD the next time your making your way through HD to pick up incidentals, you will live longer since the stress levels will be decreased.

The HD and Lowes "let's gang up on the borgs" threads have become very tiring and boring. It seems that once someone has a bug up their *ss and needs to vent, it sets off the feeding frenzy and like a bunch of lemmings, everyone piles on. Did I mention that it's boring?

[Toney Robertson]

Some facts that might be useful. I have worked in or run a small lumber yard for 35 years.

First, a few years ago the allowable moisture content in lumber where you could still call it "kiln dried" was increased. IIRC that number is now either 15 or 19%. A ridiculously high number. We have gotten many units in where the lumber looked great and then as it dries to air dried levels it goes everywhere. It is getting much like treated lumber - get it in place before it dries.

Second, there is GREAT lumber out there. There is an unofficial grade of lumber called J grade. J meaning Japan. A few years back we got three units of J grade lumber in when the Japan economy was down. WOW, unbelievable lumber. It was all #1 and then it had been resorted. So it was like select #1. I pulled out MANY 2x6-10 and 14's that had at most 2-3 small pin knots the size of a pencil. There was even some that had NO knots on one side. No bark, no wain. I thought about making cabinets out of it. The problem is that we Americans are not willing to pay the price for it so it goes overseas.

Third, you can use metal studs for load bearing walls.

I agree with another poster, if you are not happy with the big boxes lumber then go to your small independent yard. I will bet they will have better stuff. I know I have been told many times that we do.

Toney

[Matt Ocel]

Sounds as if the Home Depot lumber section is not a factor in your shopping there. Then, why p*ss and moan about it. If you shop elsewhere for your lumber needs, simply bypass the lumber section at HD the next time your making your way through HD to pick up incidentals, you will live longer since the stress levels will be decreased.

The HD and Lowes "let's gang up on the borgs" threads have become very tiring and boring. It seems that once someone has a bug up their *ss and needs to vent, it sets off the feeding frenzy and like a bunch of lemmings, everyone piles on. Did I mention that it's boring?

Fred - Didn't I see you working in the lumber department at the Flemington N.J. H.D.?

[Fred Voorhees]

Fred - Didn't I see you working in the lumber department at the Flemington N.J. H.D.?


Working? No, but you very well could have seen me there since I have purchased lumber there a multitude of times....and to be honest, I haven't had a heck of a lot of problems either. Admittedly, you need to sort through the piles to get the "good stuff", but that is the price you have to pay to balance out the cheaper prices and, thankfully, HD has no problem with you sorting.

[Peter Quinn]

I have long ago grown weary of the far to often whining post about the big box stores. For gods sake, if you have so much to complain about, do yourself and everyone else a favor and DON'T SHOP THERE! A reasonably intelligent person would gather enough information after a visit or two or three that they are unhappy there and find their merchandise elsewhere. Only an idiot would continue to patronize the same store where they are unhappy with the end result. Nuff said.

Enough can never be said. While I respect your distaste for the subject I will never be silent on the issue till I get covered in six feet of dirt.

Similar to the original Borg their business pratices are viscous and predatory. They move into an area, throw tons of labor (they call it the OPENING TEAM) into the store to make it seem professional, offer a brand name tool selection and stocked shelves, using their volume to undercut local operations prices. They take enough business from the local players who have offered fair quality service often for generations to cut their throats typically operating at a loss while doing this. They opened in my small town 3 years ago with a gleaming new store filled with helpful people...you should see that pit now!

Once the competition is crushed/absorbed they quickly devolve into the biggest piece of C**P in the hardware business, reducing quality and increasing prices across the board. The OPENING TEAM has long since left and is replaced with a few overworked managers and a scattering of largely unqualified morons (there are occasional pleasant acceptions to this fact). Restocking becomes sketchy. I have seen this scenario play out numerous times in the past and I am watching it now close up in my town. On the bright side they are not doing well here.

