How is this outside bead made

[Craig D Peltier]

See how it has a shadow between the frame and the bead so its raised off.
How would I make this look like that?

Also on raised panel cutters are there cutters out there that will make the tongue extra long so a molding can be applied atop it and still show the raising of the panel?

THANKS

85734

[glenn bradley]

I'm betting on trim inside the frame openings. Notice it is between the hinge and the frame.

[Tim Malyszko]

I'm working on a similar style and make the bead seperate from the door frame rails and stiles. I run the bead using my beading bit, rip it on the tablesaw and attach it to the inside frame.

[Matt Bickford]

How I would do it: scratch stock along the majority of the length with chisels doing the corners

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Nahm....made some of those recently on a NYW project. He, as suggested above, took IIRC a 1/8" thick piece....formed it using a beading bit and then cut and placed it inside the frame.

[Craig D Peltier]

I'm betting on trim inside the frame openings. Notice it is between the hinge and the frame.

Nice observation.

So I guess a bead bit and rip it wide so it has that shadow affect will work well.

[Peter Quinn]

I've seen quirk bead made separately then applied to the face frames, and I've seen frames with the bead milled into them and the rails jack mitered into the styles. The applied bead is what I use, the jack mitered bead is maybe more traditional for fine furniture.

They make specialized machinery to produce perfect jack mitered frames with a blind dovetail key that many production cabinet makers use. M&T jack mitered beaded face frames can be made with a table saw and chisels, check FWW (Lonnie Bird) for some great pictorials.

For cutting the bead you can use a scratch stock or a beading bit on a router or shaper. Run and rip for applied beads.

Those cabs look like they were glazed to accentuate the shadows.

[Ben Grunow]

Making my whole kitchen this way using applied bead. Have done many with jack miter but time is too valuable for me and the bead stock and FF are long grainto long grain so glue up is strong.

I do, however, run the bead on my horizontal FF members to save time and add strength because the bit/setup is the same wether making bead to apply later or beading a face frame piece. They get pocket screwed in place and the vertical beads added later.

[Jim Becker]

Applied molding.

[Charles McCracken]

Also on raised panel cutters are there cutters out there that will make the tongue extra long so a molding can be applied atop it and still show the raising of the panel?


There sure are. Check out this one:

http://www.freudtools.com/images/PRODUCT/large/93.jpg

[Craig D Peltier]

There sure are. Check out this one:

http://www.freudtools.com/images/PRODUCT/large/93.jpg

Thanks Charles but theres no dimensions. If you could tell me what number it is I will look it up.
I think the tongue would need to be .75 for the applied molding an then another 1/4 to 3/8 to fit into the dadoe in the stiles and rails. So min 1 1/8 inch just for the tongue not the profile.

[Grant Morris]

It looks like some black paint was added to enhance the shadows too...

[Jim Becker]

It looks like some black paint was added to enhance the shadows too...

It's not black paint, it's a technique where a darker glaze is applied and then wiped off...what stays in the cracks, crevases and near the shadow lines adds a lot of depth. Then the piece is top coated to finish the finish. This is a very useful technique to add a lot of visual interest and insure that profiles don't get lost.

[Grant Morris]

Cheers Jim. That makes a lot of sense now that you explained it so well.

[Craig D Peltier]

There sure are. Check out this one:

http://www.freudtools.com/images/PRODUCT/large/93.jpg

I was looking in freuds book its number 99-214 it says" to adjust length of tongue us a fence". Im not understanding that. Can someone explain to me how that works. I have a hard time picturing tool set up sometimes with bits an mirror opposites etc.

[Mike Henderson]

I've done that effect before. What I do is use a beading bit and cut the bead on a matching piece of wood, as thick as the frame. Then rip the beaded piece off and glue it into the frame, cutting miters in the corners. You don't want to rip your stock first because the strip is too flexible and you'll screw up when you try to bead it (and it's hard to hold). You just have to allow for the addition of the beading when you make your opening.

You can set the beading flush, recessed (a little bit), or proud (a little bit).

Oops, Tim M. (and others) already posted that exact process.