I grew up in a family of contractors where every trade needed to build a house was represented in one relative or another. We remodeled/built innumerable homes while I was growing up and I learned the basics of several trades. The DIY boom grew up as I did, but in my family it was always DIY. I learned first hand what quality products and techniques are.

I've been observing the BORG tactics for @15 years now. As a former economist I see the game they are playing clear as day. They wind up becoming in many case the ONLY game in town, then vend mid to low grade junk across the board. They are in my mind symbolic of a major negative trend across our entire economy. If people won't support quality it goes away and its tough to get back. On the bright side their profits have been dropping quarter by quarter at a rate which cannot be fully explained by the current economic situation. Perhaps the resistance is working? Do I smell backlash?

The BORG has been in every case completely unresponsive to my suggestions, requests and complaints locally. They typically when asked to stock a better grade of anything offer to replace the dissatisfactory item with another piece of the same junk!

Be assured I do not buy my lumber or much else at the BORG anymore. But given the predatory nature of their business practices MY not shopping their is not enough to keep the better stores in business. It takes a lot of educated quality minded consumers to stop shopping there to get their attention. It is my intention to educate those who think they are getting an acceptable product at the Borg and band together with those that don't. It is my plan to fight back while I still have that option.

If you enjoy shopping there by all means do. If you do not wish to read complaints about the Borg then please don't, it is in fact optional to click these links. But please don't ever ask me to be quite about something I find regrettable and offensive.

[Lee Koepke]

I will ( and do .. ) echo Peters comments. Fortunately, I have an Ace hardware/Builders Station near my office, which is an 'old fashioned' lumberyard. I am a contractor, so I place my order at the counter, drive the truck around and they weave me thru the aisles and load me up. I visit them for as much as humanly possible for my 'generic' building needs. The finish grade stuff, cherry maple mahogany veneer goods, I get thru a millwork shop I do business with.

I had an issue with a Lowes and actually sent my complaint via their website. Two days later that stores GM called ME at home, so I told him my frustration ( dwindling wood materials and low quality ) I told him Lowes was becoming a HD, Jr -- a cheap cabinet and appliance dealer -- forgetting the place they came from, suppling BUILDING materials. He sypathized with me, as he tries to order stuff that his locals need, yet corporate sends what THEY want to push. That store lost TWO aisles of specialty plywood and select trim boards to kitchen cabinet displays.

The only reason I shop for lumber there anymore is if its the weekend and my other places are closed, or I happen to be right there and need something quick.

I keep supporting the local shops, so they MAY stay around. The big box stores ( walmart included) are slowly losing their competitive avantage in my area, and I am pleased.

[Stephen Edwards]

Where I live in a remote area of Tennessee two nearby small town have excellent independent hardward/lumber stores. Their nearest competition is a Lowes that is an hours drive from me. Interestingly, during the 10 years that I've lived here I've seen the quality of lumber go up and the prices go down at both of these independents. Both continue to expand their operations, too. At one of these places, my favorite, I drive in with my truck and go through the piles of lumber to pick what I want. I'm always careful to neatly restack what I don't want. AFTER I've loaded my truck I'll call over one of the guys working in the yard to tell him what I have. I make a list of the loaded material and tell him that I'll stop by the office and pay for it. Not many places left where one can do that!

On most items both of these stores will be a bit less expensive than Lowes. True, Lowes will beat them on some things. However, If I have an $800 order to purchase most times I'll come out 5-8% ahead by buying locally, and get better material and service.

I asked the owner of my favorite one of these stores once how they compete with the borg an hour away. I liked his reply: " we sell everything that we sell for the same price to everyone who walks through the door. If a guy comes in a buys a dozen studs, he pays the same price as the guy that buys a bundle of studs."

Several times I've needed something that they don't stock. Without fail, he'll order it for me and I'll have it within a week at the most. I will continue to support this business model, even on the rare ocassions when their item is a bit more expensive than the borg's price. I do that for two reasons. I appreciate what they're doing and the county portion of the sales tax stays in my home county.

[Toney Robertson]

Where I live in a remote area of Tennessee two nearby small town have excellent independent hardward/lumber stores. Their nearest competition is a Lowes that is an hours drive from me. Interestingly, during the 10 years that I've lived here I've seen the quality of lumber go up and the prices go down at both of these independents. Both continue to expand their operations, too. At one of these places, my favorite, I drive in with my truck and go through the piles of lumber to pick what I want. I'm always careful to neatly restack what I don't want. AFTER I've loaded my truck I'll call over one of the guys working in the yard to tell him what I have. I make a list of the loaded material and tell him that I'll stop by the office and pay for it. Not many places left where one can do that!

On most items both of these stores will be a bit less expensive than Lowes. True, Lowes will beat them on some things. However, If I have an $800 order to purchase most times I'll come out 5-8% ahead by buying locally, and get better material and service.

I asked the owner of my favorite one of these stores once how they compete with the borg an hour away. I liked his reply: " we sell everything that we sell for the same price to everyone who walks through the door. If a guy comes in a buys a dozen studs, he pays the same price as the guy that buys a bundle of studs."

Several times I've needed something that they don't stock. Without fail, he'll order it for me and I'll have it within a week at the most. I will continue to support this business model, even on the rare ocassions when their item is a bit more expensive than the borg's price. I do that for two reasons. I appreciate what they're doing and the county portion of the sales tax stays in my home county.

I wish I had more people like you in this area. The business I run would be MUCH better off.

Unfortunately Menards is just 7 miles away and Lowes is 15 or so, HD 20. My business is dying. I should have closed the doors years ago since I make almost nothing but the business was my Dad's and it would kill me to close it. I was also stupid/naive enough to believe every year that it would get better. That optimism is dead, the Borg whores win.

That being said, I have already told my wife that if things are not better by the end of the year then that is it. Depression be damned with a kid in college my wife's salary is not enough.

Life sucks sometimes but oh well hopefully Dad would understand.

Rant over.

Toney

[Peter Quinn]

[QUOTE=Toney Robertson;822204]Some facts that might be useful. I have worked in or run a small lumber yard for 35 years.

First, a few years ago the allowable moisture content in lumber where you could still call it "kiln dried" was increased. IIRC that number is now either 15 or 19%. A ridiculously high number. We have gotten many units in where the lumber looked great and then as it dries to air dried levels it goes everywhere. It is getting much like treated lumber - get it in place before it dries.

Second, there is GREAT lumber out there. There is an unofficial grade of lumber called J grade. J meaning Japan. A few years back we got three units of J grade lumber in when the Japan economy was down. WOW, unbelievable lumber. It was all #1 and then it had been resorted. So it was like select #1. I pulled out MANY 2x6-10 and 14's that had at most 2-3 small pin knots the size of a pencil. There was even some that had NO knots on one side. No bark, no wain. I thought about making cabinets out of it. The problem is that we Americans are not willing to pay the price for it so it goes overseas.

Now that is interesting information. I wonder if japanese building techniques require the use of better lumber or if they just prefer/demand it? And why the rise in MC? I imagine the timber processors must be complicit in this decision? I can tell you the 2X4 studs at my local yard look more like #2 common, and the studs at my local Borg look like they were cut out of limbs and saplings.

I remember my uncle growing up specing green bundles for new construction and KD studs for renovation. He seemed to feel movement in framing lumber was inevitable, but as long as the boards came off a fresh bundle and went in straight (and quick) they stood a chance of remaining within acceptable tolerances as the structure was dried in over several months. The bundles were kept covered and organized on the job site as the house was built to minimize radical movement prior to installation.

For renovation/additions where new wood was being secured to old work KD was always used to minimize movement problems, and because dry in typically happened at a much faster pace the boards would be forced to dry into closed walls instead of open space.

[Chris Barnett]

A man was standing alone in the woods and saw a tree fall. If he said anything, and there was not a woman present, would he still be wrong?