Mike

[Matt Bickford]

Craig,
I think the way it works is that if the fence was ultimately set so that the bit is exactly centered, the length of the tongue would be 1/2n. The farther away from the centerline of the bit the fence is placed, the longer the tongue. example: if you took the extreme and walked the fence back in gradual steps so that the bit is entirely exposed, the length of the tongue would be 1/2D.

(I think that Freud is suggesting that the bit should be raised out of the table to finish height and the fence should be what is adjusted to cut the profile in steps...I think.)

[Craig D Peltier]

Craig,
I think the way it works is that if the fence was ultimately set so that the bit is exactly centered, the length of the tongue would be 1/2n. The farther away from the centerline of the bit the fence is placed, the longer the tongue. example: if you took the extreme and walked the fence back in gradual steps so that the bit is entirely exposed, the length of the tongue would be 1/2D.

(I think that Freud is suggesting that the bit should be raised out of the table to finish height and the fence should be what is adjusted to cut the profile in steps...I think.)

Wow thats a tricky one for my brain. So as you push the fence inwards the tongue would get longer. Im having a hard time visualizing this but if you can see it in your head that way I will believe ya.
The whole idea was if theres an exposed flat surface on the raised panel a molding could be applied to it. Thus the tonuge would have to be long.

[Jeff Duncan]

I mill my beads into the FF stock using a custom sized cutter and cut the miters into them.
Either method will work, but for me it's a selling point over applied beading. Every little bit helps.
good luck,
JeffD

[Vince Shriver]

I mill my beads into the FF stock using a custom sized cutter and cut the miters into them.
Either method will work, but for me it's a selling point over applied beading. Every little bit helps.
good luck,
JeffD

Do you hand cut the miters, or cut on the tablesaw or radial saw?

[Tom Lynch in NH]

Do you hand cut the miters, or cut on the tablesaw or radial saw?

The joint is often referred to as a "Jack Miter". One method is to use a router with a dedicated jig. You need to grind the post off a 45 degree chamfer bit (see pic) and use it to cut the miter in the bead as well as the rest of the joint.

Gary Katz has a good article about this on his web site which includes pictures of a relatively simple jig.

[Jeff Duncan]

Do you hand cut the miters, or cut on the tablesaw or radial saw? http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=821619)

I use the TS for mine, but I've seen a couple router jigs that looked like they would work really well. If I get another couple of beaded kitchen jobs I may keep my eye out for a haunching machine at auction. That should really improve output.
JeffD

[David DeCristoforo]

I'm an advocate of the "milled bead" school. I use a bit like this:
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=8268
to mill the bead. To cut the notches, I take out most of the waste on the band saw, then trim to size with a router/flush trim bit and a shop-made jig and clean the corners with a chisel. I cut the miters on the rails on the "chop" saw with a stop block. Then I glue and clamp up the frames and "pocket screw" the backs. M&T joints can be used but they complicate cutting the miters on the rail ends as well as the joint in general.

The joint is called a "mason's miter" or (as mentioned) a "jack miter")
85868
I have found that it really does not take any longer to do it this way than to apply separate moldings and I just like the 'integral" bead.

Yofodori DeMasaforuni

[Bill Huber]

If you look at the picture and blow it up a little you can see the miters in the corners, so it is trim and not routed in the frame.

[Charles Wilson]

I'm betting on trim inside the frame openings. Notice it is between the hinge and the frame.

I'm thinking the same thing. That is what Norm did when he was making his kitchen this past season. Pinned and glued in place.

Chuck

[Craig D Peltier]

Do you think a 1/8 bead will be to small? Thats bit I have but I can buy a bigger one.
I have decided to make the bead molding applied to the face frame and mitered corners.

[Craig D Peltier]

Also the inside trim I want to come close to in style. I looked through the freud book and didint see anything like.
Am I correct to say that it has a bead at the center of molding on the inside molding. With two lips on both side of it.
Do you think that its two moldings, one inside the other?
Sorry for all the questions. Im not a router expert for moldings.

[David DeCristoforo]

Well there's really two questions here..one about the face frame bead and another about the door/DF detail. As far as I know there are no "stock" bits specifically designed to make the door/DF detail in the pic. You need a combination of bits and a couple of passes. I think the door in the pic is done like "A" in the crummy sketch below. To do this with a raised panel is a bit "fussier". You usually need an extra "step" in the frame to get everything to look right as shown in "B". So the frames need some extra cuts also.
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DeKuni Masatasasatoforo

[Craig D Peltier]

Well there's really two questions here..one about the face frame bead and another about the door/DF detail. As far as I know there are no "stock" bits specifically designed to make the door/DF detail in the pic. You need a combination of bits and a couple of passes. I think the door in the pic is done like "A" in the crummy sketch below. To do this with a raised panel is a bit "fussier". You usually need an extra "step" in the frame to get everything to look right as shown in "B". So the frames need some extra cuts also.
85918
DeKuni Masatasasatoforo

Thanks Dekuni...;) Good idea.
The doors are inset and there flat panels.
Are these thie best suited hinges you think?
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/MP-FF90/Mepla-Beaded-Inset-Door-Hinges-1-Set I know the face frame needs 1/2 inch overlay. Even thought thye call them beaded inset door hinges I think there the same as
http://wwhardware.com/catalog.cfm/ProductID/B175H5030.21

I sometimes use the side mounted type with a face frame and just build out the sides with a block to bring out to side of frame but that takes extra time.

[David DeCristoforo]

Those will work. Any good quality "euro" style hinge will work. I'm a "Blum man" myself but the "major brands" are pretty much equal in quality. I try to stay away from the cheaper stuff because sometimes they don't hold their adjustments as well and with "fitted" doors that can drive ya bananas....

David DeSotomoto

[Craig D Peltier]

Those will work. Any good quality "euro" style hinge will work. I'm a "Blum man" myself but the "major brands" are pretty much equal in quality. I try to stay away from the cheaper stuff because sometimes they don't hold their adjustments as well and with "fitted" doors that can drive ya bananas....

David DeSotomoto
The blums are double what the forst ones were. I like blums too. I need 18 prs though.

[Ben Grunow]

I make my beading stock alittle less than 3/8" and it looks right- plus, all the top kitchen manufacturers are using the same profile so it must be right or totally wrong. My bit is Freud but I dont know which.

joint-route-rip-joint-route-rip........

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

That's a "Wood Mode" cabinet door isn't it?

They use a profile bead cutter and assemble it sort of like an old style colonial door frame with the beading. The beads end up aligning in the corners.

Bear in mind that they also apply a glazing to the finish to highlite the textures.
I think it's sprayed wiped on after the first coat of finish and wiped off really well by hand. The dark color gets in the recesses of the finish and the molding making everything look a touch more dramatic.

[Craig D Peltier]

That's a "Wood Mode" cabinet door isn't it?

They use a profile bead cutter and assemble it sort of like an old style colonial door frame with the beading. The beads end up aligning in the corners.

Bear in mind that they also apply a glazing to the finish to highlite the textures.
I think it's sprayed wiped on after the first coat of finish and wiped off really well by hand. The dark color gets in the recesses of the finish and the molding making everything look a touch more dramatic.

Its here http://www.kitchenplace.com/FEimages/largedoor/roanoke.jpg

[Craig Thompson]

Craig,

I have to agree with our new friend "David DeSotomoto". Milling the the bead into the face frame is the coolest way to go... Does not take that much more time, and it just feels a little more high end.

We just did our kitchen with the beaded face frame, and love it. I'll add another option to the two options that Hiroshima Dave offered on the hinges... I too am a blum man and used the 71T5580(inserta) or 71T5550(screw-in) and the 175H190_H9 mounting plate.... BUT instead of building out the cabinet at the hing point, I shrink up the box to be flush with the face frame wich looks real clean. This works well if you have lots of exposed cabinet sides that you plan on using decorative sides on. It allows you to finish the full cabinet side with a solid panel/door so each piece looks like furniture instead of tacked on doors.

In order to eliminate some of the 'hand work' of doing the face frame work... a jig and mortice machine set to 45 degrees can save alot of time.

Just my worthless 2 pennies.

[Craig D Peltier]

Craig,

I have to agree with our new friend "David DeSotomoto". Milling the the bead into the face frame is the coolest way to go... Does not take that much more time, and it just feels a little more high end.

We just did our kitchen with the beaded face frame, and love it. I'll add another option to the two options that Hiroshima Dave offered on the hinges... I too am a blum man and used the 71T5580(inserta) or 71T5550(screw-in) and the 175H190_H9 mounting plate.... BUT instead of building out the cabinet at the hing point, I shrink up the box to be flush with the face frame wich looks real clean. This works well if you have lots of exposed cabinet sides that you plan on using decorative sides on. It allows you to finish the full cabinet side with a solid panel/door so each piece looks like furniture instead of tacked on doors.

In order to eliminate some of the 'hand work' of doing the face frame work... a jig and mortice machine set to 45 degrees can save alot of time.

Just my worthless 2 pennies.
So if you have two boxes that meet. There might be a decent sized gap in between then that you never see because its behind the framework. Is that correct. Thus letting you bring the face fram to edge of box but not lose the width of astetics.
This is just a built in about 7.5 tall and 12 feet wide. It doesnt have open shelves and more up top or granite but everything else is the same.
I will take a look t-morrow at the explanation by yoshiku namamachi on the beaded frame again.
85957

[Craig Thompson]

So if you have two boxes that meet. There might be a decent sized gap in between then that you never see because its behind the framework. Is that correct. Thus letting you bring the face fram to edge of box but not lose the width of astetics.85957

................correct, it in fact wastes an inch of cabinets space... but the payoff is, ease of build, and a clean appearance inside the cabinet.

[Peter Quinn]

Considering your question about the raised panel tongue I think you may be seeing this wrong. Typically on a door with applied molding (bolection) most of the body of that molding rides on the rails and styles. The molding by design projects above the plane of the rest of the door when viewed from the side. A rabbit is milled into the back side of the molding and only a small portion of the inside edge intersects with the panel, so no giant tongue (flat) is necessary. Also the exact location of the molding/tongue intersection is usually set by the depth of the rabbit on the back of the bolection eliminating the necessity for a very deep panel tongue.

I hope that's not too confusing. Maybe someone has a good sketch they can post as I am unable to upload the picture in my minds eye.

You may also see mitered door frames which allow an inside molding which appears flush with the rails/styles, and in this case the groove is contained in this molding as it is integral with the style/rail stock.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Its here http://www.kitchenplace.com/FEimages/largedoor/roanoke.jpg

Yah that's a scarf joint. I'm pretty sure that's what it's called. You can get the same result with applied beading.

It's really just a question of which cow you are in the mood to milk.

[Craig D Peltier]

Considering your question about the raised panel tongue I think you may be seeing this wrong. Typically on a door with applied molding (bolection) most of the body of that molding rides on the rails and styles. The molding by design projects above the plane of the rest of the door when viewed from the side. A rabbit is milled into the back side of the molding and only a small portion of the inside edge intersects with the panel, so no giant tongue (flat) is necessary. Also the exact location of the molding/tongue intersection is usually set by the depth of the rabbit on the back of the bolection eliminating the necessity for a very deep panel tongue.

I hope that's not too confusing. Maybe someone has a good sketch they can post as I am unable to upload the picture in my minds eye.

You may also see mitered door frames which allow an inside molding which appears flush with the rails/styles, and in this case the groove is contained in this molding as it is integral with the style/rail stock.

No I understand now.Someone did put a sketch on here like that. I think it was nakimichi (sp) AKA david. Thank you for explaining more.
I would like to 45 the stiles and rails , the doors are inset. Its alot easier to square up butt joints than 45s for inset doors.If they were overlays I would miter them.I m swayed neither way as of now.

[Dave Burris]

I was just wondering ... would it be possible to use a hollow chisel mortiser to cut the majority of the notched portion from the style as you have it in your picture? This would only leave the two outside 45's to contend with. I apologize if this has already been mentioned but there is a lot of infomation in this thread and it is starting to run together in my head.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...would it be possible to use a hollow chisel mortiser to cut the majority of the notched portion..."

Yes...possible. Not the "best" way perhaps but possible.

Bagwan Rasneesh